Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[hamzarocks]

Dubas might work in Ottawa as the Sens signed most of their core to good deals already

If Tkachuk, Stuztle, Batherson, Chabot, etc were RFAs in the year he was hired, your team is f***ed.

Just be ready for the organization to be littered with SSM alumni.

Sens are on upward progression, get a good goalie and another piece to upgrade the Debrincat trade which didn't work out and I see them being done their rebuild and transitioning to young contender status

 

[Golden_Jet]

Dubas might work in Ottawa as the Sens signed most of their core to good deals already

If Tkachuk, Stuztle, Batherson, Chabot, etc were RFAs in the year he was hired, your team is f***ed.

Just be ready for the organization to be littered with SSM alumni.

Sens are on upward progression, get a good goalie and another piece to upgrade the Debrincat trade which didn't work out and I see them being done their rebuild and transitioning to young contender status

Sounds like Ottawa would be better with PD then.
I could see KD interested in Ottawa job though, since that was his childhood team.

 

[hockeywiz542]

SIMMONS SAYS: Big skilled centres such as Auston Matthews are irreplacable

Everything about the Maple Leafs has to start with Auston Matthews.

torontosun.com

Everything about the Maple Leafs has to start with Auston Matthews.

Getting him signed. Getting him committed to Toronto long-term. Building this next phase of the Maple Leafs around an all-star calibre centre of size.

You don’t win the Stanley Cup without a front-line centre. And you don’t trade away Matthews — or let him walk in free agency — because you can’t replace a player of that calibre.

Colorado won the Cup last year with Nathan MacKinnon. Over the past 10 seasons, Jonathan Toews has won two Cups, as have Sidney Crosby, Evgeni Malkin and Brayden Point. Other Cup-winners include Anze Kopitar along with Nicklas Backstrom and Evgeny Kuznetsov. Big-time centres, all of them.

Without Matthews, the Leafs have nothing resembling a No. 1 centre. And maybe, after the stunning news of Friday, Matthews’ time in Toronto got more complicated when president Brendan Shanahan chose to remove Kyle Dubas as general manager.

Here’s the thing with Matthews: His agent and good friend, Judd Moldaver, is close to Dubas, but even closer to Dubas’ agent and friend, Chris Armstrong. Dubas and Armstrong went to Brock University together. Armstrong and Moldaver worked for IMG in Toronto together and went different ways before ending up at Wasserman Media, an agency that represents Connor McDavid and Matthews, among its largest NHL stars.

How much of the Moldaver-Matthews-Armstrong-Dubas relationship will impact Matthews’ future with the Leafs? That’s impossible to know without a general manager in place, with so much unknown about the Leafs’ immediate front-office circumstance and their most important player.

 

[Golden_Jet]

SIMMONS SAYS: Big skilled centres such as Auston Matthews are irreplacable

Everything about the Maple Leafs has to start with Auston Matthews.

torontosun.com

Everything about the Maple Leafs has to start with Auston Matthews.

Getting him signed. Getting him committed to Toronto long-term. Building this next phase of the Maple Leafs around an all-star calibre centre of size.

You don’t win the Stanley Cup without a front-line centre. And you don’t trade away Matthews — or let him walk in free agency — because you can’t replace a player of that calibre.

Colorado won the Cup last year with Nathan MacKinnon. Over the past 10 seasons, Jonathan Toews has won two Cups, as have Sidney Crosby, Evgeni Malkin and Brayden Point. Other Cup-winners include Anze Kopitar along with Nicklas Backstrom and Evgeny Kuznetsov. Big-time centres, all of them.

Without Matthews, the Leafs have nothing resembling a No. 1 centre. And maybe, after the stunning news of Friday, Matthews’ time in Toronto got more complicated when president Brendan Shanahan chose to remove Kyle Dubas as general manager.

Here’s the thing with Matthews: His agent and good friend, Judd Moldaver, is close to Dubas, but even closer to Dubas’ agent and friend, Chris Armstrong. Dubas and Armstrong went to Brock University together. Armstrong and Moldaver worked for IMG in Toronto together and went different ways before ending up at Wasserman Media, an agency that represents Connor McDavid and Matthews, among its largest NHL stars.

