OT: General OT MEGATHREAD (No Politics) Pt. 3 - Read OP before posting

[twabby]

Imagine seeing what happened this week and saying to yourself “I want to buy a self-driving car from Elon Musk.”

 

[AlexModvechkin8]

Twitter is imploding as we speak. You love to see it!

Yeah, going to disagree and say while that your schadenfreude in watching Elon crash and burn like one of his Teslas is certainly understandable, it's also a bit misguided. Twitter, for better or worse, is a huge source of information for millions of people. They have an enormous responsibility as it relates to ensuring the suppression of misinformation and removing dangerous rhetoric and the people who spew that rhetoric from the platform. As Twitter spirals, talented people who care about it's integrity leave. Advertisers leave. Elon is going to get desperate and desperate people do stupid things.

 

[usiel]

Imho, Twitter is the best of the 'social media'. Yeah it doesn't make money but is a true connection to human to humans. When at it is best I recall in the early days going through my twitter feed late at night, live so to speak, and there as in earthquake and seeing real time reactions from people impacted was amazing. Also getting real time info when it comes to sports is admittedly ridiculously awesome.

At the same time what is missing in a fudamental understanding ot the internets is don't believe anything on the interwebs and just be your true self.

 

[g00n]

Social media is a scourge that has accelerated the decline of society. It needs to be regulated like every other media source. The laws on the books haven't caught up with the technology.

If you allow posting comments you should be required to vet those sources and monitor the material. The government should have a branch of the FCC or DOJ or a joint office issuing warnings of criminal libel for intentionally fake posts (excepting parody and other protected speech), and addressing complaints. I think something like this was tried but it hasn't gotten much support or publicity.

Without getting too much into the details there's a serious problem with sourcing information, troll farms, bots, etc amplifying bad signals and it's not getting any better. 90% of the problems we have in this country with social conflict have been massively fueled by these agitators.

Twitter, FB, and any others that match their reach are all guilty of pretending to care about this and doing the bare minimum to keep the authorities from clamping down.

Musk being in charge of this shitshow is very dangerous. He's a silver spoon talent and tech aggregator who is shit at managing people, and plays the "just asking questions" Joe Rogan game with topics so he can promote his libertarian-right pro-corporate ideals.

He basically set $44B on fire just so he could stand up in front of the class and be the teacher. And now they're pelting him with spitballs.

 

[AlexModvechkin8]

Social media is a scourge that has accelerated the decline of society. It needs to be regulated like every other media source. The laws on the books haven't caught up with the technology.

If you allow posting comments you should be required to vet those sources and monitor the material. The government should have a branch of the FCC or DOJ or a joint office issuing warnings of criminal libel for intentionally fake posts (excepting parody and other protected speech), and addressing complaints. I think something like this was tried but it hasn't gotten much support or publicity.

Without getting too much into the details there's a serious problem with sourcing information, troll farms, bots, etc amplifying bad signals and it's not getting any better. 90% of the problems we have in this country with social conflict have been massively fueled by these agitators.

Twitter, FB, and any others that match their reach are all guilty of pretending to care about this and doing the bare minimum to keep the authorities from clamping down.

Musk being in charge of this shitshow is very dangerous. He's a silver spoon talent and tech aggregator who is shit at managing people, and plays the "just asking questions" Joe Rogan game with topics so he can promote his libertarian-right pro-corporate ideals.

He basically set $44B on fire just so he could stand up in front of the class and be the teacher. And now they're pelting him with spitballs.

Social media can do a lot of good but it (especially Twitter and Facebook) is a national security risk if left unchecked, especially in the hands of a charlatan like Musk who thinks he’s always the smartest guy in the room. It allows nefarious actors both domestically and internationally to proliferate propaganda that pose direct threats to our security. Without people who care about doing the right thing in charge those safeguards could get tossed out the window in the name of “free speech” and in order to hit financial and performance metrics. Not good.

Add in that the rates of depression, anxiety, suicide attempts, and other mental health issues have exploded exponentially, especially in teens, since the introduction of social media and add in the total drain on economic productivity due to social media and you have a tool that can either do a lot of good or literally kill people. The extremes are both real and extreme and having a buffoon like Musk in charge of it is disconcerting to say the least.

