Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[swiftwin]

Oh and when Dubas took over, Matthews was 20, Marner was 21, Nylander was 22 and Rielly was 24.

That team was trying to win playoff rounds but our team is still to young to try and make the playoffs?

I never said our team was too young to make the playoffs. I'm saying we should have made the playoffs this year if not for the injuries to Norris and our goalies.

 

[DaveMatthew]

I never said our team was too young to make the playoffs. I'm saying we should have made the playoffs this year if not for the injuries to Norris and our goalies.

And if it wasn't for having to play some combination of Zaitsev/Holden in the lineup for 65 games, and if wasn't for having next to no depth in the bottom 6 after Mathieu Joseph cashed out and didn't show up, and if it wasn't for keeping a coach who once again, could not get through November without being at the bottom of the standings.

Those things didn't help.

Like I said, it's perfectly fair to criticize Dubas for many of his decisions. It's easy to understand why he's out of a job today.

But to then turn around and act as if Dorion hasn't made just as many blunders? Bizarre.

I think it's time for both franchises to bring in new GMs.

 

[Bileur]

I never said our team was too young to make the playoffs. I'm saying we should have made the playoffs this year if not for the injuries to Norris and our goalies.

If injuries are a valid excuse then why are you excluding Muzzin from your comparisons?

 

[Sens Vader]

I’m not a Kyle Dubas fan but the thought of going to a rival team after being let go is dramatic and fun

 

[JungleBeat]

There’s more discussions on this board about the Leafs and Dubas than Dorion and his terrible moves.

I’d take just about anyone over Pierre Dorion.

 

[aragorn]

Dubas out - Dorion still here.

 

[Senscore]

I’m not a Kyle Dubas fan but the thought of going to a rival team after being let go is dramatic and fun

You know he'd be hungry to get revenge.

That being said given his demands and expectations, I think it will probably be Pittsburgh for him. But new ownership here may change things quickly.

 

[Sens Vader]

You know he'd be hungry to get revenge.

That being said given his demands and expectations, I think it will probably be Pittsburgh for him. But new ownership here may change things quickly.

If I’m a GM I’m picking Ottawa over Pittsburgh easily

Way more job security and a lot more roster potential imo

But yeah money talks

 

[JungleBeat]

Kind of sad that Murray and Dorion delivered nothing in their tenures here. What a dark era to be a Sens fan.

 

[otown]

It would be an upgrade to bring Dubas to Ottawa but given his own gaffes, it would be a mistake.
He will show up with another franchise making the $$ the Leafs wouldn't give him and opted not to sign an extension with him.
Might be in a role similar to Shanahan.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Interesting. Wonder if he's stepping away from the game?

Seems like the decision is being made for him at this point.



late to this party; You could do worse than Dubas for sure. I think we have seen that first hand. I would not want him for GM of the Sens although I'd be willing to let him do what he can to push us over the top. Dorion's clock has ticked out here . Terrible at evaluating his own team and terrible at evaluating who might help it from the pro ranks.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

Dorion signed Giroux (I know slamdunk but still signed him).

Made trade for Chychrun. Signed Stutzle to an orgasmic extension.

Signed Tkachuk, Batherson, Norris in either excellent value or very fair value deals that will appear bargains in second half.

Made trade for best goal-scorer available.

He did fail to add a top 4 when we seriously needed it (last off-season) and it seemed like it was imminent (how close we were in on Burns and other talks).

Dorion doesn't seem to have that killer ability, though. Seems to make moves reactively rather than proactively. But Dorion unshackled seems promising.

Dubas has proven he can pull the trigger on big time moves and he is a die-hard Sens fan growing up. Seems like perfect fit for him to finish off the core and build off his experiences during his tenure in Toronto.

I also feel Dubas was put in an extremely difficult situation. The core was set. Matthews, Marner, Nylander. He had to trust em. The extensions were horrific, though and the Tavares signing was baffling (with the state of their D). That's what really scares me with Dubas.

 

[swiftwin]

Dorion doesn't seem to have that killer ability, though.

Dorion has been criticized of doing the opposite though (see: Duchene).

People seem way too focused on the short term. Yes we needed a top 4 defenseman at the beginning of the season. But was it critical to the success of the rebuild to acquire one at the beginning of the season instead of half way through? Absolutely not.

