Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[bert]

I don't buy this, he's been involved in hockey since he was a kid, played up until getting out of high-school. He's been exposed to top hockey minds since he was a kid.

I mean, Scotty Bowman played just a few seasons of junior in the old Q before cracking his skull and never playing again, he became among the most successful coaches of all time, you don't need to have played pro hockey to have a great mind for the game.

I'm not a fan of Dorion, but never playing at the highest levels isn't what's holding him back imo.

Dorion played house league. He clearly can't evaluate pro talent. What they have both been exposed to is night and day. Dorion walked over the bingo logo in the dressing room. Didn't even know that's a big no no. He fell into this position because he was a Melnyk yes man. You may not buy it but it's damn true. The difference between house league and the Q is massive. As if you just compared Dorion to Bowman... come on man.

 

[Micklebot]

Dorion played house league. He clearly can't evaluate pro talent. What they have both been exposed to is night and day. Dorion walked over the bingo logo in the dressing room. Didn't even know that's a big no no. He fell into this position because he was a Melnyk yes man. You may not buy it but it's damn true. The difference between house league and the Q is massive. As if you just compared Dorion to Bowman... come on man.

Again, he's been exposed to and talking to pros in the business since his teens, working with them since he got out of university, you may not want to admit it but that goes a long way. The arrogance is astounding that just because he never played university or CHL hockey he is inherently incapable of becoming a strong hockey person is just weird. He sucks, but it's not because he never played, a couple of seasons playing for a CHL team would not have fundamentally changed his abilities as a scout or GM,

 

[bert]

Again, he's been exposed to and talking to pros in the business since his teens, working with them since he got out of university, you may not want to admit it but that goes a long way. The arrogance is astounding that just because he never played university or CHL hockey he is inherently incapable of becoming a strong hockey person is just weird. He sucks, but it's not because he never played, a couple of seasons playing for a CHL team would not have fundamentally changed his abilities as a scout or GM,

You're confusing two things here. I am not saying a person is incapable of being a good hockey professional if they didn't play at a high level. I do think it's helps but it's not impossible. I'm saying Pierre Dorion is not that person. Due to a few aspects of what i have witnessed. First of all he has shown time and time again he is not a leader. How he carries himself, how he answeres questions and how he treats people around him is why I don't believe he should be leading an NHL organization. This is first and foremost.

Secondly it's his body of work. It's not been very good they have missed the playoffs for 6 straight years. They have almost no futures in prospects or picks left. His asset management has been bad whether his hands are tied or not he has over paid for bad players many times and sold low on good players. He struggles to identify players on his own team that are good. This is where I think not playing has impacted his ability to evaluate. Maybe it's another reason but the bottom line is he's bad at it.

 

[DrEasy]

He showed some good vision and a good stick when he was up. He got like no ice time but did some good in it. I dont know why people want to give up on him so quickly its weird. He was always going to have a longer development curve, big guy needs to get faster. He clearly has offensive talent, when you are that big with decent hockey sense you can get in the way and be a bottom 6 guy. Whats the rush to give up on him anyways?... This team has no depth and is against the cap.

To make it to the bigs he needs to reinvent himself as a 3rd or 4th line grinder. His offense will then play out beautifully. His skating can't be much worse than Watson's. But he needs to up the intensity 500%.

 

[Cosmix]

You're confusing two things here. I am not saying a person is incapable of being a good hockey professional if they didn't play at a high level. I do think it's helps but it's not impossible. I'm saying Pierre Dorion is not that person. Due to a few aspects of what i have witnessed. First of all he has shown time and time again he is not a leader. How he carries himself, how he answeres questions and how he treats people around him is why I don't believe he should be leading an NHL organization. This is first and foremost.

Secondly it's his body of work. It's not been very good they have missed the playoffs for 6 straight years. They have almost no futures in prospects or picks left. His asset management has been bad whether his hands are tied or not he has over paid for bad players many times and sold low on good players. He struggles to identify players on his own team that are good. This is where I think not playing has impacted his ability to evaluate. Maybe it's another reason but the bottom line is he's bad at it.

