Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[hockeywiz542]

According to DailyFaceoff's Frank Seravalli:

• Does Kyle Dubas really wants the Pittsburgh Penguins GM job?

• It seems as though the Pittsburgh Penguins GM job is not high on Kyle Dubas' priority list.

• Once the Ottawa Senators ownership situation is settled, it would probably be much more enticing for Kyle Dubas to join that hockey club since they are on the upswing and he grew up an Ottawa Senators fan.



What role could Iginla have with Flames and is Treliving the front-runner for Leafs job?

7:45 | May 23, 2023

DailyFaceoff's Frank Seravalli joins Sportsnet Central to discuss the hot topics around the NHL world including the Flames' front-office revamp, who is leading the pack for Leafs' GM and does Dubas want Penguins' job?

 

[otown]

Gimme Dubas.

Giroux from the Ottawa region a Sens fan finally with the Sens.

Dubas, a big Sens fan finally with the Sens.

Let's get the passion back on this team. You know Dubas will come here with a purpose.

Dubas has had so many questionable moves as GM for the Leafs. Taking Murray is just one of them.
Can't question his passion but the results just haven't been there. Taking Dubas would be a mistake.
There are more experienced GM's out there!

 

[Burrowsaurus]

i don’t care who we get. i just want a thorough process. none of this oh here’s my buddy staios. or it’s dubas job to lose.

but i’ll take dubas over staios prettty easily.dubas had a lot of money and power in toronto. and i think his failings are overblown as well as his accomplishments. he had to sign matthews and marner. and they wanted to get paid. their first priority clearly was cash. as a GM what are you supposed to do? trade them? restart the rebuild? no. people say he jumped the gun on tavares and picking him over kadri essentially..yeah i would agree but tavares is there. it’s a big swing. i respect the swing. and he was still able to piece together a pretty solid top 4. muzzins injury issues are tough to deal with.

 

[hockeywiz542]

 

[DaveMatthew]

Chris Johnston reported that Shanahan called the "core 4" after Dubas was let go and essentially told them they were safe and going to stay together.

Makes you wonder if he's the one who wants to keep that team together despite the lack of playoff success (after all it's a money printing machine) and whether that caused friction between him and Dubas. Perhaps Dubas wanted to make more substantial changes and was getting blocked.

I guess we'll get an indication when their new GM is hired. Is Shanahan looking for a yes man or someone who's actually going to take a hard look at that team?

It's interesting that over the years all the criticism has been at Dubas, when Shanny was the guy with the actual power. 9 years and counting for him - 1 playoff round win.

The speculation of Armstrong or McPhee is ridiculous. Neither guy is going to Toronto to work under Shanahan. They'd both need full-control.

 

[BUCKLE UP]

Chris Johnston reported that Shanahan called the "core 4" after Dubas was let go and essentially told them they were safe and going to stay together.

Makes you wonder if he's the one who wants to keep that team together despite the lack of playoff success (after all it's a money printing machine) and whether that caused friction between him and Dubas. Perhaps Dubas wanted to make more substantial changes and was getting blocked.

I guess we'll get an indication when their new GM is hired. Is Shanahan looking for a yes man or someone who's actually going to take a hard look at that team?

It's interesting that over the years all the criticism has been at Dubas, when Shanny was the guy with the actual power. 9 years and counting for him - 1 playoff round win.

The speculation of Armstrong or McPhee is ridiculous. Neither guy is going to Toronto to work under Shanahan. They'd both need full-control.

There were lots of rumours that Shanahan vetoed multiple trades this season. Must be hard to GM while being micromanaged by your boss. -cough Dorion and Melnyk-

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Gimme Dubas.

Giroux from the Ottawa region a Sens fan finally with the Sens.

Dubas, a big Sens fan finally with the Sens.

Let's get the passion back on this team. You know Dubas will come here with a purpose.

Pittsburgh was given permission to talk with Dubas…. He will offered much more than what Ottawa can, at this time.
If he wants to pass, hoping that there might be an opening elsewhere, including Ottawa, which is not a given…. he would be foolish.

 

[ijif]

1st/2nd rounders outside the top 5.