The deal for Chychrun was an absolute steal. Such a deal was not available to us at the beginning of the season. Dorion made the right move by staying patient.

 

[Micklebot]

My point is that if you give a monkey high picks to draft, and to throw around to acquire unhappy d on tanking teams, and mark stones to trade and the good fortune of picking high enough to get a Sanderson.

You would have a good d-core. There is so much talent in the league, coming in and moving around that building a good d core is not as hard as Dorion has made it look.

There are lots of teams over the years that have proven that wrong.

But again, having a good D is something you want when you are trying to compete, and something you don't really care as much about when the goal is to draft high.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Building a D core hasn't exactly been a strength of Dorion.

Drafting is mainly Mann's responsibility and GMs always get too much credit or blame for it.

But agreed on signing RFAs. I have long maintained it's not difficult to sign RFAs to big long-term contracts given they lack the ability to go elsewhere, which is why it was unbelievable that Dubas gave in to Matthews' demand of only a 6 year extension at massive money. Shouldn't have even been an option.

Matthew’s was 5 years, so worse.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Dorion has been criticized of doing the opposite though (see: Duchene).

People seem way too focused on the short term. Yes we needed a top 4 defenseman at the beginning of the season. But was it critical to the success of the rebuild to acquire one at the beginning of the season instead of half way through? Absolutely not.

The deal for Chychrun was an absolute steal. Such a deal was not available to us at the beginning of the season. Dorion made the right move by staying patient.

John Marino was available in the summer for a 2nd round pick + prospect.

Is Jake Chychrun better than John Marino? Yes.

But would the "rebuild" be in better shape if we had John Marino + a 1st in 2023 instead of Jake Chychrun and a 2nd in 2023?

Potentially.

The idea that this rebuild has been perfectly executed, like you seem to believe, is baffling. There's been a lot of good. And a lot of bad. Which is why we are where we are. A team with potential but no sure bet to make the playoffs next year, or the year after.

Outside of the Ottawa market, the perception of Ottawa's future from impartial observers, compared to other NHL teams, is not nearly as rosy.

And with all that said, for new owners, the past won't matter that much when it comes to Dorion and DJ. They won't dwell on whether it was smart to bring in Eric Gudbranson for 1 season.

The question they, and their advisors, will ask is, "Are these the two who will take this team from meaningful games to Stanley Cup contention?"

I would bet that the consensus will be, in the words of Daniel Alfredsson, "probably not."

 

[Golden_Jet]

Yes finally after 7 years and multiple top 10 picks used we have a good d-core.

Math is still hard I see

 

[Hale The Villain]

Matthew’s was 5 years, so worse.

Grounds for dismissal.

Just mindnumbingly stupid to give in to that demand.

Not like he got a discount in AAV either.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Grounds for dismissal.

Just mindnumbingly stupid to give in to that demand.

Not like he got a discount in AAV either.

The Matthews question is interesting. Was that a Dubas decision? A Shanahan decision? Or an MLSE decision?

Matthews is a moneymaker for that organization. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that MLSE said to give him whatever he wanted and not rock the boat. One of Dubas' apparent asks in this round of negotiations was "more autonomy", after all.

It'll be interesting to see what approach the new GM takes. There are already rumors that Matthews wants a short-deal at max dollars so he can cash in again at 28 years old. If he asks for 3 years at 14M per, they should put him on the trade block the second he utters those words. But would MLSE step in and say, "3 more years of jersey sales... keep him."

We'll see.

The interesting thing with the Leafs is that there's not a singular owner solely focused on winning. There's no Steinbrenner or Lacob. It's a corporate board. Yes, they'd like to win. But they also want to minimize risk.

 

[aragorn]

The problem with so many trades from a fan perspective is that we don't know in so many instances what it is that the other side wants back. We found out through rumour though that some teams were interested in Pinto & I for one am very happy they have not traded Pinto who IMO has #1/2 C potential although he might not reach that here. I would not be surprised if other teams were asking for Pinto in a package for a top 4 RD, I certainly would.

