General UFC/MMA/Boxing discussion VI

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LeHab

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Aug 31, 2005
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I know they are not the same. It is still a form of steroids, and again, we can talk about steroids given to patient who are in serious conditions needing recovery.

This idea that athletes will just try more extreme PEDs is a total cop out.
So companies are going to go into creating some "super steroid"?? They are just going to keep increasing the potency and dosage until what..they become the Hulk?..Because the ones on the market are going to be too weak?
That's not how it works. Nobody is going to buy weed off the local dealer when you could buy some at the local 7/11, and nobody is going to outdo the companies who are funded to provide and sell the best drugs.

As I said, I think that's a cop out and just a lazy excuse.
What they are doing right now is not working. They will never crack down on PED usage. Never.

I'm not sure you understand the complexity of what you are asking for. It is not about being lazy. PEDs are a range of substances that can enhance endurance, strength, focus, recovery....

Some carry potential for serious side effects which simply can't be mitigated. Once you start the official race to create best PEDs, then it becomes about how much $$$ you can spend and not everyone will have access. At the elite level even a very slight advantage can make the difference between winning or losing. It is not about making average joes into supermen.

Recent documentary on Netflix called Icarus which reveals the story behind Russian Federation Athletes getting banned for doping is a great watch.

We know today's system is far from perfect but I can ensure you what you are proposing is not realistic or better.
 

Kriss E

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May 3, 2007
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Jeddah
I'm not sure you understand the complexity of what you are asking for. It is not about being lazy. PEDs are a range of substances that can enhance endurance, strength, focus, recovery....

Some carry potential for serious side effects which simply can't be mitigated. Once you start the official race to create best PEDs, then it becomes about how much $$$ you can spend and not everyone will have access. At the elite level even a very slight advantage can make the difference between winning or losing. It is not about making average joes into supermen.

Recent documentary on Netflix called Icarus which reveals the story behind Russian Federation Athletes getting banned for doping is a great watch.

We know today's system is far from perfect but I can ensure you what you are proposing is not realistic or better.

I am very well aware of seriousness of PEDs and what they do. This isn't a new belief from me. I work in the sport of strength and conditionoing having been a coach for close to 8 years now. I have had discussions many times over the years about this. So yes, I am informed.
PEDs are not any more dangerous than other narcotics developed and available. If patient misuse Oxycodone, it leads to addiction, possible overdose and death.
And yet it is often prescribed to treat pain.

This idea that these drugs are bad and so, shouldn't be legal is silly. So many of them are bad and yet are perfectly legal. Politics is why these drugs became illegal, and they just stuck by that over the years. Nobody truly cares about the health of athletes.

You are missing the picture. PEDs are extremely present in the world of performance. Extremely. This has nothing to do with who can afford them as people already are. What we do know is drug testing is a failure. Most people get away with them. You can actually go through an entire career, be known as the greatest ever, retire, be the most tested athlete in the world and clear all your test, while using PEDs. So there is no debate about drug testing being a massive failure.

If you legalize them, you make them more accessible, therefore cheaper, and considering they will be regulated, they will become safer as more research will go into development.
You said people will just want to go for more strong drugs if you did that, which is just a cop out argument. Why would any company waste money developing harder illegal drugs and then have to find a way to illegally sell them when they can spend their finances on developing the best legal one and have no issues selling???
Your neighbourhood crackhouse isn't going to be coming up with better steroids than your government backed massive companies.

I have seen Icarus. If anything you should be on my side. Remember when asked how many athletes in the Olympics use PEDs? What was the answer again? Oh ya, ''All of them''.
Just make them legal and regulate them. This is so stupid at this point.

Nothing you said counters what I said.
 

Pompeius Magnus

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May 18, 2014
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I'm betting it all on Canelo baby, a ginger's not gonna fail me two fights in a row

I'd like to do the same cause Canelo is super fun to watch but Golovkin's size and power advantage could be a major factor as the fight goes longer. I'm going GGG with the close decision. This should be a treat whichever way it goes, a real boxing fan's dream fight.
 

L4br3cqu3

Matter of principle.
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This could be one of the best fights in recent memory.

I bet on GGG simply because I always liked his style, he dismantles people, literally... but Canelo, damn that punching power and that heart, and very good intelligence in the ring...

Still, GGG, but a close decision.
 

Habs_Apostle

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Feb 22, 2004
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Lomachenko versus El Chacal ? Good god, that's going to be sick ! Two of the top smaller boxers out there, both super talented.

Holy crap, just saw this. Rigo moving up considerably in weight. Incredible amount of skill between these two, though. Intriguing for sure!
 