 

[twabby]

Social media can do a lot of good but it (especially Twitter and Facebook) is a national security risk if left unchecked, especially in the hands of a charlatan like Musk who thinks he’s always the smartest guy in the room. It allows nefarious actors both domestically and internationally to proliferate propaganda that pose direct threats to our security. Without people who care about doing the right thing in charge those safeguards could get tossed out the window in the name of “free speech” and in order to hit financial and performance metrics. Not good.

Add in that the rates of depression, anxiety, suicide attempts, and other mental health issues have exploded exponentially, especially in teens, since the introduction of social media and add in the total drain on economic productivity due to social media and you have a tool that can either do a lot of good or literally kill people. The extremes are both real and extreme and having a buffoon like Musk in charge of it is disconcerting to say the least.

But the bolded was already true even before Musk. He's certainly more outwardly hostile toward regulators than other tech bros, but do we really think Mark Zuckerberg and Jack Dorsey really give a shit about doing the right thing instead of amassing wealth and power? Their Congressional testimonies showed exactly who these people and who these companies are. At least now Twitter is losing credibility and people are talking about it as these issues are amplified. I think a lot of good can come from this, on top of all of the humor.

 

[kicksavedave]

Yeah, going to disagree and say while that your schadenfreude in watching Elon crash and burn like one of his Teslas is certainly understandable, it's also a bit misguided. Twitter, for better or worse, is a huge source of information for millions of people. They have an enormous responsibility as it relates to ensuring the suppression of misinformation and removing dangerous rhetoric and the people who spew that rhetoric from the platform. As Twitter spirals, talented people who care about it's integrity leave. Advertisers leave. Elon is going to get desperate and desperate people do stupid things.

THe bolded, while true, Twitter is also a huge source of disinformation, spreading false conspiracy theories for pure political gain, and an immense amount of bullying. Musk has 100% entirely demonstrated he really doesn't take the responsibility to keep disinformation to a minimum, he only cares about monetizing it in every way possible because he's terrified of losing his entire $44B. His $8 blue check roll out proves he doesn't care about quality, integrity, security, or anything else but squeezing whatever few dollars he can before it all goes bankrupt, and make no mistake, he is going to bankrupt this thing in record time.

For the record, my position is that if Twitter is going to exist it has a social responsibility to ensure truth and accuracy, particularly when it comes to politics that impact every single person on the planet, and if Musk won't take that seriously then Twitter should disappear and let it be replaced by a similar platform that does take its social contract seriously.

 

[kicksavedave]

THe funny part will be watching who blows their billions sooner? The new $2B lotto winner, or Musk and his $44B mistake?

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

It should be noted that Musk did not front all that $ for Twitter.

 

[kicksavedave]

It should be noted that Musk did not front all that $ for Twitter.

Right, he borrowed a lot of it and his investors must be thrilled right now /s. Plus he used a lot of Tesla stock as collateral, and its been crushing the Tesla stock, which I am an investor in.

I'm not sure I've ever seen a billionaire implode in such dramatic fashion as this. His ego got way way way out over his skills this time.

 

[AlexModvechkin8]

But the bolded was already true even before Musk. He's certainly more outwardly hostile toward regulators than other tech bros, but do we really think Mark Zuckerberg and Jack Dorsey really give a shit about doing the right thing instead of amassing wealth and power? Their Congressional testimonies showed exactly who these people and who these companies are. At least now Twitter is losing credibility and people are talking about it as these issues are amplified. I think a lot of good can come from this, on top of all of the humor.

They gave more of a shit that Musk, which was my point. A lot of good can come from this but so can a lot of bad. Look up what happened to AM Radio when it started to struggle and advertisers left and people stopped listening. The airwaves were purchased and then utilized by a bunch of people and groups I won’t describe as to not violate forum rules but essentially it led to a fringe minority suddenly gaining access to prime viewing/listening space for millions of people and the rest is history.

My concern is that happening again with Twitter. Twitter needs to be properly regulated and it needs to be run by people who understand the gravity of the platform or it needs to die completely — it can’t be allowed to function as a platform where anyone willing to pay gets access to a huge audience.

 

[crazy8888]

They gave more of a shit that Musk, which was my point. A lot of good can come from this but so can a lot of bad. Look up what happened to AM Radio when it started to struggle and advertisers left and people stopped listening. The airwaves were purchased and then utilized by a bunch of people and groups I won’t describe as to not violate forum rules but essentially it led to a fringe minority suddenly gaining access to prime viewing/listening space for millions of people and the rest is history.

