Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[GCK]

2021 Ostapchuk is our best pick. Not much else to like about it. I think 10OA was a miss for that spot
2019 is mixed for me due to the 1st round pick which I weigh heavier. probably deserves a good vs mixed; 2017 is similar although fewer picks.

2019 could have 4 NHLers which is great.

2021 is unknown until Boucher either busts or plays. If all we get out of 2021 is Ostapchuk it's a bust but if we get a 3rd line winger who elevates in the playoffs out of Boucher then it's a completely different story.

Interestingly we have had 3 drafts in our history where we got 80 games or less out of the entire draft. That's bad drafting. 2002, 2007, 2014.

 

[bicboi64]

2019 could have 4 NHLers which is great.

2021 is unknown until Boucher either busts or plays. If all we get out of 2021 is Ostapchuk it's a bust but if we get a 3rd line winger who elevates in the playoffs out of Boucher then it's a completely different story.

Interestingly we have had 3 drafts in our history where we got 80 games or less out of the entire draft. That's bad drafting. 2002, 2007, 2014.

2014 looks particularly ugly. Englund, Gendron, Eiserman, Summers, and Perron.

2007 is a bit easy to "forgive", we just came off a cup final, but that was definitely a bad draft for us (O'Brien, Bashkirov, and Ben Blood)

2002 I don't remember much but after a quick search, that's the draft with (in another dimension sens legend) Kaigorodov.

 

[Ouroboros]

Come on, now - the 2021 draft is bad. I think when you make 6 picks and end up deeming only 2 of them worthy of getting an ELC you're starting from a place of major disadvantage. That doesn't even take into account how poorly things have gone for your 10th overall selection since draft day. If the Sens get 1 player out of that draft they'll probably be thrilled.

It's unfortunate, but I'm not concerned about it being a trend going forward. I think the poor performance is easily attributable to factors that won't be repeated in the future.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

I can’t wait to read this thread again in 6 months.

I imagine you don't care but that is the kind of post that does not help your reputation as a mod around here

 

[GCK]

Come on, now - the 2021 draft is bad. I think when you make 6 picks and end up deeming only 2 of them worthy of getting an ELC you're starting from a place of major disadvantage. That doesn't even take into account how poorly things have gone for your 10th overall selection since draft day. If the Sens get 1 player out of that draft they'll probably be thrilled.

It's unfortunate, but I'm not concerned about it being a trend going forward. I think the poor performance is easily attributable to factors that won't be repeated in the future.

I think Roger gets an ELC, Johansson is a couple years from a decision.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Whatever dude, save your winks - you’re being ridiculously disingenuous. I’ve said my piece and backed it up, and I didn’t have to call you a liar to get there.
Hope the irony of you behaving like the people you routinely castigate here isn’t lost on you.

Whatever dude, you didn’t back shit up. You posted about how the previous dead owner didn’t like analytics, add in that we had a tiny front office, only a handful of scouts, and you have your answer as to why we employed two part time guy to do analytics… what, we did have guys gathering data?

But since you seemed to miss some quotes at the end from the same article it looks like both PD and DJ were both supportive of analytics back then even if they didn’t have the resources to hire any of the guys listed in the article…

“Dorion can play up the importance of analytics and the information he presents, but it’s hard to take it seriously knowing that the Senators’ analytics are largely being done by Tim Pattyson and Elias Collette – their part-time analytics consultant who is still a full-time employee of the federal….”

Not sure why these guys got dumped on here, it’s not like the article bothered to look into how skilled they were with analytics…

“For a new coach like D.J. Smith, who expressed a desire and willingness to accept whatever information he can gather to help him make more informed decisions…”

We already know that the Sens have subscribed to sportslogiq for at least a few years now, so yeah my point stands.

As for you insisting I called you a liar? The irony of you taking a statement I made about people making shit up, and turning it into me calling you a ‘liar’, is indeed ironic.

 

[Ice-Tray]

The FYOUS was Melnyk nonsense that came out in like February of that year.

Dorion laid out his bubble team --> playoff team --> SC contender timeline at the end of the 2019 season.

And he could have just said "you know we did have those expectations back in 2019 but then COVID happened and progress stalled and perhaps we were all being too optimistic about the rebuild".

Instead he denied ever predicting playoffs in the past and claimed that no one at any time expected the team to make the playoffs over the last 6 seasons which is why he still has a job despite the fact that any other GM would have been shitcanned by now.

And the cherry on top is that he can't even say the word "playoffs" about the team's goals next year. So that way if we miss again he can say "well hold your horses no one expected this team to make the playoffs and that's why I deserve an 8th year. And during that 8th year I really expect this team to take it to the next tier!"

It's gobbledygook. He's done here. We are just boned because the sale is taking too long and the new owners aren't going to have time to install someone competent.

If you listen to the interview he’s talking about expectations during the rebuild, not him extolling the virtues of FYOUS in 2019 before the whole thing died with the pandemic, and then EM passing.

Plans changed obviously when no money rolled in during those years, and that was the end of spending possibilities right up until EM died.

He was very clearly talking about the rebuild and never saying it was a playoff team, and even Ian half assed suggests that PD may have forgotten that single interview.

Anyways, it’s a gotcha moment for some folks, weak and pointless, but small victories I suppose.

 

[bicboi64]

I imagine you don't care but that is the kind of post that does not help your reputation as a mod around here

Also, for what its worth. As a Dorion critic, i'd be happy to see moves that make me have to re-evaluate my position on him. Do I think it'll happen, heck no, but I want the team to succeed even if he's at the helm. Critics of Dorion aren't waiting for some "gatcha" moment to be able to complain against anonymous posters on the web. Its hockey, eating humble pie is a part of being a fan.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Does anyone think Dorion will get a job in the NHL after this?

