Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[Tnuoc Alucard]

What will happen to all the people who are bigger Pierre Dorion fans than Ottawa Senators fans?

Do they just leave?

 

[Ice-Tray]

Again that’s pretty rich coming from a guy who just called everyone on the board out that you like to take the actual words that people like Dorion etc say rather “made up bullshit that just gets repeated until they believe it’s true”
* it was a weird accusation (don’t worry I won’t take you calling me a liar personally) for which I then provided lots of quotes and evidence.
Kind of ironic right?

So what’s the deal? Dorion’s words not good enough for you in these cases?
Did Mendes misquote all of those words straight from Dorion’s mouth? Is he also a liar?

You provided a rant from Melnyk.

Now go and dig up comments from DJ on how he uses analytics.

You might find some discrepancies in opinion.

As form Mendes’s article, yes he clobbers PD with his FYOUS comments, the whole FYOUS thing was cringy, and died with the pandemic and the owner passing.

Now go and see if you can find a quote where PD sets the playoffs as an expectation during the rebuild…. Because that’s what he was saying in his interview.

Its a nice mix of two very different times and quotes being mashed together.

Lots of made up bullshit in here man, I would assume I called you a liar, unless you can provide that direct quote

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Can we all agree Dorion’s Senators:

A+ for amateur drafting and development

F- for pro player acquisitions and evaluations

CLAUDE GIROUX​

JAKOB CHYCHRUN

 

[Wondercarrot]

You provided a rant from Melnyk.

Now go and dig up comments from DJ on how he uses analytics.

You might find some discrepancies in opinion.

As form Mendes’s article, yes he clobbers PD with his FYOUS comments, the whole FYOUS thing was cringy, and died with the pandemic and the owner passing.

Now go and see if you can find a quote where PD sets the playoffs as an expectation during the rebuild…. Because that’s what he was saying in his interview.

Its a nice mix of two very different times and quotes being mashed together.

Lots of made up bullshit in here man, I would assume I called you a liar, unless you can provide that direct quote

Whatever dude, save your winks - you’re being ridiculously disingenuous. I’ve said my piece and backed it up, and I didn’t have to call you a liar to get there.
Hope the irony of you behaving like the people you routinely castigate here isn’t lost on you.

 

[Mingus Dew]

Mendes basically brought up YOUS timeline to counter PD saying he never set playoffs as the expectation for any year during the rebuild.

It sounds nice when you line the dates up, but when you shine a bit of sunlight on it you see that the FYOUS timeline died with the pandemic, and then the entire save money to spend eventually FYOUS plan died with Melnyk.

Getting back to my original point you quoted, which had little to do with FYOUS or this most recent Mendes article, was that management and coaching told us each year that they were developing the kids, and that guys were being brought in based on character and leadership to mentor and insulate the kids. The more we progressed through the rebuild, the more open they have been with the process.

Some folks seemed to just ignore that and prepare for the season as though we were going for it year after year and failing, during the rebuild, where the goal is to get high draft picks for a bunch of years. I have argued that it’s fine not to like the plan, but to pretend it doesn’t exist is a whole other thing.

Anyways, I don’t really care about fear mongering about what you think PD ‘really is’, this same select fan behaviour will happen with the next guys, and the next guys, and the next guys, as usual.

I like the team I’m seeing and am excited to see what they’ll become. To me that’s the only personal metric that matters.

The FYOUS was Melnyk nonsense that came out in like February of that year.

Dorion laid out his bubble team --> playoff team --> SC contender timeline at the end of the 2019 season.

And he could have just said "you know we did have those expectations back in 2019 but then COVID happened and progress stalled and perhaps we were all being too optimistic about the rebuild".

Instead he denied ever predicting playoffs in the past and claimed that no one at any time expected the team to make the playoffs over the last 6 seasons which is why he still has a job despite the fact that any other GM would have been shitcanned by now.

And the cherry on top is that he can't even say the word "playoffs" about the team's goals next year. So that way if we miss again he can say "well hold your horses no one expected this team to make the playoffs and that's why I deserve an 8th year. And during that 8th year I really expect this team to take it to the next tier!"

It's gobbledygook. He's done here. We are just boned because the sale is taking too long and the new owners aren't going to have time to install someone competent.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

CLAUDE GIROUX​

JAKOB CHYCHRUN View attachment 690942​

Well chychrun hasn’t proved anything yet.

 

[Golden_Jet]

But if you hit 3 home runs and the teams around you are hitting 5 home runs, you’re not hitting enough home runs to win.

Got some singles couldn’t drive the runs in.

 

[bicboi64]

What possible answer other than “we expect to make the playoffs” will be acceptable in September?!

I mean FFS in the same breath he said “I expect us to take it to the next level”… what level is that? Somewhere between 87 points and not the playoffs? It’s just silly….no matter what happens between now and September if the stated goal is anything other than we expect to make the playoffs then just fire he and DJ right now.
(and I’ve advocated for keeping them both).

Maybe he says the goal is to play even more meaningful games and finish 9-10th in the conference. Would be an improvement from this past season so hey, I guess its progress.

 

[GCK]

Average Drafting.. Big Hits in 2020 ; Mixed in 2017, 2018, 2019; Poor 2021; 2022?

looking at 2020 alone top marks

How is 2021 poor ? I’d say it’s far too early to assess. As for 2019 it’s trending towards very good.

 

[Senovision]

DJ Smith has done a great job with this team. I can see us hoisting the Stanley Cup under DJs leadership. When we first got him the first year I was not excited. But every year he has improved. He is a great motivator and leader. Jason York and Bobby Ryan agree too.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

The 2020 draft was an A+, but Mann has to be docked some points for what he's done since.

