General UFC/MMA/Boxing discussion VI

[Deebs]

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

As was expected, the B sample is very rarely different for the A sample. All that's left now is to determine what happens to the belt is the fight if ruled a no-contest and how long Jones will be out of action. I've heard as much as a 3 years ban, which would probably put en end to the whole potential Brock Lesnar thing.

 

[Deebs]

As was expected, the B sample is very rarely different for the A sample. All that's left now is to determine what happens to the belt is the fight if ruled a no-contest and how long Jones will be out of action. I've heard as much as a 3 years ban, which would probably put en end to the whole potential Brock Lesnar thing.

DC should get the belt back and Jones should get a lifetime ban, but he'll get the 4 years as per the UFC's rules.

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

DC should get the belt back and Jones should get a lifetime ban, but he'll get the 4 years as per the UFC's rules.

The USDA could recommend the highest penalty possible but I really expect he'll get less than that in the end. We'll see, there's not a lot of precedent on that. In any case it scraps whatever plans the UFC had going forward. They'll have to do everything they can to keep Conor and GSP happy.

 

[Kriss E]

Banning one of the best fighters ever because of PEDs...
Meanwhile so many other mediocre fighters who use them still get to fight..yay!

What a farce this is.

 

[L4br3cqu3]

Banning one of the best fighters ever because of PEDs...
Meanwhile so many other mediocre fighters who use them still get to fight..yay!

What a farce this is.

I once wondered if they should simply allow them altogether.

But then, if I'm not mistaken, it's not even legal to begin with, so that would be complicated. And if it's allowed, fighters will die young... but hey, if they're stupid enough to use them, go on.

See, even if there are 'so many other mediocre fighters who use them', know what ? They're still mediocre. But it's still illegal.

And, while he's a great fighter, do you think he'd still be great without those ? I don't think so, and he knows that too, that's why he uses them...

But getting caught twice ? His sorry ass needs to be banned for life, there are rules, don't follow them, get the **** out.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Banning one of the best fighters ever because of PEDs...
Meanwhile so many other mediocre fighters who use them still get to fight..yay!

What a farce this is.

If Jon Jones is that great, why would he need steroids?

I'm unsure if this is accurate but he didn't take a generic PED here, he took a drug that is illegal to have on you.

So I'm unsure what the debate is here. Chael Sonnen spoke about his PEDs and said they were things you can get from a doctor that enhanced performance. He knew it was on banned list but told himself "If Dr can give it, I don't care"

Jones took something no doctor could prescribe. So we can go in circles here but c'mon. Jones is deserving of suspension if he has no good story. Don't forget this is the same guy who does hit and runs with pregnant women. The sympathy level is low.

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

My stance on this has always been that the rules are rules, however stupid they might sometimes be. If you decide to try and circumvent them you have to be willing to deal with the consequences if you get caught. If guys manage to get away with it then good on them but the sword of Damocles is still hanging over you and you have to be conscious of that. It's an unfair system in a lot of ways but it's the best we've got.

That said, I'm not against PED's in themselves if the rules allow them. Things were a lot more lenient in Japan back in the day and I never saw it as a problem then . There used to be a TON of muscle freaks in MMA and very few of them were actually any good. The juice won't make a difference if you're not a decent fighter to begin with, but rules are rules like I said. Either allow everything or live with what happens when some of the guys that do them are caught.

 

[MD thaivuN]

as a cheater, Jones holds the responsibility to not get caught. Doesn't matter if others are doing it if they don't get caught.

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

http://www.ufc.com/news/UFC-Statement-on-Light-Heavyweight-Title

The fight is officially changed to a no-contest and the belt goes back to Cormier.

 

[M.C.G. 31]

Banning one of the best fighters ever because of PEDs...
Meanwhile so many other mediocre fighters who use them still get to fight..yay!

What a farce this is.

The question now is whether his entire career is a farce because of PEDs. Is he one of the greatest without juicing? He tainted his entire career.

 

[TRG]

http://www.ufc.com/news/UFC-Statement-on-Light-Heavyweight-Title

The fight is officially changed to a no-contest and the belt goes back to Cormier.

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

Honestly, I don't even think DC is all that happy right now. His whole mission of the past couple years was to get rid of the '' he's just keeping the belt warm for Jones'' stigma and now it starts all over again. He does get more money and leverage with the belt so there's that I guess.

 

[M.C.G. 31]

Honestly, I don't even think DC is all that happy right now. His whole mission of the past couple years was to get rid of the '' he's just keeping the belt warm for Jones'' stigma and now it starts all over again. He does get more money and leverage with the belt so there's that I guess.