LeHab

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Aug 31, 2005
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I am very well aware of seriousness of PEDs and what they do. This isn't a new belief from me. I work in the sport of strength and conditionoing having been a coach for close to 8 years now. I have had discussions many times over the years about this. So yes, I am informed.
PEDs are not any more dangerous than other narcotics developed and available. If patient misuse Oxycodone, it leads to addiction, possible overdose and death.
And yet it is often prescribed to treat pain.

This idea that these drugs are bad and so, shouldn't be legal is silly. So many of them are bad and yet are perfectly legal. Politics is why these drugs became illegal, and they just stuck by that over the years. Nobody truly cares about the health of athletes.

You are missing the picture. PEDs are extremely present in the world of performance. Extremely. This has nothing to do with who can afford them as people already are. What we do know is drug testing is a failure. Most people get away with them. You can actually go through an entire career, be known as the greatest ever, retire, be the most tested athlete in the world and clear all your test, while using PEDs. So there is no debate about drug testing being a massive failure.

If you legalize them, you make them more accessible, therefore cheaper, and considering they will be regulated, they will become safer as more research will go into development.
You said people will just want to go for more strong drugs if you did that, which is just a cop out argument. Why would any company waste money developing harder illegal drugs and then have to find a way to illegally sell them when they can spend their finances on developing the best legal one and have no issues selling???
Your neighbourhood crackhouse isn't going to be coming up with better steroids than your government backed massive companies.

I have seen Icarus. If anything you should be on my side. Remember when asked how many athletes in the Olympics use PEDs? What was the answer again? Oh ya, ''All of them''.
Just make them legal and regulate them. This is so stupid at this point.

Nothing you said counters what I said.

You wanted to eliminate testing yet you want to regulate the developmenet of PEDs. I can ensure you there is always going to be stuff effective as PED but carrying serious health risks. You have then athletes taking more than the next guy to have an edge. Are you ok with Goldman's dilemma?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldman's_dilemma
 

LeHab

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Aug 31, 2005
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This could be one of the best fights in recent memory.

I bet on GGG simply because I always liked his style, he dismantles people, literally... but Canelo, damn that punching power and that heart, and very good intelligence in the ring...

Still, GGG, but a close decision.

Will be hard to top Joshua vs Klitschko but should be an excellent fight nevertheless. I hope PPV numbers will be good as both fighters deserve a nice paycheck.
 

Kriss E

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May 3, 2007
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Jeddah
You wanted to eliminate testing yet you want to regulate the developmenet of PEDs. I can ensure you there is always going to be stuff effective as PED but carrying serious health risks. You have then athletes taking more than the next guy to have an edge. Are you ok with Goldman's dilemma?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldman's_dilemma

Yes, not sure where is the contradiction there..? Care to explain?
If you regulate, you don't need to test them, not for PEDs at least. By regulate I mean control.

Again, you are not bringing any arguments to the table. Stop ensuring me anything, you have no guarantee, nor do I, that isn't an argument. As I asked you, who is going to develop these super steroids that are more dangerous exactly? Not to mention also spend finances on how to mask them.

Goldman's dilemma works in my favor..not sure how you think this helps your case...
In recent years, the percentage of athletes that would agree was much lower than when first brought up. At an elite level track and field event, only 1% said they would take it.
So, please tell me, which company is going to spend a ton of money and research to develop this super steroid that is also unhealthy just to sell it to the 1%?..

You also did not respond to how, in the movie you suggested people should watch, one of the biggest advocates for testing, says he thinks all athletes are using peds in the Olympics. So the alternative to regulating, which is banning the substances and testing, is a complete and utter failure.
 

LyricalLyricist

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Aug 21, 2007
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Okay, some countries legal, some not.

And we agree Jon Jones lives, trains and fights in USA where it is illegal right?

So...I mean pretty self explanatory.

Some PEDs are not banned I'm sure. Some PEDs aren't even on the list I'm sure. Some PEDs are legal but banned and then there's PEDs you're not even allowed to have as a civilian. That's where Jon Jones is.

Out of curiosity though, why are you in hong kong?
 

G0bias

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Oct 4, 2007
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Hell ****ing yes. Been waiting for this match-up. I'm putting it all on my boy Loma. Either way it'll make for an amazing fight.

What a year its been. Klitschko-Joshua, Canelo-Chavez, Ward-Kovalev, GGG-Canelo and now Rigondeaux-Loma. Can't wait.
 
