Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[Tragedy]

Dorion is an idiot for Murray's signing, but $4.6 million for Murray is a lot of capspace that the Leafs could've used. for a better upgrade.

On what? Who/Where is this upgrade the Leafs could have acquired that getting Murray blocked? Because it sure looks like they were able to make things work as necessary for other pick ups like ROR. Murray is broken down and can't handle a starters workload anymore but Dubas wasn't the only GM hoping to revive his career and at least Dubas was paid to take Murray at a reduced cost. We gave up a 2nd for him and then signed him to that albatross contract.

 

[bicboi64]

On what? Who/Where is this upgrade the Leafs could have acquired that getting Murray blocked? Because it sure looks like they were able to make things work as necessary for other pick ups like ROR. Murray is broken down and can't handle a starters workload anymore but Dubas wasn't the only GM hoping to revive his career and at least Dubas was paid to take Murray at a reduced cost. We gave up a 2nd for him and then signed him to that albatross contract.

To back up Samsonov, any of the following UFA signings would've been better and were made after Murray was acquired:
-Halak, Lankinen, Jones, and each of them could've been offered a bit more money than Murray for less term.

Toronto got a 7th and a 3rd. What's more important for a contending team that is in perptual cap crunch due to their core stars, a 3rd and a 7th, or $4.6 million in cap?

And for what its worth, I think we're both comparing two mediocre GMs who thought Murry was a viable option in the last 3 years.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I think it's fair to criticize both for acquiring Murray. We gave him an awful contract and had to pay to get rid of him, but it was pretty damn clear he was cooked, so not sure what Dubas was thinking last year other than basically buying a 649 hockey ticket, huge potential reward with almost impossible odds.

 

[boxbox]

Chris Johnston reported that Shanahan called the "core 4" after Dubas was let go and essentially told them they were safe and going to stay together.

Makes you wonder if he's the one who wants to keep that team together despite the lack of playoff success (after all it's a money printing machine) and whether that caused friction between him and Dubas. Perhaps Dubas wanted to make more substantial changes and was getting blocked.

I guess we'll get an indication when their new GM is hired. Is Shanahan looking for a yes man or someone who's actually going to take a hard look at that team?

It's interesting that over the years all the criticism has been at Dubas, when Shanny was the guy with the actual power. 9 years and counting for him - 1 playoff round win.

The speculation of Armstrong or McPhee is ridiculous. Neither guy is going to Toronto to work under Shanahan. They'd both need full-control.

This. Its hard to blame a GM when shit likes of what Shanahan was doing comes to light. I almost feel for Dubas as one could easily argue he was simply used by Shanahan. Things go well he is the genius that hired him things go bad its the GMs fault. Even if he blocked just one trade...by definition that team was no longer just the work of Dubas and solely Dubas's responsibility.

Also goes to show you just how much crap might or might not be happening behind closed doors. Just like some on here fabricating ideas about there being no accountability from the coach just because on what is shown on TV makes it appear as such.

Good luck finding a GM now Shanahan. I can almost guarantee no one will take that job without some assurance/guarantee/condition of granting them full control the GM position entitles one to have.

 

[boxbox]

I think it's fair to criticize both for acquiring Murray. We gave him an awful contract and had to pay to get rid of him, but it was pretty damn clear he was cooked, so not sure what Dubas was thinking last year other than basically buying a 649 hockey ticket, huge potential reward with almost impossible odds.

Well to be fair at least Ottawa had a hands on experience on what Murray was capable of. I am confident when I say had it not been for him the Sens would have a Cup banner hanging in their barn. All the more credit to Dorion for actually moving him out.

 

[HandshakeLineRespect]

Well, I think if there's one thing I've learned with sports management over the years, it's that a lot of these guys learn from their mistakes. I do think the fact that the team has been contender and in the playoffs all these years means something, even if he inherited much of that. From the outside looking in, I see a core that failed more than anything else, but don't really care to get in to the nuts and bolts of your team enough to analyze closely. Dorion has spent a lot of time cleaning up his own stuff, so he's one that has learned a bit on the fly. I think Ottawa fans are just excited at the possibility of a different mind at the helm. It often goes like that with successful rebuilds. As good as the core looks, there's been a lot of question marks otherwise and if he is kept, is likely on very thin ice needing a playoff berth next season pretty much no question.