True, but I think this time the narrative changes to "Jones never beat Cormier while clean, and Jones possibly thinks he couldn't have."

I mean... what other explanation is there for juicing not once, but twice vs. Cormier? Although I wouldn't be shocked if the majority of Jones career was fought while on the juice at this point. He gets no more benefit of the doubt.

 

[Kriss E]

If Jon Jones is that great, why would he need steroids?

I'm unsure if this is accurate but he didn't take a generic PED here, he took a drug that is illegal to have on you.

So I'm unsure what the debate is here. Chael Sonnen spoke about his PEDs and said they were things you can get from a doctor that enhanced performance. He knew it was on banned list but told himself "If Dr can give it, I don't care"

Jones took something no doctor could prescribe. So we can go in circles here but c'mon. Jones is deserving of suspension if he has no good story. Don't forget this is the same guy who does hit and runs with pregnant women. The sympathy level is low.

Jones was on trenbolone. He didn't get that on the black market. He is a high level athletes, there are doctors who will prescribe this, or pharmacists that will sell it to you.
Heck, I know a pharmacy in Hong Kong that sell testosterrone, and I'm not some high level athlete that is followed by multiple people.

It is no different than the Olympians who test positive. They don't get their stuff from the dealer down the street.

I don't care about Jones really. I think PEDs and Roids should be legal as they have infested sports and aren't going anywhere.
Might as well just open the books and spend money regulating those instead of fighting an unwinnable war.

 

[Kriss E]

I once wondered if they should simply allow them altogether.

But then, if I'm not mistaken, it's not even legal to begin with, so that would be complicated. And if it's allowed, fighters will die young... but hey, if they're stupid enough to use them, go on.

See, even if there are 'so many other mediocre fighters who use them', know what ? They're still mediocre. But it's still illegal.

And, while he's a great fighter, do you think he'd still be great without those ? I don't think so, and he knows that too, that's why he uses them...

But getting caught twice ? His sorry ass needs to be banned for life, there are rules, don't follow them, get the **** out.

This is just how incredibly demonized steroids are. Most people know absolutely nothing about them, but somehow they think they are some of the worst drugs possible. Pretty ironic how the worst drugs ever are the ones given to patients who need to recover or heal from a very bad injury or sickness. For skin issues, like eczema, you can be given a steroid cream for a cure. And in performance, you take steroids to actually become a better athlete.

I mean, those are positive things, not negative. Yet, they are demonized like any other horrible drug.
Most people that I know who categorically push steroids aside can't name me any.

So again, why would a fighter die young if he takes PEDs??..Sure, if he abuses, he could die young. Go abuse alcohol, let's see how long you live..? That's legal and there are nothing positive about drinking booze.

If we spent money on improving and regulating steroids, maybe they would be much healthier today too. Instead of spending a completely insane amount of cash testing and policing athletes, use that money for research and create healthier versions.

I absolutely think he would still be a great fighter without PEDs. That is another part of the misconception out there. Those drugs don't make you into a great fighter. They help give you an extra little edge, but they don't make you. Barry Bonds was great before any PEDs. If I took some and continued playing baseball through midget, I wouldn't have become Barry Bonds.
It's the same for Jones.

 

[Kriss E]

The question now is whether his entire career is a farce because of PEDs. Is he one of the greatest without juicing? He tainted his entire career.

I see nothing as tainted personally. So many of them have tested positive, I am not going to act all naive and pretend like whoever hasn't been caught isn't using.
Sure, I have no proof, but when so many fighters have been caught, I'm just going to assume they are pretty much all on them at some point during the year.
Testing positive changes absolutely nothing to how I look at a person's performance.

 

[Deebs]

Jones is a cheater and a fraud. His entire career is meaningless

 

[LeHab]

This is just how incredibly demonized steroids are. Most people know absolutely nothing about them, but somehow they think they are some of the worst drugs possible. Pretty ironic how the worst drugs ever are the ones given to patients who need to recover or heal from a very bad injury or sickness. For skin issues, like eczema, you can be given a steroid cream for a cure. And in performance, you take steroids to actually become a better athlete.

I mean, those are positive things, not negative. Yet, they are demonized like any other horrible drug.
Most people that I know who categorically push steroids aside can't name me any.

So again, why would a fighter die young if he takes PEDs??..Sure, if he abuses, he could die young. Go abuse alcohol, let's see how long you live..? That's legal and there are nothing positive about drinking booze.