Since?! Barely anything has happened since. ‘21 We’re getting an nhl in ostapchuk and I still believe in Boucher to a degree. And who knows where our later picks will fall we wouldn’t know that yet anyway. If we get two good bottom six forwards from a draft guess what…it’s a good draft.

22 showing encouraging signs from our first two selections as well as Jodi an Donovan.

 

[GCK]

But if you hit 3 home runs and the teams around you are hitting 5 home runs, you’re not hitting enough home runs to win.

Who are the teams around us hitting 5 home runs ?

 

[branch]

I guarantee you the new owners were watching Dorion fumble through that year end interview like a bonobo trying to bang a football and decided that was it for him.

Also have we talked about Gustavsson in this thread yet?

Summer! Of! Pierre!

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

How is 2021 poor ? I’d say it’s far too early to assess. As for 2019 it’s trending towards very good.

2021 Ostapchuk is our best pick. Not much else to like about it. I think 10OA was a miss for that spot
2019 is mixed for me due to the 1st round pick which I weigh heavier. probably deserves a good vs mixed; 2017 is similar although fewer picks.

 

[Micklebot]

How is 2021 poor ? I’d say it’s far too early to assess. As for 2019 it’s trending towards very good.

I feel the tone of a draft is set by the first Rd selection, and you don't get past that until 3-5 years down the road.

2019 looks fantastic after Lassi, he still has time to be a solid pick but that's what people focus on, not the fact that every pick has gotten NHL games or that Sogaard could still pan out as a starter, or that Pinto is a top notch prospect, ect

Similarly, Boucher sets the tone for 2021, it's far too early to judge everyone else, heck it's too early for him, but since he has had some well documented struggles it's what people judge the whole draft on.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Not sure how you read the Mendes article as anything other than a damning account of Dorion’s performance as GM. Just constant fence sitting and hedging and then disowning comments he made 4 years ago lol.

Receipts are receipts. I expect him to be GM next year unfortunately.

I doubt we dump Dorion and DJ at the same time with a new owner: if I have to pick one to go ASAP, I'd change the coach.

We can change the GM the following summer. Not sure new owners would totally clean house as soon as they get there, seems unwise.

 

[Senator Stanley]

Since?! Barely anything has happened since. ‘21 We’re getting an nhl in ostapchuk and I still believe in Boucher to a degree. And who knows where our later picks will fall we wouldn’t know that yet anyway. If we get two good bottom six forwards from a draft guess what…it’s a good draft.

22 showing encouraging signs from our first two selections as well as Jodi an Donovan.

We can only judge on the information we have, but 2021 is looking pretty rough. Ostapchuk was a solid pick as a high 2nd rounder, but Boucher is trending about as poorly as a top 10 pick can trend and Ben Roger might not get an ELC.

Surely that's less than an A+?

 

[Loach]

I doubt we dump Dorion and DJ at the same time with a new owner: if I have to pick one to go ASAP, I'd change the coach.

We can change the GM the following summer. Not sure new owners would totally clean house as soon as they get there, seems unwise.

Make Bowness interim gm, keep DJ and get him different assistants. Let whoever they have as president of hockey opps do thier thing. That's kind of a bit of both worlds.

 

[JackieDaytona]

Ian Mendes should be the new gm. Claire Hanna POHO.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Ian Mendes should be the new gm. Claire Hanna POHO.

No

Claire should be President of My Heart Operations

 

[bicboi64]

We can only judge on the information we have, but 2021 is looking pretty rough. Ostapchuk was a solid pick as a high 2nd rounder, but Boucher is trending about as poorly as a top 10 pick can trend and Ben Roger might not get an ELC.

Surely that's less than an A+?

That's a B- or B for me at best. Granted, there is loads of time left for us to evaluate 2021, but so far its definitely looking dry.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

I can’t wait to read this thread again in 6 months.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

We can only judge on the information we have, but 2021 is looking pretty rough. Ostapchuk was a solid pick as a high 2nd rounder, but Boucher is trending about as poorly as a top 10 pick can trend and Ben Roger might not get an ELC.

Surely that's less than an A+?

Okay so in 20 and 21 we are getting stutzle Sanderson Grieg kleven and ostapchuk. Sure fire nhlers I believe. With jarventie Boucher sokolov as possibly but likely nhlers. That’s 8. In two drafts. If you wanted more than that. Your expectations are likely just a little too high. Some drafts are good some not as good but across two drafts the scouts filled the top and bottom of your lineup.

Like you can always have More prospects and less misses. But it’s just not reality.

 

[bicboi64]

Okay so in 20 and 21 we are getting stutzle Sanderson Grieg kleven and ostapchuk. Sure fire nhlers I believe. With jarventie Boucher sokolov as possibly but likely nhlers. That’s 8. In two drafts. If you wanted more than that. Your expectations are likely just a little too high. Some drafts are good some not as good but across two drafts the scouts filled the top and bottom of your lineup.

Like you can always have More prospects and less misses. But it’s just not reality.

I think its easier to judge any GM's first round picks (especially if they're top 10) over their later round ones. Sokolov and Jarventie will play more next year and give us a better measure of if they were good picks. Too early to tell though. Having Stu and Sanderson graduate so early will make anyone we select after 2020 seem underwhelming

 

[DrEasy]

It’s almost as if Dorion is paid to make these decisions while the first 5 pages are fans whose jobs are not on the line for these decisions.

Seemed like a good idea at the time does strike me as a rigorous metric for evaluation lol

He's moved from "Terrible idea clearly even at the time" to "Seemed like a good idea at the time". Progress!