 

[OgieO]

PD I think has made way more good moves than bad lately, Some of the bad ones from the past sure were crippling though.

Its fair to say he's been handcuffed by finances, lack of pro scouting staff, being a small market and owner issues... but he's made some of his mess himself. The Stone trade stands out, as does the Murray signing. The Duchene trade. Zibby trade. Some smaller ones like moving Brown because he had a deal for a dman and needed to clear room but then the deal fell through. I don't think Smith was a bad hire, but perhaps fair to say Boucher was (even though we went on that run). Some bad contracts, though usually smaller ones where maybe he had to add to get them to sign in a small market but stil too many bad deals for mid players that might have cost him the opportunity for one good one.

But he drafted Stu and Sandy (maybe Stu was a layup but Sandy was fantastic). Brady & Batherson too. Karlsson trade was unreal - maybe a bit lucky to get pick #3 but you can't say getting Norris was lucky. Maybe Giroux wanted to be here but how many guys left for the opposite reason. Debrincat trade value was insane. So was Chychrun. Signing Brady, Bath and Stu to those contracts... dang! Signing Zub was a win, re-signing him is tba but we all loved that contract at the time. Zaitsev.Ceci trade is probably a loss but I frickin loved Brown and Ceci had to go. But I think we blew it not moving Zaitsev early.

So.. a very mixed bag. I would be cool with him being let go but only if we had a target in mind. An upgrade to finish the roster. I really like a lot of this roster, it just needs to be finished.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

2019 could have 4 NHLers which is great.

2021 is unknown until Boucher either busts or plays. If all we get out of 2021 is Ostapchuk it's a bust but if we get a 3rd line winger who elevates in the playoffs out of Boucher then it's a completely different story.

Interestingly we have had 3 drafts in our history where we got 80 games or less out of the entire draft. That's bad drafting. 2002, 2007, 2014.

I can't tell the future. I am calling it as of what I see right now. Boucher has some tools. I don't think it was a good pick at 10OA and we are discussing drafts.

 

[PlayOn]

Does anyone think Dorion will get a job in the NHL after this?

NHL? Almost certainly. GM? No. At least not for a long time.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

NHL? Almost certainly. GM? No. At least not for a long time.

As a scout you think?

Certainly not GM or AGM. Maybe head of scouting? but in today's hyper competitive world I doubt he will be a hot commodity when he is out of a job.

From private jets to riding busses...

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Mendes: Dorion's comments yesterday were a stark departure from what he'd normally say about DJ

The Athletic's Ian Mendes joins the show to wrap up Sens GM Pierre Dorion's season ending media availabilities, what's next for the organization, and more

www.tsn.ca

 

[bicboi64]

As a scout you think?

Certainly not GM or AGM. Maybe head of scouting? but in today's hyper competitive world I doubt he will be a hot commodity when he is out of a job.

From private jets to riding busses...

I think he could end up as an assistant gm that works on contracts.

 

[Neil Patrick Harris]

No

Claire should be President of My Heart Operations

Claire's a qualified heart surgeon? Wow, she's a woman of many talents!

 

[Tuna99]

Who are the teams around us hitting 5 home runs ?

Tampa, Boston, Toronto, Florida

Florida completely remade their team from coach to top line, goalie, D and still made the playoffs.

I

 

[jhutter]

2019 could have 4 NHLers which is great.

2021 is unknown until Boucher either busts or plays. If all we get out of 2021 is Ostapchuk it's a bust but if we get a 3rd line winger who elevates in the playoffs out of Boucher then it's a completely different story.

Interestingly we have had 3 drafts in our history where we got 80 games or less out of the entire draft. That's bad drafting. 2002, 2007, 2014.

Where does this "elevates in the playoffs" idea come from? Boucher hasn't elevated his game in junior; how is his game going to elevate in the NHL playoffs? He can't stay healthy playing against teenagers. It's time to completely write off that galaxy-brain draft as one of the biggest head scratchers in team history.

You do make an interesting point about those previous draft years. '16 and '14 weren't particularly strong, either.

 

[Emerica]

*cough* *cough*

 

[Micklebot]

Florida completely remade their team from coach to top line, goalie, D and still made the playoffs.

Does "still made the playoffs" really warrant praise when the baseline they started at was "won the president's trophy"?

 

[Hale The Villain]

*cough* *cough*

Built the Sharks into a perennial playoff team, but that was a long time ago.

Might be a better fit to be team president or a senior advisor.

Wouldn't be my first choice to replace Dorion, but I'm not picky. Would take damn near anyone at this point.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

I think its easier to judge any GM's first round picks (especially if they're top 10) over their later round ones. Sokolov and Jarventie will play more next year and give us a better measure of if they were good picks. Too early to tell though. Having Stu and Sanderson graduate so early will make anyone we select after 2020 seem underwhelming

Selecting a guy in the third round that is one of the best scorers in the ahl this early and can play a shift in the nhl is a good pick. Most players picked in the third roundstruggle to play in the AHL

 

[bicboi64]

Selecting a guy in the third round that is one of the best scorers in the ahl this early and can play a shift in the nhl is a good pick. Most players picked in the third roundstruggle to play in the AHL

...Sorry mate, which player are you referring to?

 

[Micklebot]

...Sorry mate, which player are you referring to?

Likely Sokolov, though he was a 2nd rounder...