Great picks: Pinto, Formenton

Good picks: Greig, Kleven, Ostapchuk, Sogaard

Okay picks: Sokolov, JBD, Jarventie, Dahlen

Bad picks: Brown, Tychonick, Thomson

Horrible picks: Boucher, Roger, Bowers,

Real mixed bag. Only four out of 16 are to me for sure NHLers playing in a top 9 / top 6 / top 2. Another three are looking on that trajectory at least.

As an aside, the analytics really *strongly* favored taking Sillinger/Corronato over Boucher, Robertson/Tolvanen over Bowers, Peterka over Jarventie, Tomasino over Thomson.

This isn't some defense of draft analytics because I think they're only a small piece of the toolbox. But sometimes when there are huge differences in productivity between players you have to consider whether you're passing on upside over correctible issues (e.g. Jason Robertson and footspeed).

What is your evidence for the bolded?

 

[HSF]

What bad contracts do the sens have?

Paquette coburn gudbranson Stepan zatisev boedker Murray and currently Joseph

Pittsburgh was given permission to talk with Dubas…. He will offered much more than what Ottawa can, at this time.
If he wants to pass, hoping that there might be an opening elsewhere, including Ottawa, which is not a given…. he would be foolish.

Might not be money with Dubas

Also might want to stay in Ontario

Hopefully with new ownership our mentality changes with what we can’t and can do

There were lots of rumours that Shanahan vetoed multiple trades this season. Must be hard to GM while being micromanaged by your boss. -cough Dorion and Melnyk-

Just bring Dubas in as president

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Pittsburgh was given permission to talk with Dubas…. He will offered much more than what Ottawa can, at this time.
If he wants to pass, hoping that there might be an opening elsewhere, including Ottawa, which is not a given…. he would be foolish.

Foolish only in the sense of leaving money on the table. For a guy that has earned more than enough for him and his family to retire comfortably already and is only 37 years old. He may have other motivations which is pretty respectable and that has to be the hope for any Ottawa fans that would want him to come.

Of course anyone expecting Ottawa to pay him comparatively to TO or Pitt are out to lunch.

 

[HandshakeLineRespect]

Leafs fan here. Why on earth would any Sens fan be hoping for a Dubas hire? From my point of view Dorian has done a way better job drafting and negotiating contracts. All this while having to deal with a broke meddling owner who doesnt allow his GM to draft russians. Dorion fleeced Dubas on the Murray deal too. I just dont see how Dubas would be an upgrade over Dorian.

 

[swiftwin]

Leafs fan here. Why on earth would any Sens fan be hoping for a Dubas hire? From my point of view Dorian has done a way better job drafting and negotiating contracts. All this while having to deal with a broke meddling owner who doesnt allow his GM to draft russians. Dorion fleeced Dubas on the Murray deal too. I just dont see how Dubas would be an upgrade over Dorian.

I agree 100%, but the battle lines in hfsens are already drawn, and some are on the anti-Dorion train until the last breath.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Leafs fan here. Why on earth would any Sens fan be hoping for a Dubas hire? From my point of view Dorian has done a way better job drafting and negotiating contracts. All this while having to deal with a broke meddling owner who doesnt allow his GM to draft russians. Dorion fleeced Dubas on the Murray deal too. I just dont see how Dubas would be an upgrade over Dorian.

Its been up and down for Dorion and he has been a polarizing figure in Ottawa just the same as Dubas in Toronto. Clearly, no GM is a slam dunk across the board, and certainly the absurdity that was Melnyk and his tyrannical behavior was the biggest issue for this franchise and everything has changed with him out of the picture. His transactional resume is a mix of good and bad and imo, any position fans hold of either wanting a new person or wanting Dorion to stay is respectable, and imo that's indisputable because there's no slam dunk argument for either side.

Dorion does some things really well (like these re-signings of the core) while some not so much. Prevailing opinion is often that for the next stage of the build, it may require some areas being strengthened, mostly depth and Goaltending, that he has struggled with in the past and that appears to be the area Dubas has done well as opposed to re-signings. Some feel he deserves a shot to see what he can do, some don't.

I'd bet the fan base is fairly split at this point, but personally, I don't think Dorion or DJ are ever going to be able to shake the label of being Melnyk's old low salary hires as was the requirement under his ownership unless the team really takes off with on ice success and a playoff berth next season, if they're kept.

 

[bicboi64]

I hope Dubas goes to Pittsburgh. He'll overpay Crosby for his next deal since he's the core guy, and find a way to keep them in mediocrity.