I agree that Dorion is bad at being an NHL GM. He must go asap. I suspect he has less than 1 season to go at the most.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I don't buy this, he's been involved in hockey since he was a kid, played up until getting out of high-school. He's been exposed to top hockey minds since he was a kid.

I mean, Scotty Bowman played just a few seasons of junior in the old Q before cracking his skull and never playing again, he became among the most successful coaches of all time, you don't need to have played pro hockey to have a great mind for the game.

I'm not a fan of Dorion, but never playing at the highest levels isn't what's holding him back imo.

what do you think is holding him back ? External factors only such as Melnyk then his passing, the board, then the sale? or is there something about Dorion himself?

Julien Brisbois is a pretty good numbers guy, hasn't played at any significant level as far as I know either. I'd bet on Brisbois, if he and Dorion played chess though. If it was who sells the most cars on the lot over the weekend .. I'd probably go with Dorion.

I do not like Dorion's body of work. I think there were some pretty major screw ups and I do not like the way he has handled the rebuild. To his credit by hook or by crook he has assembled a good young core and has most of them under term contracts. I think the roster construction going into 2022/23 could have been better , a little better and we are a playoff team. Its hard to tell what his vision is regarding roster construction and he tends to spin things after the fact to suit him.

 

[Micklebot]

what do you think is holding him back ? External factors only such as Melnyk then his passing, the board, then the sale? or is there something about Dorion himself?

Certainly some of those things have influenced past decisions, and I'm sure there are aspect about himself that influenced the choices he's made as well.

Wrt the latter, I find he seems to get tunnel vision rather than adapting if his target isn't available.

 

[Big Muddy]

PD I think has made way more good moves than bad lately, Some of the bad ones from the past sure were crippling though.

Its fair to say he's been handcuffed by finances, lack of pro scouting staff, being a small market and owner issues... but he's made some of his mess himself. The Stone trade stands out, as does the Murray signing. The Duchene trade. Zibby trade. Some smaller ones like moving Brown because he had a deal for a dman and needed to clear room but then the deal fell through. I don't think Smith was a bad hire, but perhaps fair to say Boucher was (even though we went on that run). Some bad contracts, though usually smaller ones where maybe he had to add to get them to sign in a small market but stil too many bad deals for mid players that might have cost him the opportunity for one good one.

But he drafted Stu and Sandy (maybe Stu was a layup but Sandy was fantastic). Brady & Batherson too. Karlsson trade was unreal - maybe a bit lucky to get pick #3 but you can't say getting Norris was lucky. Maybe Giroux wanted to be here but how many guys left for the opposite reason. Debrincat trade value was insane. So was Chychrun. Signing Brady, Bath and Stu to those contracts... dang! Signing Zub was a win, re-signing him is tba but we all loved that contract at the time. Zaitsev.Ceci trade is probably a loss but I frickin loved Brown and Ceci had to go. But I think we blew it not moving Zaitsev early.

So.. a very mixed bag. I would be cool with him being let go but only if we had a target in mind. An upgrade to finish the roster. I really like a lot of this roster, it just needs to be finished.

Not sure what the bolded meant. I will say that we traded two 1st round picks in back to back years with the Debrincat (8th overall) & Chychrun trades which is fairly substantial. The Debrincat trade was more short term in nature - one definite year and one maybe year (or an expensive 2nd year if the Q.O. is implemented). So, pretty high price for what is essentially a short term contract given the 1st year is the only certainty.

 

[aragorn]

IDK - they built a team that had 5 guys over 60 pts which does not include any D or Norris something that has not happened for over a decade, if ever in Ottawa, extremely rare And this was in a season where both Batherson & DBC some have said had a down season.

- the D had 3 guys over 30 pts which includes Chychrun's Arz & Ott pts which hasn't happened since the team that went to the 2006-07 SC finals. This is in a yr where some have said that Chabot had a down season & Sanderson was a rookie & Zub was injured & missed 29 games.

- the special teams have improved dramatically, the PP, PK & faceoffs are all much better than last yr especially with Giroux taking important faceoffs. Ott led the league in PP opportunities & had a top 10 PP in the NHL.