My concern is that happening again with Twitter. Twitter needs to be properly regulated and it needs to be run by people who understand the gravity of the platform or it needs to die completely — it can’t be allowed to function as a platform where anyone willing to pay gets access to a huge audience.

Not disagreeing with you but it also cant function as a biased platform where its handlers clearly have agendas that they are pushing on people and blocking credible sources of information that they do not agree with. Unfortunately i notice the same thing happen on hfboards where certain political statements are allowed to remain and others that mods do not agree with get removed.

I never had Twitter or any other social media. Actually hfboards account is the only place online where i say anything. But now that Musk took over twitter im considering getting an account. Not because i blindly agree with Musk and support everything he stands for. But just because i hope/expect that its going to be less biased now towards one side. I wont say which because my post will get banned but i think anyone with half a brain can understand what im talking about.

 

[g00n]

Not disagreeing with you but it also cant function as a biased platform where its handlers clearly have agendas that they are pushing on people and blocking credible sources of information that they do not agree with. Unfortunately i notice the same thing happen on hfboards where certain political statements are allowed to remain and others that mods do not agree with get removed.

I never had Twitter or any other social media. Actually hfboards account is the only place online where i say anything. But now that Musk took over twitter im considering getting an account. Not because i blindly agree with Musk and support everything he stands for. But just because i hope/expect that its going to be less biased now towards one side. I wont say which because my post will get banned but i think anyone with half a brain can understand what im talking about.

What credible sources of information were being blocked on Twitter that Musk is opening up? One of his first acts was to promote some asinine conspiracy theory. He's Joe Rogen or Alex Jones with rocket ships.

He's selling fake credibility with his $8 check mark scheme.

And now we know why he wanted the bots purged before buying. He wasn't interested in cleaning up the content so much as figuring out how many potential paying customers there were.

 

[kicksavedave]

Not disagreeing with you but it also cant function as a biased platform where its handlers clearly have agendas that they are pushing on people and blocking credible sources of information that they do not agree with. Unfortunately i notice the same thing happen on hfboards where certain political statements are allowed to remain and others that mods do not agree with get removed.

I never had Twitter or any other social media. Actually hfboards account is the only place online where i say anything. But now that Musk took over twitter im considering getting an account. Not because i blindly agree with Musk and support everything he stands for. But just because i hope/expect that its going to be less biased now towards one side. I wont say which because my post will get banned but i think anyone with half a brain can understand what im talking about.

The idea that previously Twitter was blocking credible sources of information simply because they disagree with it is an entirely false trope, and easily disprovable.

For starters, absolutely enormous amounts of information that the Twitter handlers supposedly "disagree with" is available constantly, so the idea that they block things simply because they disagree with them, is false.

Second, in 99.999% cases where someone is blocked, suspended, or removed from the platform, it was because they clearly violated the published terms and conditions which are entirely apolitical. Hate speech is banned. Inciting violence is banned. Intentionally posting false information for the purpose of influencing an election is also banned. It is posts that clearly fall into categories like these, which get people blocked/banned, while massive amounts of political speech from both sides passes through unabated when it complies with the ToS.

I had a friend once send me a bunch of examples of purely partisan "bannings" as examples of Twitter being biased against his party. When I researched every single one of them, not a single one was credible. By that I man his examples were not credible. In most cases the Tweet was removed because it violated ToS. In one case, the screening algorithm temporarily suspended a user and Twitter quickly reinstated them and apologized for their mistake - This is something that happens occasionally with technology that is intended to augment human screening but isn't perfect, but is also clearly not politically biased in either direction. While the technology is not biased, there is a clear trend of one side posting false information (specifically about elections) that leads to their posts or users being blocked a lot more often. That doesn't mean the ToS or the Company itself is biased, it means that one party violates the ToS more often than the other.

The cries of "unfair treatment" or "they're biased" ring entirely hollow when examined under a microscope using the actual facts of the cases.