Also just because a team gave another team something of greater value for less return means they would do the same for us & vice versus. Not all players are valued the same by all managers or not all teams want the same players especially if they are trading for need. If they don't need or want the guy we are willing to give up then how does a deal get done? Or if the guy they want we don't want to give up. Deals are much harder to make than I think most fans including me appreciate.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

There are lots of teams over the years that have proven that wrong.

But again, having a good D is something you want when you are trying to compete, and something you don't really care as much about when the goal is to draft high.

How many GMs in league history inherited top players in their prime to trade off freely AND 7 years of tanking?

And I don't believe that. Had we been better in acquiring good d instead of pencilling in Hamonic on the top 4 and Zaitsev on the top pair before that we would have been better sooner and probably in the playoffs already.

But here we are. No playoffs for 7 years and 1 week of seriously challenging for a playoff spot in that entire span...


The only reason this rebuild isnt off the rails is because we had the good fortune of getting Stutzle and Sanderson. Without them it would be a laughing stock.

 

[Micklebot]

How many GMs in league history inherited top players in their prime to trade off freely AND 7 years of tanking?

And I don't believe that. Had we been better in acquiring good d instead of pencilling in Hamonic on the top 4 and Zaitsev on the top pair before that we would have been better sooner and probably in the playoffs already.

But here we are. No playoffs for 7 years and 1 week of seriously challenging for a playoff spot in that entire span...


The only reason this rebuild isnt off the rails is because we had the good fortune of getting Stutzle and Sanderson. Without them it would be a laughing stock.

Going to the ECF is tanking now? This is only our 6th season missing the playoffs, not 7th,

Had we been better sooner we wouldn't save Sanderson, for example, we may not have had the asset to acquire Chychrun since our pick wouldn't project as high.

There were a lot of hurdles along the way, you of course know about them, you know about the situation with Karlsson and Hoffman absolutely tanking Hoffman's value, you know about how Melnyk was trying to attach Ryan's contract to any Karlsson deal, you know that every deal was financially driven, you know all this and yet you still try to spin 6 years into 7, so I really don't see the point in trying to convince you of anything, your mind is set, no facts will sway you.

 

[Adrianopolous]

I wonder what that goofball Spezza will do now

 

[Golden_Jet]

How many GMs in league history inherited top players in their prime to trade off freely AND 7 years of tanking?

And I don't believe that. Had we been better in acquiring good d instead of pencilling in Hamonic on the top 4 and Zaitsev on the top pair before that we would have been better sooner and probably in the playoffs already.

But here we are. No playoffs for 7 years and 1 week of seriously challenging for a playoff spot in that entire span...


The only reason this rebuild isnt off the rails is because we had the good fortune of getting Stutzle and Sanderson. Without them it would be a laughing stock.

Still bad at Math

 

[Micklebot]

John Marino was available in the summer for a 2nd round pick + prospect.

Is Jake Chychrun better than John Marino? Yes.

But would the "rebuild" be in better shape if we had John Marino + a 1st in 2023 instead of Jake Chychrun and a 2nd in 2023?

Potentially.

The idea that this rebuild has been perfectly executed, like you seem to believe, is baffling. There's been a lot of good. And a lot of bad. Which is why we are where we are. A team with potential but no sure bet to make the playoffs next year, or the year after.

Outside of the Ottawa market, the perception of Ottawa's future from impartial observers, compared to other NHL teams, is not nearly as rosy.

And with all that said, for new owners, the past won't matter that much when it comes to Dorion and DJ. They won't dwell on whether it was smart to bring in Eric Gudbranson for 1 season.

The question they, and their advisors, will ask is, "Are these the two who will take this team from meaningful games to Stanley Cup contention?"

I would bet that the consensus will be, in the words of Daniel Alfredsson, "probably not."

I think the rebuild is somewhere in the middle, mistakes were made (Murray, Dadonov, for example) some risks were taken (DeBrincat) but the future certainly looks promising

No GM gets everything right, if the standard is perfection you'll be perpetually disappointed. There are moves to be critical of to be sure, not convinced a hypothetical acquisition of Marino that we don't even know what the actual cost of instead of Chychrun would have been is one of them, time will shine some light on that I suppose, but if your going to be critical (not specifically refering to you here) you should be fair in the criticisms and acknowledge the successes.

Some people are going way to far one way, and other people way to far the other. Truth lies in the middle ground imo.