- if Formenton returns & Pinto starts next season on the 3rd line, that could be two players who are much better than anyone we have had on the 3rd line for most of this past season. Add Greig, Ostapchuk, Gauthier or Sokolov & they could have a pt producing 3rd line.

- the best players on this team have not yet reached their prime where the majority of them are under 26 yrs old. If they can acquire a decent NHL goalie who can stay healthy for the majority of the season, maybe play 50 plus games & be healthy going into the playoffs this team could be dangerous.

 

[DrEasy]

what do you think is holding him back ? External factors only such as Melnyk then his passing, the board, then the sale? or is there something about Dorion himself?

Julien Brisbois is a pretty good numbers guy, hasn't played at any significant level as far as I know either. I'd bet on Brisbois, if he and Dorion played chess though. If it was who sells the most cars on the lot over the weekend .. I'd probably go with Dorion.

I do not like Dorion's body of work. I think there were some pretty major screw ups and I do not like the way he has handled the rebuild. To his credit by hook or by crook he has assembled a good young core and has most of them under term contracts. I think the roster construction going into 2022/23 could have been better , a little better and we are a playoff team. Its hard to tell what his vision is regarding roster construction and he tends to spin things after the fact to suit him.

He's definitely a better seller than a buyer, so I'd only trust him with the sales aspect if he decided for a new career in the car business.

You didn't ask me specifically, but I think one big thing that has held him back is the lack of a proper competent structure: a POHO, an army of scouts who has the budget to travel beyond Aylmer, a proper analytics department, basically people who can give him decent evidence-supported advice and who can hold him back when he lets his emotions dictate his decisions.

But I guess building such a structure is one of his own duties, and maybe free from Melnyk budgets and constraints he can eventually assemble it (Bowness for example is probably a step in the right direction). I think people who are more used to big professional structures in the NHL could come in at this point with a better idea of what it takes and who to hire though...

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

He's definitely a better seller than a buyer, so I'd only trust him with the sales aspect if he decided for a reconversion into the car business.

You didn't ask me specifically, but I think one big thing that has held him back is the lack of a proper competent structure: a POHO, an army of scouts who has the budget to travel beyond Aylmer, a proper analytics department, basically people who can give him decent evidence-supported advice and who can hold him back when he lets his emotions dictate his decisions.

But I guess building such a structure is one of his own duties, and maybe free from Melnyk budgets and constraints he can eventually assemble it (Bowness for example is probably a step in the right direction). I think people who are more used to big professional structures in the NHL could come in at this point with a better idea of what it takes and who to hire though...

Good answer... Some of that is on him. Pro scouting is weak and he does some himself which does not seem to help. Definitely should have been addressed but who knows the conversations going on in there. Analytics has been expanded as a tool used across the league. A POHO between Dorion and Melnyk definitely seems like it could have helped.

 

[Que]

The unfortunate truth is it’s nearly impossible to fairly evaluate Dorion’s body of work.

His most glaring criticisms are usually tied to Melnyk and his influence (or interference), his pro scouting (or lack thereof) and amateur scouting (our draft results are boom and bust while drafting players that are considered the opposite).

He is his own worst enemy though. As @bert said he has at times demonstrated a poor ability to evaluate his own pro players. I think a lot of that might be the human factor and the Ottawa factor but I will admit he looks at our roster through rose coloured glasses do his detriment.

Personally, I believe he deserves one more year as GM. It’s a short leash but he did sign Jim and Brady to their deals - which look amazing. He’s got work to do to the roster but he does have a few assets to work with which he also generated.

Had we drafted Othmann instead of Boucher are we having this discussion? And is that his fault? I think both answers are no. This is no K. Holland vs. A. Potato case to me.

 

[aragorn]

This isn't a one man show, there are plenty of people in this organization involved with a lot of decisions on roster personnel although the GM has the last say, but he takes in everyone's opinion on the matter at hand. It will be interesting to see who returns next yr & who doesn't in management & coaching.

 

[Ice-Tray]

He's definitely a better seller than a buyer, so I'd only trust him with the sales aspect if he decided for a new career in the car business.