How much of the Moldaver-Matthews-Armstrong-Dubas relationship will impact Matthews’ future with the Leafs? That’s impossible to know without a general manager in place, with so much unknown about the Leafs’ immediate front-office circumstance and their most important player.

Why is this in the Senators sub forum, and everything you bolded. I don’t see anything Senators related.
Don’t mind you popping in, just don’t see how it pertains.

 

[hockeywiz542]

Why is this in the Senators sub forum, and everything you bolded. I don’t see anything Senators related.
Don’t mind you popping in, just don’t see how it pertains.

I just wanted to provide some background information regarding Kyle Dubas and how he might potentially conduct business on behalf of this hockey club if he appointed as the President of Hockey Operations for the Ottawa Senators.

 

[saskriders]

With all the Dorion/Dubas talk I am curious what people like or dislike about Dorion. How would you grade him in each of the following categories:

1. Drafting
a: High Picks
b: Mid Picks
c: Late Picks

2. Trading
a: Selling Trades
b: Buying Trades
c: Swap Trades (not buying or selling)

3. Signings
a: Extension Contracts
b: Free Agent Signings

If I'm not missing anything I think that is every major category that we can say a GM does. And I think it is fair to say negotiating selling a player (ex Karlsson) is different than buying (ex DeBrincat) or swapping (ex Brassard for Zibby) as well as the difference between extensions and UFAs.

 

[justavisitor]

How about coach hiring? Isn't that also a part of GM's job description?

I think his extension contracts to our star players are good.

However, I don't like that we got no first round pick this year, and the unwilling to upgrade our coaching when opportunity is present

 

[Ice-Tray]

How about coach hiring? Isn't that also a part of GM's job description?

I think his extension contracts to our star players are good.

However, I don't like that we got no first round pick this year, and the unwilling to upgrade our coaching when opportunity is present

Our first is Chychrun. Sucks not to have a pick for the draft, but he is worth a lot more than our first round pick at this point.

 

[Game 7 Meltdown]

Yeah, he did such a fantastic job with essentially an unlimited budget, the ability to hire as many management personal, bury as many contracts as needed, fire and continue to pay as many coaches as he felt, trade for anyone he wanted and all the other trappings that go with the arguably the NHLs flagship franchise……. It would be such an easy move for him to come into the perhaps smallest Canadian Market, with all off the constraints that go along with that, and see how he would fail here, as he did in Toronto with all of those assets he had there, that are not available in Ottawa.

In short, he was an OHL GM, that sat beside Lou Lamoriello for a few seasons, and was handed the keys to the franchise over Lou Lamoriello, and with all of those advantages, failed.

Lou was a great GM when Martin Brodeur was the best goalie in hockey. After that?

 

[Hockeysawks]

SIMMONS SAYS: Big skilled centres such as Auston Matthews are irreplacable

Everything about the Maple Leafs has to start with Auston Matthews.

torontosun.com

Everything about the Maple Leafs has to start with Auston Matthews.

Getting him signed. Getting him committed to Toronto long-term. Building this next phase of the Maple Leafs around an all-star calibre centre of size.

You don’t win the Stanley Cup without a front-line centre. And you don’t trade away Matthews — or let him walk in free agency — because you can’t replace a player of that calibre.

Colorado won the Cup last year with Nathan MacKinnon. Over the past 10 seasons, Jonathan Toews has won two Cups, as have Sidney Crosby, Evgeni Malkin and Brayden Point. Other Cup-winners include Anze Kopitar along with Nicklas Backstrom and Evgeny Kuznetsov. Big-time centres, all of them.

Without Matthews, the Leafs have nothing resembling a No. 1 centre. And maybe, after the stunning news of Friday, Matthews’ time in Toronto got more complicated when president Brendan Shanahan chose to remove Kyle Dubas as general manager.

Here’s the thing with Matthews: His agent and good friend, Judd Moldaver, is close to Dubas, but even closer to Dubas’ agent and friend, Chris Armstrong. Dubas and Armstrong went to Brock University together. Armstrong and Moldaver worked for IMG in Toronto together and went different ways before ending up at Wasserman Media, an agency that represents Connor McDavid and Matthews, among its largest NHL stars.

How much of the Moldaver-Matthews-Armstrong-Dubas relationship will impact Matthews’ future with the Leafs? That’s impossible to know without a general manager in place, with so much unknown about the Leafs’ immediate front-office circumstance and their most important player.

