Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[Micklebot]

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the value of having a good top 9 winger for 2-3 years or a #6 for 6 seasons at a very bad contract.

We only had Zaitsev for half a season more than Brown so I have no idea what we are agreeing to disagree on here???

 

[BankStreetParade]

Duuude, they have been making the playoffs because they are in their window years and have some star power. This is the first year where anyone thought playoffs was even an outside possibility for us; and we came 3 games short. We’ll get in next year, just as our window starts to open.

As for TO getting in, I subscribe to Cooper’s philosophy on the matter, as I, like many suffers through our many playoff chokes; winning the season isn’t the goal, and just making the playoffs shouldn’t be the goal for TO. Winning in the playoffs is the TB goal, while for all the regular season heroics, that same trio of stars has not only been unable to win in the playoffs, but have been ridiculed as being soft while losing in the playoffs.

There is always time to turn things around, but I certainly wouldn’t be heralding that group as anything but regular season darlings at this point. I say this as a fan who has been there done that with our own group of guys.

We are far from a soft team. NJ and the Canes are pretty soft, TO is pretty soft, and it usually comes from the star players down. Highly skilled, but soft.

Dubas has failed to push a team over the hump, turn the team into playoff warriors, for several years now. If we are looking for a GM to replace PD (a GM we decide we aren’t going to give a chance to manage a team that now looks like a playoff team) why would we replace him with a guy who has been a failure with his team in the exact same situation that we’re entering. If we look at the body of work we can expect Dubas to trade away all of the hard working grit, and lead us to playoff failures year after year until Brady is in his last year.

If his team finally succeeds this year then why would he be available?

So many of you want to dump PD (who has more playoff series wins than Dubas no?), and that’s fine, but then to replace him with a guy who has been a failure at taking young skilled teams to the next level year after year?

Thats crazy talk.

I don’t even hate the leafs more than I hate the idea of bringing that guy in to lead the team.

It gets even better.

The last few years in Ottawa, before this season: "Pierre, you have about $70M to construct a roster, hire a coaching staff and flesh out the front office."
The same timeframe in Toronto: "Kyle, here's a blank cheque. Go nuts, kid."

Like, how are we even attempting to compare the 2 situations LOL?? It's honestly mind-boggling.

The Leafs have $92M in salary expenditures this year alone. They paid $36M in signing bonuses on July 1st, almost half of our entire year of player spending.

Before this past season, Dorion's AGM was a f***ing lawyer who had no management experience in hockey. Not the NHL. The sport. At any level.

Anyone comparing Dorion to Dubas, without a million caveats, is just kidding themselves.

 

[bicboi64]

We only had Zaitsev for half a season more than Brown so I have no idea what we are agreeing to disagree on here???

At the time of us acquiring Brown and Zaitsev, Zaitsev was on the books for at least 6 more seasons. Brown was an RFA who'd be cost controlled for 2-3 seasons depending on what he signed.

At the time of the trade I wasn't a fan because I didn't think we'd be signing Brown (or any other players) to long term deals so it didn't make sense for me to get Zaitsev, someone the Leafs were willing to move for Ceci who we thought was crap, when he's on the books for 6 years.

The trade was a loss for me in that sense that we got an anchor of a contract for 6 years and the forward we're getting isn't nearly good enough to make up for that in ability, or his contract situation.

 

[DaveMatthew]

It's fascinating that the same group of posters who'll routinely say, "you shouldn't criticize Pierre Dorion because he's an NHL GM and you're sitting on your couch" will so quickly shit on Kyle Dubas or any other GM/executive, so long as they're not employed by the Ottawa Senators.

Same thing with coaching. Very funny to see it play out.

"You have no idea what it takes to be an NHL coach so how dare you criticize DJ Smith! He's forgotten more about hockey than you'll ever know!"
- Goes to Around the NHL thread -
"Bruce Cassidy is a terrible coach every player hates him!!!"

*Kyle Dubas would not be my choice to take over as the GM of this team.

 

[Ice-Tray]

It's fascinating that the same group of posters who'll routinely say, "you shouldn't criticize Pierre Dorion because he's an NHL GM and you're sitting on your couch" will so quickly shit on Kyle Dubas or any other GM/executive, so long as they're not employed by the Ottawa Senators.

Same thing with coaching. Very funny to see it play out.

