Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[swiftwin]

What do you think Dorion does better than Dubas?

Off the top of my head:

Signing RFAs
Building a D core
Drafting
Not being loyal to a fault

edit:
The only thing Dubas is better at is nickel and diming late draft picks

 

[Very Stable Genius]

What do you think Dorion does better than Dubas?

He has the best smug look in the business.

 

[Bileur]

Perhaps you could say that in the first couple of years he was there, but he has made a lot of moves in the recent years to get away from the 'soft hockey' narrative that has plagued his team.

He added:

Schenn
Simmonds
Muzzin
Acciari
Bogosian
Bunting
Lafferty
Foligno
Lyubushkin
Clifford
Boyle

His issue was that the team's core was soft as butter and no matter who they got to surround them to play ' hard' hockey, they weren't going to change and he held on that core for too long instead of making changes with 1 of them.

Tough depth players does not a tough team make. You need physical top 6 forwards and D, which he hasn’t prioritized.

His draft record also has to be considered. Aside from Knies and some late round flyers, lots of premium picks are spent on smaller skilled players. I’m not saying don’t draft those guys, I actually like a few home run picks, but he clearly doesn’t prioritize physicality.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Off the top of my head:

Signing RFAs
Building a D core
Drafting
Not being loyal to a fault

Building a D core hasn't exactly been a strength of Dorion.

Drafting is mainly Mann's responsibility and GMs always get too much credit or blame for it.

But agreed on signing RFAs. I have long maintained it's not difficult to sign RFAs to big long-term contracts given they lack the ability to go elsewhere, which is why it was unbelievable that Dubas gave in to Matthews' demand of only a 6 year extension at massive money. Shouldn't have even been an option.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Off the top of my head:

Signing RFAs
Building a D core
Drafting
Not being loyal to a fault

Dorion is the worst in the league at building a dcore. It has crippled us every time we tried to be competitive.

If Dorion folded so badly against Brady and Norris you seriously think he would have done better negotiating with Marner and Matthews?

Drafting? have you looked at our prospect cupboards. It's one of the worst in the league, probably worse than Toronto's and we haven't even made the playoffs yet!

 

[Micklebot]

What do you think Dorion does better than Dubas?

cup throws.

 

[swiftwin]

Building a D core hasn't exactly been a strength of Dorion.

Drafting is mainly Mann's responsibility and GMs always get too much credit or blame for it.

But agreed on signing RFAs. I have long maintained it's not difficult to sign RFAs to big long-term contracts given they lack the ability to go elsewhere, which is why it was unbelievable that Dubas gave in to Matthews' demand of only a 6 year extension at massive money. Shouldn't have even been an option.

Chabot
Chychrun
Sanderson
Zub

vs

Rielly
Brodie
Holl
McCabe

C'mon man......

Dorion is the worst in the league at building a dcore. It has crippled us every time we tried to be competitive.

If Dorion folded so badly against Brady and Norris you seriously think he would have done better negotiating with Marner and Matthews?

Drafting? have you looked at our prospect cupboards. It's one of the worst in the league, probably worse than Toronto's and we haven't even made the playoffs yet!

Our prospect cupboard is empty because Dorion's draft picks are all playing for the Sens right now.

How many Leafs players were drafted by Dubas? Liljegren? Knies? That's it? Pathetic.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Chabot
Chychrun
Sanderson
Zub

vs

Rielly
Brodie
Holl
McCabe

C'mon man......


Our prospect cupboard is empty because Dorion's draft picks are all playing for the Sens right now.

How many Leafs players were drafted by Dubas? Liljegren? Knies? That's it? Pathetic.

The ones we drafted high while tanking for 7 years are playing in the NHL and our prospects have zero competition to walk into the club. That's not a good thing.

Also a little different drafting as a 100 point team and trading picks to improve the team every year.

 

[Micklebot]

Dorion is the worst in the league at building a dcore. It has crippled us every time we tried to be competitive.

The dcore we are going into next season with actually looks pretty darn good imho.

Chychrun, 25 yrs old; 23rd in pts/60 all situations over the last 3 years (1000+ mins)
Chabot, 26 yrs old; 41st in pts/60 all situations over the last 3 years (1000+ mins)
Sanderson, 20 yrs old; Stud young 2 way defender looking like a potential #1 for years to come
Zub, 27 yrs old; solid 2 way defender, leans towards the defensive side.
Brannstrom, 23 yrs old; Taken big steps last year, can play up the lineup and on both special teams
Kleven, 21 yrs old, mobile. physical defensive dman that can blast the puck
JBD, 22 yrs old, utility guy that plays a safe game.

That's a young, mobile group, with a fair bit of puck moving potential, I think teams will be jealous of that group in the next 3 years.