I doubt Mathews liked Dubas telling the world he was now fond of the idea of getting rid of key players. Thats something a GM should never do. Imagine you don't find a good enough deal and you have to keep everyone.
Good luck negotiating with someone that thinks you have been trying to get rid of him.

At this point I wouldn't doubt it if Shanahan blocked a Mathews to Pitts deal because he heard Dubas might be trying to land a job there

 

[R2010]

Honest question but what is the track record of value players that Dubas acquired?

It seems like only this year that they finally had their deficiencies sorted out, depth and D. Strikes me however that there was 5 years of not being able to cement either, that's a long time. I don't see a big difference between Holland and Dubas in this regard.

Also, I give him credit for Samsonov but I think he solved the goaltending mess only by the skin of his teeth.

I just don't see it in Dubas at all. I think people feel sorry for him and think that he's a good guy that deserves a good situation (which is fair) but aren't measuring him on his successes.

Thought that Bunting, Jarnkrok, Kampf, Kase, Samsonov were all good value signings for not much money.

Jarnkrok in particular being a ~40 point guy at 2 mil per year is real nice 3rd line depth.


Lots to complain about with him no doubt. But Dorion is just bad.

 

[R2010]

With all the Dorion/Dubas talk I am curious what people like or dislike about Dorion. How would you grade him in each of the following categories:

1. Drafting
a: High Picks
b: Mid Picks
c: Late Picks

2. Trading
a: Selling Trades
b: Buying Trades
c: Swap Trades (not buying or selling)

3. Signings
a: Extension Contracts
b: Free Agent Signings

If I'm not missing anything I think that is every major category that we can say a GM does. And I think it is fair to say negotiating selling a player (ex Karlsson) is different than buying (ex DeBrincat) or swapping (ex Brassard for Zibby) as well as the difference between extensions and UFAs.

Regardless of how we assess the two - what we need moving forward is someone who can get good value free agent signings, hit on late 1st and 2nd rounders and assess goaltenders. PD has struggled at all three. What he did well at we don't need anymore.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Regardless of how we assess the two - what we need moving forward is someone who can get good value free agent signings, hit on late 1st and 2nd rounders and assess goaltenders. PD has struggled at all three. What he did well at we don't need anymore.

Well, Grieg, Kleven, Pinto, are three examples of late first early seconds that look like hits….

I can understand wanting more though.

 

[maclean]

I could see KD interested in Ottawa job though, since that was his childhood team.

childhood?? jesus i had no idea he was so young

 

[JD1]

Regardless of how we assess the two - what we need moving forward is someone who can get good value free agent signings, hit on late 1st and 2nd rounders and assess goaltenders. PD has struggled at all three. What he did well at we don't need anymore.

I think there's a bit of a caveat to getting good value free agent signings

We were a small Canadian market team going through a full rebuild. We weren't an attractive Ufa destination at all. We'll never know all of the inner workings but my take is our options to sign Ufa players were limited to those guys that "couldn't get a job elsewhere"

I think things will change moving forward and we'll be a little more able to sign guys. New ownership and a competitive window opening up

 

[BankStreetParade]

I think there's a bit of a caveat to getting good value free agent signings

We were a small Canadian market team going through a full rebuild. We weren't an attractive Ufa destination at all. We'll never know all of the inner workings but my take is our options to sign Ufa players were limited to those guys that "couldn't get a job elsewhere"

I think things will change moving forward and we'll be a little more able to sign guys. New ownership and a competitive window opening up

Exactly. It's sort of a meaningless criticism when you consider the circumstances. Guys who are playing for around league min are looking for opportunities to win or to extend their playing careers and there's virtually no overlap between those 2 groups. I think we'll start to see things change again, especially with the core we have and guys knowing and respecting our elder statesman Giroux. Those things should be enough to attract some quality depth pieces on low-money contracts.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

With all the Dorion/Dubas talk I am curious what people like or dislike about Dorion. How would you grade him in each of the following categories:

1. Drafting
a: High Picks
b: Mid Picks
c: Late Picks

2. Trading
a: Selling Trades
b: Buying Trades
c: Swap Trades (not buying or selling)

3. Signings
a: Extension Contracts
b: Free Agent Signings

If I'm not missing anything I think that is every major category that we can say a GM does. And I think it is fair to say negotiating selling a player (ex Karlsson) is different than buying (ex DeBrincat) or swapping (ex Brassard for Zibby) as well as the difference between extensions and UFAs.