"You have no idea what it takes to be an NHL coach so how dare you criticize DJ Smith! He's forgotten more about hockey than you'll ever know!"
- Goes to Around the NHL thread -
"Bruce Cassidy is a terrible coach every player hates him!!!"

*Kyle Dubas would not be my choice to take over as the GM of this team.

Conversely, one could look at Dubas specifically and argue that he has struggled to get a young team brimming with star power over the hump in the playoffs, and surmise that he may not be a good choice to get our young team brimming with star power over the hump in the playoffs.

If a change from PD is required, perhaps there is a more suitable option than one that has such obvious negative comparison points.

Those are exactly the simple types of situational comparisons that are perfect to make from the arm chair.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Conversely, one could look at Dubas specifically and argue that he has struggled to get a young team brimming with star power over the hump in the playoffs, and surmise that he may not be a good choice to get our young team brimming with star power over the hump in the playoffs.

If a change from PD is required, perhaps there is a more suitable option than one that has such obvious negative comparison points.

Those are exactly the simple types of situational comparisons that are perfect to make from the arm chair.

Yes, there are all sorts of reasons to doubt Dubas' ability to ever build a Stanley Cup winning team. It's okay to acknowledge them. He's made tons (tons) of mistakes.

Just like Pierre Dorion. It's just so funny how many posters, you in particular, would never ever ever ever say that Pierre Dorion has made mistakes. There's an explanation for it all. Everything is going amazingly well. But Dubas? Ahh he's terrible! No idea what he's doing! What a loser!

But I agree, I wouldn't pick Dubas as the guy to take over for this team. We need someone with a winning pedigree.

Jim Nill only signed a 1-year extension in Dallas to stay as GM through the end of 23/24. If I'm the new ownership group, I'm backing up a Brinks truck to his door and giving him the President of Hockey Ops title here.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Yes, there are all sorts of reasons to doubt Dubas' ability to ever build a Stanley Cup winning team. It's okay to acknowledge them. He's made tons (tons) of mistakes.

Just like Pierre Dorion. It's just so funny how many posters, you in particular, would never ever ever ever say that Pierre Dorion has made mistakes. There's an explanation for it all. Everything is going amazingly well. But Dubas? Ahh he's terrible! No idea what he's doing! What a loser!

But I agree, I wouldn't pick Dubas as the guy to take over for this team. We need someone with a winning pedigree.

Jim Nill only signed a 1-year extension in Dallas to stay as GM through the end of 23/24. If I'm the new ownership group, I'm backing up a Brinks truck to his door and giving him the President of Hockey Ops title here.

Oh I don’t know Dave, I discuss mistakes often enough for my liking, I just don’t like dwelling on them, and am more interested in the reasoning behind decision instead. Other like to play expert and post about what should have happened. I like to know and understand why PD makes his decision, and don’t care as much what other fans think about their own expertise on the matter. In the end it’s arguing about hockey and I’m fine with it.

You seem to wear criticism like a badge of honour, I view it as a waste of time and energy in the context of sports entertainment. Trades work or they don’t, with a whole spectrum in between, and a whole lot more opinions either way, I like context, reasons, and explanations from the source. Just different strokes, and I have more than earned your jabs so I’m not sweating them.

I like the over all team and direction so it’s easy for me not get bogged down, or exaggerate minor moves. Its also not a math equation. As long as we continue to make more good lives for the team, it really doesn’t matter how many smaller moves don’t work along the way; every team has these struggles, it’s the nature of gambling on people and performance. It’s that simple for me, but I understand that other people do different.

Your characterization of my opinons shared about Dubas is weird and lacks a connection to anything I actually said. My opinion was about as crystal clear as I could make it and had very little to do with anything beyond tangible results. PD has done well over all this n terms of the rebuild, that’s what I think so I remain supportive. Dubas looks to be failing in his job of taking a playoff team to the next level.

Why would we target a GM who hasn’t been able to get his young star studded team over the hump, if/when we are looking to get our star studded team over the hump. It just doesn’t look like a good fit. If anything TO will be competing with us for the same person to fill the same role.

I don’t have to love PD or hate Dubas, or any other min max argument to prefer a solution that actually fit the problem.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Its also not a math equation. As long as we continue to make more good lives for the team, it really doesn’t matter how many smaller moves don’t work along the way; every team has these struggles, it’s the nature of gambling on people and performance. It’s that simple for me, but I understand that other people do different.

That doesn't seem to be true, for you, in the case of Kyle Dubas though...

Either way, you keep doing you!