 

[HandshakeLineRespect]

Its been up and down for Dorion and he has been a polarizing figure in Ottawa just the same as Dubas in Toronto. Clearly, no GM is a slam dunk across the board, and certainly the absurdity that was Melnyk and his tyrannical behavior was the biggest issue for this franchise and everything has changed with him out of the picture. His transactional resume is a mix of good and bad and imo, any position fans hold of either wanting a new person or wanting Dorion to stay is respectable, and imo that's indisputable because there's no slam dunk argument for either side.

Dorion does some things really well (like these re-signings of the core) while some not so much. Prevailing opinion is often that for the next stage of the build, it may require some areas being strengthened, mostly depth and Goaltending, that he has struggled with in the past and that appears to be the area Dubas has done well as opposed to re-signings. Some feel he deserves a shot to see what he can do, some don't.

I'd bet the fan base is fairly split at this point, but personally, I don't think Dorion or DJ are ever going to be able to shake the label of being Melnyk's old low salary hires as was the requirement under his ownership unless the team really takes off with on ice success and a playoff berth next season, if they're kept.

Please keep in mind that Dubas was gifted a team with Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Kadri, Hyman, Brown, Moore and Rielly all on ELCs and team friendly deals and still botched the rebuild. I find it interesting he could walk into another magnificent situation he had no part in building. Regarding goaltending, he picked sparks over mcleiny. Signed Mrazek and traded for Murray. Woll was a player he inherited from Lou. Hes missed the mark on goaltending. He also had every advantage with the resources available to him in Toronto. There will be no Robidas island in Ottawa i assume.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Please keep in mind that Dubas was gifted a team with Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Kadri, Hyman, Brown, Moore and Rielly all on ELCs and team friendly deals and still botched the rebuild. I find it interesting he could walk into another magnificent situation he had no part in building. Regarding goaltending, he picked sparks over mcleiny. Signed Mrazek and traded for Murray. Woll was a player he inherited from Lou. Hes missed the mark on goaltending. He also had every advantage with the resources available to him in Toronto. There will be no Robidas island in Ottawa i assume.

I think that's more than fair criticism of Dubas. There were a lot of ups and downs in the transaction list just like in Ottawa. I'm certainly not arguing for him, just laying out what I read a lot about Dorion and why many would like to move on to someone else for this next stage. Just so you don't buy in to the Dorion "hater" stuff. There are some that irrationally dislike the guy, but there's an argument both for letting him go and keeping him. Anyone that pretends otherwise is being foolish imo. A lot of TO fans seem to like Dubas, so similar feelings in your neck of the woods as is held here about Dorion?

 

[Tragedy]

I like the part where everyone is clowning on Dubas for trading for Murray ignoring that he was paid to take him. Ottawa retained AND gave up draft capital to Toronto for Murray. Now I wonder who signed Murray to a 6M+ contract that required being offloaded immediately? Hmmm...

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I like the part where everyone is clowning on Dubas for trading for Murray ignoring that he was paid to take him. Ottawa retained AND gave up draft capital to Toronto for Murray. Now I wonder who signed Murray to a 6M+ contract that required being offloaded immediately? Hmmm...

Murray is definitely the big egg on Dorion imo. He did well to get rid of him even under those terms of taking it on the chin a bit, but that signing set the team back in their rebuild from earlier progress imo and turned out to be a bit of a team cancer.

 

[HandshakeLineRespect]

I think that's more than fair criticism of Dubas. There were a lot of ups and downs in the transaction list just like in Ottawa. I'm certainly not arguing for him, just laying out what I read a lot about Dorion and why many would like to move on to someone else for this next stage. Just so you don't buy in to the Dorion "hater" stuff. There are some that irrationally dislike the guy, but there's an argument both for letting him go and keeping him. Anyone that pretends otherwise is being foolish imo. A lot of TO fans seem to like Dubas, so similar feelings in your neck of the woods as is held here about Dorion?

I think a lot of Dubas lovers in TO are more in love with the idea of a young progressive GM instead of focusing on results. If you look at the prospect pool, lack of picks, bloated contracts and a bunch of no movement clauses kicking in, it is an unmitigated disaster. Dorion may have worn out his welcome but it would be a fools errand to think Dubas would be an improvement.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I think a lot of Dubas lovers in TO are more in love with the idea of a young progressive GM instead of focusing on results. If you look at the prospect pool, lack of picks, bloated contracts and a bunch of no movement clauses kicking in, it is an unmitigated disaster. Dorion may have worn out his welcome but it would be a fools errand to think Dubas would be an improvement.