You didn't ask me specifically, but I think one big thing that has held him back is the lack of a proper competent structure: a POHO, an army of scouts who has the budget to travel beyond Aylmer, a proper analytics department, basically people who can give him decent evidence-supported advice and who can hold him back when he lets his emotions dictate his decisions.

But I guess building such a structure is one of his own duties, and maybe free from Melnyk budgets and constraints he can eventually assemble it (Bowness for example is probably a step in the right direction). I think people who are more used to big professional structures in the NHL could come in at this point with a better idea of what it takes and who to hire though...

I don’t think you need an analytic department.

There is already a service that gathers everything you could want for less than hiring a department of people to do the same job.

What you need is a manager and coaching staff that are open to using analytics as a tool in the tool box.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Fire Dorion

Bowness as Interim GM

Look for New GM

Dorion is a miasma of losing.

 

[Que]

This isn't a one man show, there are plenty of people in this organization involved with a lot of decisions on roster personnel although the GM has the last say, but he takes in everyone's opinion on the matter at hand. It will be interesting to see who returns next yr & who doesn't in management & coaching.

I’m curious to see how Dorion handles this off-season wrt personnel, though I feel like he is again dealing with a handicap as the franchise is currently for sale so I doubt he gets to make as many personnel changes as he may like - if any.

 

[boxbox]

Your captain is yelling he’s going to win the Cup in the market, you yourself just said they will be in the playoffs for 10 years but when a reporter asked you where you see your team next year you’re afraid to say it.

Leadership is about being brave and asking those around you to be brave. If your point is he’s afraid of the fanbase reaction to expecting this rebuilding team to make the playoffs - this explains everything. It’s why Dorion has never felt comfortable here, his legacy of him and Melnyck talking down the fans shows he has at best an ackward legacy with the fans and at worse he is afraid of fan reaction

No one said that's actually the reason why...it was simply me making a suggestion based on how part of the fan-base tends to over-react because apprently someone leaked a step by step manual for the perfect rebuild and they seem to have gotten all the copies. Either way I am OK with what he said as I believe the intention of what he said was to keep current expectations at bay at the same showing confidence that the team will reach its potential and be competitive for some time.

I never heard anything about the yelling in the market scene. If true (no reason to believe its not), then that just seems like immaturity at work and more the reason why maybe Dorion might not feel the team is ready. Again, just my theory.

Leadership is or can be a lot of things. Encouraging people to be brave as you suggested is for sure one of them. Be brave but be smart. There is nothing brave about talking shit and saying what you will do when you have yet to even qualify for it; encouraging and supporting such claims is anything but strong& good leadership. One must become brave in order to overcome fear, but for some the same amount of courage and bravery is required to admit what and why they fear and face it . Its all how we choose to view it I suppose. I view it as him stating what is to be expected once the team gets to a specific level which he feels they are close to but have yet to reach. Dorion never said when the streak will begin. I am of the belief that the team being young, skilled and with the core locked up long term will go on a strech of consecutive playoff appearances (maybe not 10) once they finally qualify.

 

[Tuna99]

No one said that's actually the reason why...it was simply me making a suggestion based on how part of the fan-base tends to over-react because apprently someone leaked a step by step manual for the perfect rebuild and they seem to have gotten all the copies. Either way I am OK with what he said as I believe the intention of what he said was to keep current expectations at bay at the same showing confidence that the team will reach its potential and be competitive for some time.

I never heard anything about the yelling in the market scene. If true (no reason to believe its not), then that just seems like immaturity at work and more the reason why maybe Dorion might not feel the team is ready. Again, just my theory.

Leadership is or can be a lot of things. Encouraging people to be brave as you suggested is for sure one of them. Be brave but be smart. There is nothing brave about talking shit and saying what you will do when you have yet to even qualify for it; encouraging and supporting such claims is anything but strong& good leadership. One must become brave in order to overcome fear, but for some the same amount of courage and bravery is required to admit what and why they fear and face it . Its all how we choose to view it I suppose. I view it as him stating what is to be expected once the team gets to a specific level which he feels they are close to but have yet to reach. Dorion never said when the streak will begin. I am of the belief that the team being young, skilled and with the core locked up long term will go on a strech of consecutive playoff appearances (maybe not 10) once they finally qualify.