If we spent money on improving and regulating steroids, maybe they would be much healthier today too. Instead of spending a completely insane amount of cash testing and policing athletes, use that money for research and create healthier versions.

Corticosteroids (treat inflammation) are not the same as anabolic steroids (muscle growth). There are simply too many substances that can be used to enhance performance or agents to mask such substances for various sports. Also even if you develop approved PEDs some athletes will always try to get whatever they can approved or not to gain extra edge so you will always need testing.

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

Jones is a cheater and a fraud. His entire career is meaningless

I wouldn't go quite that far, he's still probably the most gifted fighter I've ever seen in action, pure skills wise.That said, he'll always have an asterisk next to his name now , for the rest of his life. It will always be '' he beat all those great fighters at a super young age BUT...'' . In the court of public opinion at least that will be his legacy. It's a real shame really, all this thing.

 

[M.C.G. 31]

I see nothing as tainted personally. So many of them have tested positive, I am not going to act all naive and pretend like whoever hasn't been caught isn't using.
Sure, I have no proof, but when so many fighters have been caught, I'm just going to assume they are pretty much all on them at some point during the year.
Testing positive changes absolutely nothing to how I look at a person's performance.

Pre-USADA, sure. But USADA is cleaning up, and in the USADA run, that's twice that Jones has been popped now, and if you believe Chael Sonnen, Jones has literally hid from USADA for 8 hours in the past, too. Along with his abnormally low test levels from the first fight with Cormier. He's too shady. His entire career is tainted to me.

 

[Kriss E]

Pre-USADA, sure. But USADA is cleaning up, and in the USADA run, that's twice that Jones has been popped now, and if you believe Chael Sonnen, Jones has literally hid from USADA for 8 hours in the past, too. Along with his abnormally low test levels from the first fight with Cormier. He's too shady. His entire career is tainted to me.

This idea that whatever he has accomplished and all his fights are not impressive anymore because he is on some PEDs just doesn't compute with me.
Especially when we know so many of the fighters use stuff themselves.

Changes nothing to me. Still one of the best fighters I've ever seen. Lance Armstrong is still the best cyclist ever. Bonds and McGuire are still two of the best hitters of all time. Marion Jones and Ben Johnson are absolute beasts.
If truth comes out in years that Usain Bolt was using, it won't change a damn thing. Guy is a phenom.

 

[Kriss E]

Corticosteroids (treat inflammation) are not the same as anabolic steroids (muscle growth). There are simply too many substances that can be used to enhance performance or agents to mask such substances for various sports. Also even if you develop approved PEDs some athletes will always try to get whatever they can approved or not to gain extra edge so you will always need testing.

I know they are not the same. It is still a form of steroids, and again, we can talk about steroids given to patient who are in serious conditions needing recovery.

This idea that athletes will just try more extreme PEDs is a total cop out.
So companies are going to go into creating some "super steroid"?? They are just going to keep increasing the potency and dosage until what..they become the Hulk?..Because the ones on the market are going to be too weak?
That's not how it works. Nobody is going to buy weed off the local dealer when you could buy some at the local 7/11, and nobody is going to outdo the companies who are funded to provide and sell the best drugs.

As I said, I think that's a cop out and just a lazy excuse.
What they are doing right now is not working. They will never crack down on PED usage. Never.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Jones was on trenbolone. He didn't get that on the black market. He is a high level athletes, there are doctors who will prescribe this, or pharmacists that will sell it to you.
Heck, I know a pharmacy in Hong Kong that sell testosterrone, and I'm not some high level athlete that is followed by multiple people.

It is no different than the Olympians who test positive. They don't get their stuff from the dealer down the street.

I don't care about Jones really. I think PEDs and Roids should be legal as they have infested sports and aren't going anywhere.
Might as well just open the books and spend money regulating those instead of fighting an unwinnable war.

Some bodybuilders and athletes use trenbolone for its muscle-building and otherwise performance-enhancing effects. Such use is illegal in the United States and many other countries. The DEA classifies trenbolone as a Schedule III controlled substance under the Controlled Substances Act. Trenbolone is classified as a Schedule 4 drug in Canada and a class C drug with no penalty for personal use or possession in the United Kingdom. Use or possession of steroids without a prescription is a crime in Australia. The infamous "duchess" cocktail administered to Russian athletes at the Sochi Winter Olympics consisted of oxandrolone, metenolone, and trenbolone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trenbolone#Regulation

 

[Fazkovsky]

anyone that takes steroids is a total idiot

so bad for the health long term