100%. I often wonder how much its the GM trying to fix massive mistakes forced on them by ownership. Vancouver fans would rip Jim Benning to shreds and i would think that he was pretty good at the draft and he had the worst owners in all of sports in the Aquilinis who refused to rebuild for over a decade. Like how many screw ups were forced on Dorian by Melnyk. I always thought of Dorian as just a Melnyk puppet but once he passed i thought he spent some money but smartly, and just in general made some good moves. But i get it, outsiders dont know the nuance and context of other markets thats for sure. If you guys land Dubas expect a soo greyhound nepotism train and at least youll get Spezz back in the organization

 

[JD1]

I like the part where everyone is clowning on Dubas for trading for Murray ignoring that he was paid to take him. Ottawa retained AND gave up draft capital to Toronto for Murray. Now I wonder who signed Murray to a 6M+ contract that required being offloaded immediately? Hmmm...

Well, that's certainly one way of looking at it

Another way of looking at it would be when Ottawa signed Murray, his poor health track wasn't nearly as extensive, he was two years younger, and not that far removed from being a cup winner.

What Ottawa did was a risk. Two years later, after chalking up two more years of constant health problems, what Toronto did was probably pretty damn stupid. Much longer track record of consistent poor health. Much further removed from being a cup winner

 

[HSF]

Dubas has had so many questionable moves as GM for the Leafs. Taking Murray is just one of them.
Can't question his passion but the results just haven't been there. Taking Dubas would be a mistake.
There are more experienced GM's out there!

All GMs make mistakes unfortunately you won't be getting a Brisbois right now.

Dubas is a good executive and forward thinking when building out his departments in Toronto. He is a good option in a very very limited pool of people with experience. Disagree that there are many better options with experience out there

 

[L'Aveuglette]

Hey how about no to both PD and Dubas?

Page after page after page of bickering over who's the best GM between two losers lol.

 

[Hockeysawks]

This. Its hard to blame a GM when shit likes of what Shanahan was doing comes to light. I almost feel for Dubas as one could easily argue he was simply used by Shanahan. Things go well he is the genius that hired him things go bad its the GMs fault. Even if he blocked just one trade...by definition that team was no longer just the work of Dubas and solely Dubas's responsibility.

Also goes to show you just how much crap might or might not be happening behind closed doors. Just like some on here fabricating ideas about there being no accountability from the coach just because on what is shown on TV makes it appear as such.

Good luck finding a GM now Shanahan. I can almost guarantee no one will take that job without some assurance/guarantee/condition of granting them full control the GM position entitles one to have.

What do you mean? Every GM has a boss. Poor Dubas wasn't allowed to keep paying signing bonuses then trading players away?
Dubas stalled stalled stalled then lied so he could stall more, once the leafs were screwed he tried to steal Shanny's job and pay(making Shanny's job another waste of millions.)

He will be lucky to be hired anywhere and for some reason reporters are acting like he can pick the team he wants
Good luck with that

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

100%. I often wonder how much its the GM trying to fix massive mistakes forced on them by ownership. Vancouver fans would rip Jim Benning to shreds and i would think that he was pretty good at the draft and he had the worst owners in all of sports in the Aquilinis who refused to rebuild for over a decade. Like how many screw ups were forced on Dorian by Melnyk. I always thought of Dorian as just a Melnyk puppet but once he passed i thought he spent some money but smartly, and just in general made some good moves. But i get it, outsiders dont know the nuance and context of other markets thats for sure. If you guys land Dubas expect a soo greyhound nepotism train and at least youll get Spezz back in the organization

Yes, good old Benning. He got better as time moved along I thought, but that team just did not have enough core pieces to be anything special and ran in to cap problems. I have a hard time blaming owners not wanting to rebuild though. It really f***ing sucks, until it doesn't. It's like minimum half a decade of god awful hockey, very few players of interest, and minimal fan engagement just to start coming out the other end. I can definitely see why teams would rather try to fight through, even if foolhardy in the grand scheme. Problem is you need enough in the cupboard to re-tool and Van didn't have that. I think a team like say Calgary does. This last 5-5.5 years in Ottawa have been some of the absolute worst in my life of being a fan of this team.