But explain the Talbot trade? Dorion himself said it was a risk, and it was obviously made with the short term in mind (an immediate upgrade in goal which obviously did not happen but you give up youth and cap space for a goalie who can get you to the playoffs)

Same to an extend with Hamonic and Holden, being a great guy is important; being a guy who can help get your team to the playoffs is more importanter

 

[bicboi64]

But explain the Talbot trade? Dorion himself said it was a risk, and it was obviously made with the short term in mind (an immediate upgrade in goal which obviously did not happen but you give up youth and cap space for a goalie who can get you to the playoffs)

Same to an extend with Hamonic and Holden, being a great guy is important; being a guy who can help get your team to the playoffs is more importanter

Winning teams add those spare parts that bring that extra bit of leadership or tangibles after they've made the playoffs or are competitive, they focus on having fundamentally good players first. I guess Dorion wanted to see what happens if you get that "leadership" first.

 

[Cosmix]

I don’t think you need an analytic department.

There is already a service that gathers everything you could want for less than hiring a department of people to do the same job.

What you need is a manager and coaching staff that are open to using analytics as a tool in the tool box.

I agree. An analytics "department" implies many people. I think a Head of analytics and a support manager would do the job nicely.

The unfortunate truth is it’s nearly impossible to fairly evaluate Dorion’s body of work.

His most glaring criticisms are usually tied to Melnyk and his influence (or interference), his pro scouting (or lack thereof) and amateur scouting (our draft results are boom and bust while drafting players that are considered the opposite).

He is his own worst enemy though. As @bert said he has at times demonstrated a poor ability to evaluate his own pro players. I think a lot of that might be the human factor and the Ottawa factor but I will admit he looks at our roster through rose coloured glasses do his detriment.

Personally, I believe he deserves one more year as GM. It’s a short leash but he did sign Jim and Brady to their deals - which look amazing. He’s got work to do to the roster but he does have a few assets to work with which he also generated.

Had we drafted Othmann instead of Boucher are we having this discussion? And is that his fault? I think both answers are no. This is no K. Holland vs. A. Potato case to me.

No to another year of Dorion. He has made too many mistakes and I don';t want to have him in charge. Hire an experienced GM with a track record of success.

 

[JD1]

No to another year of Dorion. He has made too many mistakes and I don';t want to have him in charge. Hire an experienced GM with a track record of success.

You understand that there's no such thing as an experienced GM with a track record of success? A GM with a current track record of success is employed elsewhere and not looking

An unemployed guy looking for a job has a more current resume of failure.

 

[Hale The Villain]

You understand that there's no such thing as an experienced GM with a track record of success? A GM with a current track record of success is employed elsewhere and not looking

An unemployed guy looking for a job has a more current resume of failure.

Employed GMs are competent because they are employed
Unemployed GMs aren't competent because they are unemployed

Genius level logic applied here.

Gillis, Wilson, Lombardi, Burke and Shero are all examples of former GMs who were tiers above Dorion and far better at their job when they were in their roles.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

Employed GMs are competent because they are employed
Unemployed GMs aren't competent because they are unemployed

Genius level logic applied here.

Gillis, Wilson, Lombardi, Burke and Shero are all examples of former GMs who were tiers above Dorion and far better at their job when they were in their roles.

Burke is not above PD

 

[Ice-Tray]

You understand that there's no such thing as an experienced GM with a track record of success? A GM with a current track record of success is employed elsewhere and not looking

An unemployed guy looking for a job has a more current resume of failure.

This is what I don’t get about people wanting Dubas. He is currently failing with a team in the exact position that our team is just about to enter.

That is not a track record of success to covet.

 

[Tuna99]

This is what I don’t get about people wanting Dubas. He is currently failing with a team in the exact position that our team is just about to enter.

That is not a track record of success to covet.

I love what Dubas has done culturally and community wise in Toronto - I’d like him here.

But his goalie evaluations are horse shit. That’s the only thing that worries me with him.

But literally he just has to hire a coach and trade for a goalie and he can put it on cruise control for 3 years