 

[Golden_Jet]

Hell no to Dubas, keep him away.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

I mean that story held water after our first loss to the leafs back in the day, but after 4 you stop making excuses for each years failures and look at the big picture. Most people knew what we were missing each year, and each year we failed to address it.

That’s on the GM. You keep talking about the players, but we’re talking about the GM, and Dubas has done little to nothing to help his young roster year after year. In fact he has let guys go that would likely help them come playoff time.

A new GM would do wonders for TO because as we know the new guy often just needs to tweak the lineup just right to turn a group of talented young stars into a playoff winner.

TO looks to be the exact team that needs a new vision to get them over the hump.

I don’t know what we were missing. It wasnt**** Gary roberts. I think a lot hinges on a couple bounces. And the narrative suddenly evaporates.

If lalime makes the easy saves in game 7. The whole narrative of that team being soft goes away.

We JUST made the conference efinals game 7 the year before lol. And lalime was great. How could we possibly be soft?

 

[Hale The Villain]

Yes, there are all sorts of reasons to doubt Dubas' ability to ever build a Stanley Cup winning team. It's okay to acknowledge them. He's made tons (tons) of mistakes.

On that note, examining his trade history:

Good:
Karlsson for Norris, Tierney, DeMelo, Balcers, 1st (Stutzle), 2nd (Rees), 2nd (Ostapchuk)
Pageau for 1st, 2nd (Greig, Kleven)
Dzingel for Duclair, two 2nds (later traded)
Brassard for Gustavsson, 1st (JBD)
Dadonov for Holden, 3rd (E.Pettersson)
Cap space for Coburn, Paquette, 2nd (Nordberg)
Lazar for 2nd (Formenton)
5th (Drozg) for Condon

Bad
Zibanejad, 2nd (Berggren) for Brassard
Stone for Brannstrom, 2nd (Sokolov)
Turris, Bowers, 1st (Byram) for Duchene
Duchene for Abramov, Davidsson, 1st (Thomson)
Hoffman for Boedker
Gustavsson for Talbot
1st (Korchinski) + 2nd (Ludwinski) + 3rd for DeBrincat
Paul for Joseph + 4th
Dahlen for Burrows
2nd for Murray
2nd for Stepan

Obviously made a larger number of deals than this, but I just looked at the trades that were consequential and were either clearly good or bad moves.

Made some good trades but overall he's made more bad deals and importantly the bad deals have been far bigger and more consequential than most of the good deals.

That, combined with his horrible cap management (which I pointed out earlier in this thread), objectively makes him a bottom tier GM.

I don't know how you can look at his history of trades (and overall acquisitions for that matter) and come to the conclusion that Dorion has done a good enough job overall to remain in his role, but I expect the usual suspects will find a way to convince themselves of it, regardless of the facts.

 

[bicboi64]

I don't know how you can look at his history of trades (and overall acquisitions for that matter) and come to the conclusion that Dorion has done a good enough job overall to remain in his role, but I expect the usual suspects will find a way to convince themselves of it, regardless of the facts.

I also think the Melnyk restraints are overblown. Plenty of money was spent, just on bad bets by Dorion. Dorion isn't the only gm in the league dealing with a cheap owner and he won't be the last.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Matchups, luck, I get it. But at the same time we needed an add each year going in and we got guys that didn’t help at all.

I totally hear you.

That doesn't seem to be true, for you, in the case of Kyle Dubas though...

Either way, you keep doing you!

Lol okie dokie Dave!

I think we’ll both just keep on keeping on as usual.

 

[BankStreetParade]

I also think the Melnyk restraints are overblown. Plenty of money was spent, just on bad bets by Dorion. Dorion isn't the only gm in the league dealing with a cheap owner and he won't be the last.

Is it really? We were like $20M under the ceiling in 2018-19. In 2019-20, we spent less than $60M on an $81.5M ceiling, making us, far and away, the lowest spending team that year, verging on a cap violation. For 3 or 4 years, the only AGM was a lawyer who had never been in management at any level of hockey. Many of our star players left during the rebuild because the organization, ie. the owner, was unwilling to pay market rates for their contracts. And regardless of how those moves turned out, we still had a severe restriction on competitiveness because of the owner and his unwillingness to spend in the right areas.

I'm honestly incredulous that anyone on this forum thinks Melnyk's influence on this team was overblown. I can't think of a term more opposite to what actually happened over the last 7-8 years.