 

[swiftwin]

The ones we drafted high while tanking for 7 years are playing in the NHL and they literally have zero competition to walk into the club.

A little different drafting as a 100 point team and trading picks to improve the team every year.

In one season alone, Dorion simultaneously went further in the playoffs (ECF) and drafted better (Batherson + Formenton) than Dubas has in his entire 5 year tenure.

You can, in fact, go far in the playoffs and draft well at the same time.

edit: Also, are we doing the whole "7 years" debate thing again?

 

[bicboi64]

When it comes to loyalty, Dorion is so much worse than Dubas. Dubas absolutely bungled his extensions, but to move them would need authorization from MLSE. But he hasn't been hesitant to move contracts that he found bad. He moved Zaitsev, Johnsson, Kapanen, etc... and didn't anchor the leafs with long term deals like Hyman or Campbell.

Dorion took forever to move Zaitsev, was dumb enough to get Murray in the first place (granted Dubas is dumb to take a chance on Murray), and still employs DJ despite his awful starts.

I don't want Dubas here at all, but any complaints about "loyalty", lol.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

The dcore we are going into next season with actually looks pretty darn good imho.

Chychrun, 25 yrs old; 23rd in pts/60 all situations over the last 3 years (1000+ mins)
Chabot, 26 yrs old; 41st in pts/60 all situations over the last 3 years (1000+ mins)
Sanderson, 20 yrs old; Stud young 2 way defender looking like a potential #1 for years to come
Zub, 27 yrs old; solid 2 way defender, leans towards the defensive side.
Brannstrom, 23 yrs old; Taken big steps last year, can play up the lineup and on both special teams
Kleven, 21 yrs old, mobile. physical defensive dman that can blast the puck
JBD, 22 yrs old, utility guy that plays a safe game.

That's a young, mobile group, with a fair bit of puck moving potential, I think teams will be jealous of that group in the next 3 years.

Yes finally after 7 years and multiple top 10 picks used we have a good d-core.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

In one season alone, Dorion simultaneously went further in the playoffs (ECF) and drafted better (Batherson + Formenton) than Dubas has in his entire 5 year tenure.

You can, in fact, go far in the playoffs and draft well at the same time.

edit: Also, are we doing the whole "7 years" debate thing again?

The ECF had nothing to do with Dorion and everything to do with Karlsson and Boucher.

In fact had Dorion not traded a future 1c for a much worse 3rd liner and gotten better depth we would have likely won the cup that year.

But Dorion killed that.

 

[swiftwin]

When it comes to loyalty, Dorion is so much worse than Dubas. Dubas absolutely bungled his extensions, but to move them would need authorization from MLSE. But he hasn't been hesitant to move contracts that he found bad. He moved Zaitsev, Johnsson, Kapanen, etc... and didn't anchor the leafs with long term deals like Hyman or Campbell.

Dorion took forever to move Zaitsev, was dumb enough to get Murray in the first place (granted Dubas is dumb to take a chance on Murray), and still employs DJ despite his awful starts.

I don't want Dubas here at all, but any complaints about "loyalty", lol.

Really? Dorion has had absolutely no issues moving players out when needed. He had no problem putting Zack Smith on waivers even if it upset the team. Moved Dadonov after only one year. Moved Paquette and Galchenyuk mere months after acquiring them. Bought out White despite him being so beloved in the room, Etc.

 

[swiftwin]

The ECF had nothing to do with Dorion and everything to do with Karlsson and Boucher.

In fact had Dorion not traded a future 1c for a much worse 3rd liner and gotten better depth we would have likely won the cup that year.

But Dorion killed that.

So I guess that's another thing Dorion is better at: Hiring coaches.

I also don't know how Zibanejad would have helped us win the cup that year. Brass was better. Heck, we even played against Zibanejad, and Bass was the better player that series.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

So I guess that's another thing Dorion is better at: Hiring coaches.

I also don't know how Zibanejad would have helped us win the cup that year. Brass was better. Heck, we even played against Zibanejad, and Bass was the better player that series.

No he was not lol. Brassard lit it up first round against Bruins thanks to Bobby and EK and proceeded to vanish with like 2 points in the last 11 games.

Zibanejad was way better that playoffs.

In fact when the trade happened I believe Brassard himself was shocked as to why he would be traded for a younger better player ( + a second)

 

[swiftwin]

No he was not lol. Brassard lit it up first round against Bruins thanks to Bobby and EK and proceeded to vanish with like 2 points in the last 11 games.

Zibanejad was way better that playoffs.

In fact when the trade happened I believe Brassard himself was shocked as to why he would be traded for a younger better player ( + a second)

Brass was playing with a torn labrum later in the playoffs.

Knock off the revisionism dude. That's like 5 posts in a row where you're plainly and easily provably wrong.