Lol, well, regardless of opinions on Dubas, I think I speak for most Sens fans when I say, "C'mon down Mr. Spezza!"

 

[Big Muddy]

Dubas has had so many questionable moves as GM for the Leafs. Taking Murray is just one of them.
Can't question his passion but the results just haven't been there. Taking Dubas would be a mistake.
There are more experienced GM's out there!

I would be nervous about Dubas as well. That old expression about doing the same thing and expecting different results comes to mind.

I don't think you can say that everyone who apparently hates Dorion wants Dubas either. That's the old "us versus them" sad theme playing out again.

And, I doubt we really have any good or valid info about what went on behind the scenes with Dubas & Shanny either. That article or articles that folks are basing this on sure looked like speculation to me.

 

[DaveMatthew]

What do you mean? Every GM has a boss. Poor Dubas wasn't allowed to keep paying signing bonuses then trading players away?
Dubas stalled stalled stalled then lied so he could stall more, once the leafs were screwed he tried to steal Shanny's job and pay(making Shanny's job another waste of millions.)

He will be lucky to be hired anywhere and for some reason reporters are acting like he can pick the team he wants
Good luck with that

Dubas made tons of bad moves, no doubt.

But it all starts at the top. And in the last week, Brendan Shanahan fired his GM and then, reportedly, called the 4 players who make $40M and scored a combined 2 goals against the Panthers to tell them not to worry, they're safe, the Leafs want them all back.

It looks like the culture of coddling wasn't a Dubas problem.

It would have been much different if Shanahan came out and said the results weren't up to par and everything was on the table because winning is what matters. But that's not what happened.

Poor John, Auston, Willy and Mitchy. They must have been real stressed out there for the 72 hours after Dubas' press conference where he implied that someone might get traded by referencing the Tkachuk trade. Now they can relax all summer knowing that losing wasn't their fault.

 

[swiftwin]

I think a lot of Dubas lovers in TO are more in love with the idea of a young progressive GM instead of focusing on results. If you look at the prospect pool, lack of picks, bloated contracts and a bunch of no movement clauses kicking in, it is an unmitigated disaster. Dorion may have worn out his welcome but it would be a fools errand to think Dubas would be an improvement.

Nailed it.

I'm convinced this is why people hate on Dorion. There are a few types of GMs in the league.

There's the old guard, like Lou, Holland, etc.
There's the former players like Yzerman, Sakic, etc.
There's the young hip progressive types like Dubas, Brisebois, etc.

Meanwhile, Dorion is an outsider who doesn't fit any of those archetypes, plus he's a terrible public speaker.

At the end of the day, the results matter, Dorion has done a good job at rebuilding the team. Detroit has been rebuilding longer than we have, and they are still way behind us. But people don't care, because Yzerman is a badass.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Nailed it.

I'm convinced this is why people hate on Dorion. There are a few types of GMs in the league.

There's the old guard, like Lou, Holland, etc.
There's the former players like Yzerman, Sakic, etc.
There's the young hip progressive types like Dubas, Brisebois, etc.

Meanwhile, Dorion is an outsider who doesn't fit any of those archetypes, plus he's a terrible public speaker.

At the end of the day, the results matter, Dorion has done a good job at rebuilding the team. Detroit has been rebuilding longer than we have, and they are still way behind us. But people don't care, because Yzerman is a badass.

Huh? What a weird thing to say. There have been, as of yet, no positive results. There may be in the future, and I get believing in the direction, but at this point, nothing to hang your hat on.

The Sens and Leafs can be looked at in a similar way.

Ottawa looks like a team that, on paper, has a ton of potential. But they've actually accomplished squat.
Toronto looks like a team that, on paper, should be a Stanley Cup contender. But they've actually accomplished squat.

Let's be real here. There's no guarantee that this team makes the playoffs in the next 3 seasons. And there's certainly no guarantee that this core wins many games in the playoffs, if they get there.