Well, I think if there's one thing I've learned with sports management over the years, it's that a lot of these guys learn from their mistakes. I do think the fact that the team has been contender and in the playoffs all these years means something, even if he inherited much of that. From the outside looking in, I see a core that failed more than anything else, but don't really care to get in to the nuts and bolts of your team enough to analyze closely. Dorion has spent a lot of time cleaning up his own stuff, so he's one that has learned a bit on the fly. I think Ottawa fans are just excited at the possibility of a different mind at the helm. It often goes like that with successful rebuilds. As good as the core looks, there's been a lot of question marks otherwise and if he is kept, is likely on very thin ice needing a playoff berth next season pretty much no question.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Foolish only in the sense of leaving money on the table. For a guy that has earned more than enough for him and his family to retire comfortably already and is only 37 years old. He may have other motivations which is pretty respectable and that has to be the hope for any Ottawa fans that would want him to come.

Of course anyone expecting Ottawa to pay him comparatively to TO or Pitt are out to lunch.

no one, not even the failed Toronto GM, is going to take less than they feel they’re worth.

Does anyone really think the GM that was fleeced by PD into taking Matt Murray off his hands is someone the Senators really need to bring in?

This failed fired leaf GM revived the toronto tradition of handing out retirement contracts to past their prime stars, line John Tavares.

Dubas proved he was in over his head by virtue of the position he has left the leaf franchise in, with star players having their contracts expiring on the same year and their “Window” closing fast, and their empty cupboard of young talent.

 

[bicboi64]

I like the part where everyone is clowning on Dubas for trading for Murray ignoring that he was paid to take him. Ottawa retained AND gave up draft capital to Toronto for Murray. Now I wonder who signed Murray to a 6M+ contract that required being offloaded immediately? Hmmm...

Dorion is an idiot for Murray's signing, but $4.6 million for Murray is a lot of capspace that the Leafs could've used. for a better upgrade.

 

[Tragedy]

no one, not even the failed Toronto GM, is going to take less than they feel they’re worth.

Does anyone really think the GM that was fleeced by PD into taking Matt Murray off his hands is someone the Senators really need to bring in?

This failed fired leaf GM revived the toronto tradition of handing out retirement contracts to past their prime stars, line John Tavares.

Dubas proved he was in over his head by virtue of the position he has left the leaf franchise in, with star players having their contracts expiring on the same year and their “Window” closing fast, and their empty cupboard of young talent.

Can you please elaborate? Ottawa PAID Toronto to take Murray. If your argument is that Toronto didn't get as much as they should to take that contract I could see some room for discussion but as it stands, Toronto got 2 draft picks and a goalie with a retained cap hit. Dubas didn't sign Murray to a 6M+ contract, PD did.

 

[DaveMatthew]

This failed fired leaf GM revived the toronto tradition of handing out retirement contracts to past their prime stars, line John Tavares.

The John Tavares contract could easily be looked at as a very big mistake, but let's not rewrite history.

He signed coming off his age 26 season, not when he was past his prime.

Will Thomas Chabot be past his prime after next year? Because he'll basically be the same age as Tavares was when he signed with Toronto.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

no one, not even the failed Toronto GM, is going to take less than they feel they’re worth.

Does anyone really think the GM that was fleeced by PD into taking Matt Murray off his hands is someone the Senators really need to bring in?

This failed fired leaf GM revived the toronto tradition of handing out retirement contracts to past their prime stars, line John Tavares.

Dubas proved he was in over his head by virtue of the position he has left the leaf franchise in, with star players having their contracts expiring on the same year and their “Window” closing fast, and their empty cupboard of young talent.

What? Many do. Tavares did. Happens in basketball all the time. Take less to go to a contender, hometown, etc. It's the exception not the rule, without a doubt, and obviously there's limits, but to say never is foolish.

I took less to work with my Brother than I was getting for a big telecomms corp. No ragrets.

As for the rest, I'm not too interested in arguing for Dubas, was just trying to provide some context for why some may feel they want a change from Dorion, regardless who that is.