 

[hockeywiz542]

Interesting. Wonder if he's stepping away from the game?

 

[swiftwin]

Yes finally after 7 years and multiple top 10 picks used we have a good d-core.

6 years ago, we were in the conference finals.

 

[Byron Bitz]

Reading some of these comments you would think the results these two GMs have had were reversed

 

[Micklebot]

Yes finally after 7 years and multiple top 10 picks used we have a good d-core.

Shackles are off. That's definitely part of it,

But, we were trying to be competitive for maybe 3 seasons?

Year 1, we went to the ECF, the group of Karlsson, Methot, Phaneuf, Ceci, Boro, and Wideman may not have been the best, but it was competitive. That said, Dorion didn't really build it.

Year 2, collapse started, Methot gone had to replace him with a budget piece in Oduya, certainly not an unrestricted addition, Melnyk likely pulling the purse strings. Half way through that season, the train was off the rails and we were no longer looking to be competitive, start of the rebuild.

Year 3, selling off.

Year 4, still selling off

Year 5, Start to try (signed Dadonov)

Year 6, developing internally while dealing with some miscues (Murray and Dadonov)

Year 7, Meaningful games target.

The problem is you need to take into account what the team is trying to accomplish, and base your evaluation on the actual goal they are trying to achieve.

Oh no, we had a terrible D in years we wanted to draft high... sort of party of the game plan there...

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Brass was playing with a torn labrum later in the playoffs.

Knock off the revisionism dude. That's like 5 posts in a row where you're plainly and easily provably wrong.

Was he playing with a torn labrum the entire time he was with us? And why are you saying that Brassard was better then? In the NYR series Zibanejad was their best forward easy.

The Zibanejad + 2nd for Brassard is one of the worst trades in NHL history. Analyzed through any angle it horrific.

And Dorion, just to prove he hasn't lost his touch makes the jr version of that trade all these years later with Gustavsson for Talbot. True genius.

 

[Micklebot]

Reading some of these comments you would think the results these two GMs have had were reversed

I mean, when it matters, one team went to the ECF, then had a massive tear down and has been rebuilding since, the other won a single series against a bruised and tired Tampa team through the prime of it 1OA poster boy.

Neither GM has much to brag about, but at least Dorion can try to claim that he's put us on the path to future success

 

[swiftwin]

Shackles are off. That's definitely part of it,

But, we were trying to be competitive for maybe 3 seasons?

Year 1, we went to the ECF, the group of Karlsson, Methot, Phaneuf, Ceci, Boro, and Wideman may not have been the best, but it was competitive. That said, Dorion didn't really build it.

Year 2, collapse started, Methot gone had to replace him with a budget piece in Oduya, certainly not an unrestricted addition, Melnyk likely pulling the purse strings. Half way through that season, the train was off the rails and we were no longer looking to be competitive, start of the rebuild.

Year 3, selling off.

Year 4, still selling off

Year 5, Start to try (signed Dadonov)

Year 6, developing internally while dealing with some miscues (Murray and Dadonov)

Year 7, Meaningful games target.

The problem is you need to take into account what the team is trying to accomplish, and base your evaluation on the actual goal they are trying to achieve.

Oh no, we had a terrible D in years we wanted to draft high... sort of party of the game plan there...

Exactly.

And on the flip side of this, the Leafs have been in the playoffs and trying to compete for a Stanley Cup for those same 7 years. After 5 years on the job, trying to build a cup contender, all Dubas could muster for a top 4 was:

Rielly
Brodie
Holl
McCabe

Utterly pathetic.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Shackles are off. That's definitely part of it,

But, we were trying to be competitive for maybe 3 seasons?

Year 1, we went to the ECF, the group of Karlsson, Methot, Phaneuf, Ceci, Boro, and Wideman may not have been the best, but it was competitive. That said, Dorion didn't really build it.

Year 2, collapse started, Methot gone had to replace him with a budget piece in Oduya, certainly not an unrestricted addition, Melnyk likely pulling the purse strings. Half way through that season, the train was off the rails and we were no longer looking to be competitive, start of the rebuild.

Year 3, selling off.

Year 4, still selling off

Year 5, Start to try (signed Dadonov)

Year 6, developing internally while dealing with some miscues (Murray and Dadonov)

Year 7, Meaningful games target.

The problem is you need to take into account what the team is trying to accomplish, and base your evaluation on the actual goal they are trying to achieve.

Oh no, we had a terrible D in years we wanted to draft high... sort of party of the game plan there...

My point is that if you give a monkey high picks to draft, and to throw around to acquire unhappy d on tanking teams, and mark stones to trade and the good fortune of picking high enough to get a Sanderson.

You would have a good d-core. There is so much talent in the league, coming in and moving around that building a good d core is not as hard as Dorion has made it look.