Maybe they will - but until that happens, you can't say "results matter and we've seen results here".

Also the Red Wings finished 6 points behind us this year. I don't know if that's "way behind" considering people on this board think finishing 6 points out of the wildcard spot is coming "close".

 

[Gil Gunderson]

Save for the Murray trade (which was a really dumb signing by Dorion in the first place, remember?), Dubas has done really good on the trade market recently. Those deadline moves for McCabe, Schenn, and especially ROR were really solid.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Dubas made tons of bad moves, no doubt.

But it all starts at the top. And in the last week, Brendan Shanahan fired his GM and then, reportedly, called the 4 players who make $40M and scored a combined 2 goals against the Panthers to tell them not to worry, they're safe, the Leafs want them all back.

It looks like the culture of coddling wasn't a Dubas problem.

It would have been much different if Shanahan came out and said the results weren't up to par and everything was on the table because winning is what matters. But that's not what happened.

Poor John, Auston, Willy and Mitchy. They must have been real stressed out there for the 72 hours after Dubas' press conference where he implied that someone might get traded by referencing the Tkachuk trade. Now they can relax all summer knowing that losing wasn't their fault.

I can't get over this. If this is actually true, its f***ing baffling. At least let them be a bit uncomfortable even if that is your plan. They just let you down massively and they need to wear it before anyone else.

It's pretty clear who in TO has let everyone down and that's where change needs to happen. It's the guys making the big bucks.

 

[bicboi64]

Hey how about no to both PD and Dubas?

Page after page after page of bickering over who's the best GM between two losers lol.

This x100. Dubas and Dorion both suck. Arguing who sucks less is a moot point, the least suckiest one still sucks

 

[JimmyApples]

This is based off nothing but a pessimistic view… I have a feeling we’re hiring Cheryl “Quarter Pounder” in some sort of capacity

 

[Hockeysawks]

Dubas made tons of bad moves, no doubt.

But it all starts at the top. And in the last week, Brendan Shanahan fired his GM and then, reportedly, called the 4 players who make $40M and scored a combined 2 goals against the Panthers to tell them not to worry, they're safe, the Leafs want them all back.

It looks like the culture of coddling wasn't a Dubas problem.

It would have been much different if Shanahan came out and said the results weren't up to par and everything was on the table because winning is what matters. But that's not what happened.

Poor John, Auston, Willy and Mitchy. They must have been real stressed out there for the 72 hours after Dubas' press conference where he implied that someone might get traded by referencing the Tkachuk trade. Now they can relax all summer knowing that losing wasn't their fault.

if you don’t find a place to trade them it could cause all sorts of issues with new contracts or locker room problems, publicly stating how the stars might be traded is seriously bad management

 

[hockeywiz542]

Will Kyle Dubas be hired by the Pittsburgh Penguins as their new President of Hockey Operations or GM soon?

 

[Big Muddy]

Save for the Murray trade (which was a really dumb signing by Dorion in the first place, remember?), Dubas has done really good on the trade market recently. Those deadline moves for McCabe, Schenn, and especially ROR were really solid.

The Tavares signing was brutal. You win some, you lose some. But, Tavares was a definitely an unnecessary, bad move that had lots of long term negative repercussions. It will be interesting to see what Toronto does this offseason. They have a far from ideal situation to deal with.

 

[Big Muddy]

if you don’t find a place to trade them it could cause all sorts of issues with new contracts or locker room problems, publicly stating how the stars might be traded is seriously bad management

Assuming that this report has any veracity (it wouldn't surprise its speculation just like almost everything else these days), I doubt if Shannahan is going to come out and tell the media he's not going to re-sign his stars. Nothing to be gained by doing that. He can always trade them later regardless of what he says today/yesterday. It happens all of the time.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Hard to believe that Dorion is so polarizing.

 

[Cosmix]

Pittsburgh was given permission to talk with Dubas…. He will offered much more than what Ottawa can, at this time.
If he wants to pass, hoping that there might be an opening elsewhere, including Ottawa, which is not a given…. he would be foolish.

unless . .