There was a Graeme Nichols article on this very topic that broke this down through Dorion's tenure as GM of the Sens. Its in this thread. Its thorough and worth reading. No one here will break it down better.

 

[Mingus Dew]

If Andlauer is indeed the new owner Dorion has got to be sweating real hard right now.

RIP.

 

[Daffy]

Would Staois be a good choice as GM?

 

[Adrianopolous]

Dubas might work in Ottawa as the Sens signed most of their core to good deals already

If Tkachuk, Stuztle, Batherson, Chabot, etc were RFAs in the year he was hired, your team is f***ed.

Just be ready for the organization to be littered with SSM alumni.

Sens are on upward progression, get a good goalie and another piece to upgrade the Debrincat trade which didn't work out and I see them being done their rebuild and transitioning to young contender status

Bruh you're not welcome here stay on your boards.

Playoff chokers not welcome

 

[R2010]

Well, Grieg, Kleven, Pinto, are three examples of late first early seconds that look like hits….

I can understand wanting more though.

1st/2nd rounders outside the top 5.

Great picks: Pinto, Formenton

Good picks: Greig, Kleven, Ostapchuk, Sogaard

Okay picks: Sokolov, JBD, Jarventie, Dahlen

Bad picks: Brown, Tychonick, Thomson

Horrible picks: Boucher, Roger, Bowers,

Real mixed bag. Only four out of 16 are to me for sure NHLers playing in a top 9 / top 6 / top 2. Another three are looking on that trajectory at least.

As an aside, the analytics really *strongly* favored taking Sillinger/Corronato over Boucher, Robertson/Tolvanen over Bowers, Peterka over Jarventie, Tomasino over Thomson.

This isn't some defense of draft analytics because I think they're only a small piece of the toolbox. But sometimes when there are huge differences in productivity between players you have to consider whether you're passing on upside over correctible issues (e.g. Jason Robertson and footspeed).

 

[Golden_Jet]

1st/2nd rounders outside the top 5.

Great picks: Pinto, Formenton

Good picks: Greig, Kleven, Ostapchuk, Sogaard

Okay picks: Sokolov, JBD, Jarventie, Dahlen

Bad picks: Brown, Tychonick, Thomson

Horrible picks: Boucher, Roger, Bowers,

Real mixed bag. Only four out of 16 are to me for sure NHLers playing in a top 9 / top 6 / top 2. Another three are looking on that trajectory at least.

As an aside, the analytics really *strongly* favored taking Sillinger/Corronato over Boucher, Robertson/Tolvanen over Bowers, Peterka over Jarventie, Tomasino over Thomson.

This isn't some defense of draft analytics because I think they're only a small piece of the toolbox. But sometimes when there are huge differences in productivity between players you have to consider whether you're passing on upside over correctible issues (e.g. Jason Robertson and footspeed).

Which analytics. There are upwards of a thousand or more. Depending if you pay.
Seems like a blanket statement.

 

[hockeywiz542]

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Dubas might work in Ottawa as the Sens signed most of their core to good deals already

If Tkachuk, Stuztle, Batherson, Chabot, etc were RFAs in the year he was hired, your team is f***ed.

Just be ready for the organization to be littered with SSM alumni.

Sens are on upward progression, get a good goalie and another piece to upgrade the Debrincat trade which didn't work out and I see them being done their rebuild and transitioning to young contender status

There's a few other things that are at least worth considering. If the cap goes up over the years significantly, Ottawa will have more money to spend on whatever. Hopefully, that money would be spent wisely by whomever. Also, a bad trade could also impact the team. I look at the idea that the core is locked up as being temporal and/or partial in nature.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Bruh you're not welcome here stay on your boards.

Playoff chokers not welcome

Don't think he said anything that was inflammatory or did anything that was problematic. I don't have issues with outside (if you want to call it that) opinions if they have some merit and are respectful.

BTW, don't confuse the paragraph above as an endorsement of Dubas. I'm far from convinced he is the answer. I definitely don't like all the things he did for sure.