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Teufelsdreck

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Sep 17, 2005
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Did any of you get involved in boxing? I did in my youth. I got cocky after winning fights against untutored contemporaries and I wanted to advance my technique. However, when I went to a gym in which professionals were training I realized that boxing is a sport in which the object is to injure one's opponent. All of you know what can happen to hockey players who get hit too often, so you can imagine what repeated blows to the head from professional boxers can do. This preview scared me off forever. I'm an old man and if I were attacked today the first thing I would do is try to disable the attacker with well-aimed kicks.
 

Kriss E

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May 3, 2007
55,334
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Jeddah
And we agree Jon Jones lives, trains and fights in USA where it is illegal right?

So...I mean pretty self explanatory.

Some PEDs are not banned I'm sure. Some PEDs aren't even on the list I'm sure. Some PEDs are legal but banned and then there's PEDs you're not even allowed to have as a civilian. That's where Jon Jones is.

Out of curiosity though, why are you in hong kong?

Wanted out of Montreal. World is too small for me just to experience one city to live in.
Got an opportunity to move to HK for work, so jumped on it.
Had never been to Asia before. Best decision of my life.
 

LyricalLyricist

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Aug 21, 2007
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Wanted out of Montreal. World is too small for me just to experience one city to live in.
Got an opportunity to move to HK for work, so jumped on it.
Had never been to Asia before. Best decision of my life.

I'd never be able to go that far. How long you there for or is it indefinitely?
 

LeHab

Registered User
Aug 31, 2005
15,990
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Yes, not sure where is the contradiction there..? Care to explain?
If you regulate, you don't need to test them, not for PEDs at least. By regulate I mean control.

Again, you are not bringing any arguments to the table. Stop ensuring me anything, you have no guarantee, nor do I, that isn't an argument. As I asked you, who is going to develop these super steroids that are more dangerous exactly? Not to mention also spend finances on how to mask them.

Goldman's dilemma works in my favor..not sure how you think this helps your case...
In recent years, the percentage of athletes that would agree was much lower than when first brought up. At an elite level track and field event, only 1% said they would take it.
So, please tell me, which company is going to spend a ton of money and research to develop this super steroid that is also unhealthy just to sell it to the 1%?..

You also did not respond to how, in the movie you suggested people should watch, one of the biggest advocates for testing, says he thinks all athletes are using peds in the Olympics. So the alternative to regulating, which is banning the substances and testing, is a complete and utter failure.

Say development of PEDs is regulated to ensure whatever is produced is relatively "safe". What happens when there is something better than the regulated stuff but would carry unacceptable health risks to be a legal PED in sports? Do you test for that or close your eyes and let athletes assume risks? Read stories of anabolic steroids usage by East German female swimmer and the health consequences it had. Good luck developing something that will have a better impact on performance while carrying less side effects.

When you actually do PED specific R&D and produce something with potential there is going to be a whole process to validate effectiveness and health risks. In pharma world this takes forever. You will likely need to test it on actual athletes and not general population unlike typical meds. That is already a very small sample you can work with. While it is in process of being approved, what happens when someone decides to use it in competition? Close your eyes or let them assume risks in which case there is no point in regulation to begin with. Sorry but producing the best PEDs without side effects in all cases is rather unrealistic.

Reference to Icarus & Goldman's dilemma is that some will always want to cheat and are willing to take great measures and take big risks to gain advantage. I never said current system is good if you read what I wrote. I'm simply choosing what I believe to be the lesser evil. If you are comfortable with athletes putting in their bodies whatever they want, that is your choice.
 

Kriss E

Registered User
May 3, 2007
55,334
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Jeddah
I'd never be able to go that far. How long you there for or is it indefinitely?

Original contract was for a year, but then another company approached me and offered a bigger position. Great opportunity for me. This contract is open ended but I renewed my work visa for 2 years.
 

JtotheC

Registered User
Apr 29, 2011
863
355
Montreal
Did any of you get involved in boxing? I did in my youth. I got cocky after winning fights against untutored contemporaries and I wanted to advance my technique. However, when I went to a gym in which professionals were training I realized that boxing is a sport in which the object is to injure one's opponent. All of you know what can happen to hockey players who get hit too often, so you can imagine what repeated blows to the head from professional boxers can do. This preview scared me off forever. I'm an old man and if I were attacked today the first thing I would do is try to disable the attacker with well-aimed kicks.

I have been doing boxing for 6 months, I train several times a week.

I understand your concerns. With people that have no experience, or defence, no problem! But I am on the fence with sparring other boxers at my gym. Not sure I would like repeated hits to my head even with a helmet...
 
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