 

[bicboi64]

Is it really? We were like $20M under the ceiling in 2018-19. In 2019-20, we spent less than $60M on an $81.5M ceiling, making us, far and away, the lowest spending team that year, verging on a cap violation. For 3 or 4 years, the only AGM was a lawyer who had never been in management at any level of hockey. Many of our star players left during the rebuild because the organization, ie. the owner, was unwilling to pay market rates for their contracts. And regardless of how those moves turned out, we still had a severe restriction on competitiveness because of the owner and his unwillingness to spend in the right areas.

I'm honestly incredulous that anyone on this forum thinks Melnyk's influence on this team was overblown. I can't think of a term more opposite to what actually happened over the last 7-8 years.

Where were Melnyk's financial restraints when we bought out Ryan due to salary reasons, but then literally spent more money than what his salary would have been right after his buy out?

Where were Melnyk's restraints when acquiring $4.5 million per season + signing bonuses for Zaitsevs contract?

Where were Melnyk's restraints when not wanting to pay DeMelo $3 million, only to spend more on the likes of Gudbranson, JBrown,etc...?

Obviously there were restraints, but Dorion still spent money with what funds he had, its just his decisions sucked.

 

[Larionov]

The Sedins and the Pronger trade are his best moves, aside from that he's pretty mediocre as a gm.

Tell you what - if I had those two moves on my resume I would dine out on them for the rest of my career. ;-) The gymnastics he had to go through to acquire the Sedins in particular were absolutely wild, and a brilliant piece of work.

Has he made mistakes? Absolutely, but he always makes them with confidence. ;-) It would be nice to have a guy with a bit of swagger in our front office for once as opposed to an always nervous Dorion who gives off such wimpy vibes.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Where were Melnyk's financial restraints when we bought out Ryan due to salary reasons, but then literally spent more money than what his salary would have been right after his buy out?

Where were Melnyk's restraints when acquiring $4.5 million per season + signing bonuses for Zaitsevs contract?

Where were Melnyk's restraints when not wanting to pay DeMelo $3 million, only to spend more on the likes of Gudbranson, JBrown,etc...?

Obviously there were restraints, but Dorion still spent money with what funds he had, its just his decisions sucked.

I thought this would lead with Murray/Dadonov.

 

[bicboi64]

I thought this would lead with Murray/Dadonov.

for what its worth, the first point does. Both of those guys cost more than Ryan's salary did. Neither of them provided any "leadership" that Ryan didn't already have and because Dorion decided it was a good idea to buy out Ryan and then acquire Murray, we're still literally paying for both of them to not be here.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

for what its worth, the first point does. Both of those guys cost more than Ryan's salary did. Neither of them provided any "leadership" that Ryan didn't already have and because Dorion decided it was a good idea to buy out Ryan and then acquire Murray, we're still literally paying for both of them to not be here.

Just making sure all the bases are covered

 

[Ice-Tray]

Tell you what - if I had those two moves on my resume I would dine out on them for the rest of my career. ;-) The gymnastics he had to go through to acquire the Sedins in particular were absolutely wild, and a brilliant piece of work.

Has he made mistakes? Absolutely, but he always makes them with confidence. ;-) It would be nice to have a guy with a bit of swagger in our front office for once as opposed to an always nervous Dorion who gives off such wimpy vibes.

Socially awkward vibes sure, but the guy has no problem making huge trades. Not sure nervous and whimpy really apply.

 

[Loach]

Ottawa has always had a budget on salary. Right from the start..pre cap and post cap. It seems more about how the money that the team has is spent, as opposed to how much is spent. If you throw away 60m or 80m....you're still throwing it away. That seems to be the problem.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Was the

Ottawa has always had a budget on salary. Right from the start..pre cap and post cap. It seems more about how the money that the team has is spent, as opposed to how much is spent. If you throw away 60m or 80m....you're still throwing it away. That seems to be the problem.

True. And with the budget thing it is an bigger indictment on Dorion.

He should have been hyper vigilant of getting good bargains knowing how valuable our dollars were, instead he wasted so much money.

 

[JD1]

On that note, examining his trade history:

Good:
Karlsson for Norris, Tierney, DeMelo, Balcers, 1st (Stutzle), 2nd (Rees), 2nd (Ostapchuk)
Pageau for 1st, 2nd (Greig, Kleven)
Dzingel for Duclair, two 2nds (later traded)
Brassard for Gustavsson, 1st (JBD)
Dadonov for Holden, 3rd (E.Pettersson)
Cap space for Coburn, Paquette, 2nd (Nordberg)
Lazar for 2nd (Formenton)
5th (Drozg) for Condon

Bad
Zibanejad, 2nd (Berggren) for Brassard
Stone for Brannstrom, 2nd (Sokolov)
Turris, Bowers, 1st (Byram) for Duchene
Duchene for Abramov, Davidsson, 1st (Thomson)
Hoffman for Boedker
Gustavsson for Talbot
1st (Korchinski) + 2nd (Ludwinski) + 3rd for DeBrincat
Paul for Joseph + 4th
Dahlen for Burrows
2nd for Murray
2nd for Stepan

Obviously made a larger number of deals than this, but I just looked at the trades that were consequential and were either clearly good or bad moves.

Made some good trades but overall he's made more bad deals and importantly the bad deals have been far bigger and more consequential than most of the good deals.

That, combined with his horrible cap management (which I pointed out earlier in this thread), objectively makes him a bottom tier GM.

I don't know how you can look at his history of trades (and overall acquisitions for that matter) and come to the conclusion that Dorion has done a good enough job overall to remain in his role, but I expect the usual suspects will find a way to convince themselves of it, regardless of the facts.

Who made you the arbiter of what is factually true?

A little self reflection... you're probably called out for your bias more than any poster on this forum.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

On that note, examining his trade history:

Good:
Karlsson for Norris, Tierney, DeMelo, Balcers, 1st (Stutzle), 2nd (Rees), 2nd (Ostapchuk)
Pageau for 1st, 2nd (Greig, Kleven)
Dzingel for Duclair, two 2nds (later traded)
Brassard for Gustavsson, 1st (JBD)
Dadonov for Holden, 3rd (E.Pettersson)
Cap space for Coburn, Paquette, 2nd (Nordberg)
Lazar for 2nd (Formenton)
5th (Drozg) for Condon

Bad
Zibanejad, 2nd (Berggren) for Brassard
Stone for Brannstrom, 2nd (Sokolov)
Turris, Bowers, 1st (Byram) for Duchene
Duchene for Abramov, Davidsson, 1st (Thomson)
Hoffman for Boedker
Gustavsson for Talbot
1st (Korchinski) + 2nd (Ludwinski) + 3rd for DeBrincat
Paul for Joseph + 4th
Dahlen for Burrows
2nd for Murray
2nd for Stepan

Obviously made a larger number of deals than this, but I just looked at the trades that were consequential and were either clearly good or bad moves.

Made some good trades but overall he's made more bad deals and importantly the bad deals have been far bigger and more consequential than most of the good deals.

That, combined with his horrible cap management (which I pointed out earlier in this thread), objectively makes him a bottom tier GM.

I don't know how you can look at his history of trades (and overall acquisitions for that matter) and come to the conclusion that Dorion has done a good enough job overall to remain in his role, but I expect the usual suspects will find a way to convince themselves of it, regardless of the facts.

AWESOME
Zibanejad, 2nd (Berggren) for Brassard - POP FLY Zib wanted NYC
Stone for Brannstrom, 2nd (Sokolov) - TRIPLE Stone has back issues and we would have been saddled with months off per season BIG WIN for PD
Turris, Bowers, 1st (Byram) for Duchene - Cup run made sense. Turris/Bowers, HOME RUN. Dutchy was a good, and we got the 1st back.
Duchene for Abramov, Davidsson, 1st (Thomson) - BASE HIT Made sense at the time.... regained a 1st
Hoffman for Boedker - WALK had to for EK - no one wanted that bad apple after that.
Gustavsson for Talbot - RBI
1st (Korchinski) + 2nd (Ludwinski) + 3rd for DeBrincat - RBI DOUBLE
Paul for Joseph + 4th - STRIKE OUT
Dahlen for Burrows - Made sense for short term.
2nd for Murray - FLY BALL, DEEP CENTER FIELD
2nd for Stepan - BASE HIT

 

[Icelevel]

Why? What the hell has Dubas done? Given bad contracts, traded for MURRAY! Took him 5 years to figure out you need sand paper. Has not got a number 1 d man. He inherited Matthews, Nylander, Marner etc. Honestly tell me one good thing he has done. The only thing I can think of is hiring Keefe.

Have a feeling that in the smaller market with less insanity and better support from guys like Mann and bowness he would fit in and make good decisions.