 

[hb13xchamps]

My biggest pet peeve with Twitter in general is how shitty their algorithms are. I go to Twitter primarily for sports information, not to see people rage posting about politics and other hot button issues. Yet, Twitter constantly jams that shit down my throat. It doesn’t matter how many times I press “disinterested” or “dismiss.” It’s always there. All the time. Either their algorithm is that bad, or they purposely do it to drive engagement because 75% of people in this world get triggered online about those topics.

 

[usiel]

Social media is a scourge that has accelerated the decline of society. It needs to be regulated like every other media source. The laws on the books haven't caught up with the technology.

If you allow posting comments you should be required to vet those sources and monitor the material. The government should have a branch of the FCC or DOJ or a joint office issuing warnings of criminal libel for intentionally fake posts (excepting parody and other protected speech), and addressing complaints. I think something like this was tried but it hasn't gotten much support or publicity.

Without getting too much into the details there's a serious problem with sourcing information, troll farms, bots, etc amplifying bad signals and it's not getting any better. 90% of the problems we have in this country with social conflict have been massively fueled by these agitators.

Twitter, FB, and any others that match their reach are all guilty of pretending to care about this and doing the bare minimum to keep the authorities from clamping down.

Musk being in charge of this shitshow is very dangerous. He's a silver spoon talent and tech aggregator who is shit at managing people, and plays the "just asking questions" Joe Rogan game with topics so he can promote his libertarian-right pro-corporate ideals.

He basically set $44B on fire just so he could stand up in front of the class and be the teacher. And now they're pelting him with spitballs.

I would agree at this point regulation is about where humans are at when it comes to social media. Hindsight 20/20 letting it be a free for all, as what the spirit of what the internets were in the beginning, The one thing that leaves me flabbergasted is a chunk of society that simply believes in factually untrooths. Basically people are LARPing in real life to fit something imaginary.

 

[g00n]

I would agree at this point regulation is about where humans are at when it comes to social media. Hindsight 20/20 letting it be a free for all, as what the spirit of what the internets were in the beginning, The one thing that leaves me flabbergasted is a chunk of society that simply believes in factually untrooths. Basically people are LARPing in real life to fit something imaginary.

The frontier has turned into the brutal Wild West. Expansion is over. The free land is gone. It's time for barbed wire fences and US Marshals.

 

[usiel]

The frontier has turned into the brutal Wild West. Expansion is over. The free land is gone. It's time for barbed wire fences and US Marshals.

Yep time for propaganda to end.

 

[crazy8888]

The idea that previously Twitter was blocking credible sources of information simply because they disagree with it is an entirely false trope, and easily disprovable.

For starters, absolutely enormous amounts of information that the Twitter handlers supposedly "disagree with" is available constantly, so the idea that they block things simply because they disagree with them, is false.

Second, in 99.999% cases where someone is blocked, suspended, or removed from the platform, it was because they clearly violated the published terms and conditions which are entirely apolitical. Hate speech is banned. Inciting violence is banned. Intentionally posting false information for the purpose of influencing an election is also banned. It is posts that clearly fall into categories like these, which get people blocked/banned, while massive amounts of political speech from both sides passes through unabated when it complies with the ToS.

I had a friend once send me a bunch of examples of purely partisan "bannings" as examples of Twitter being biased against his party. When I researched every single one of them, not a single one was credible. By that I man his examples were not credible. In most cases the Tweet was removed because it violated ToS. In one case, the screening algorithm temporarily suspended a user and Twitter quickly reinstated them and apologized for their mistake - This is something that happens occasionally with technology that is intended to augment human screening but isn't perfect, but is also clearly not politically biased in either direction. While the technology is not biased, there is a clear trend of one side posting false information (specifically about elections) that leads to their posts or users being blocked a lot more often. That doesn't mean the ToS or the Company itself is biased, it means that one party violates the ToS more often than the other.

The cries of "unfair treatment" or "they're biased" ring entirely hollow when examined under a microscope using the actual facts of the cases.

Some ahole that blocked a certain laptop story just resigned from twitter today. You dont remember Nypost getting blocked for days for posting story that was true? Didint jack dickhead publicly apologize saying post should have never been blocked? Not sure what stories your friend is telling you or what you are debunking The technology is as biased as the person who is setting the algorithms. But when you have people in charge with clear bias im not sure what else to say. There is a reason why execs and either getting fired or resigning now. And no its not because of so called “free speach” or threat to our democracy. I say Twitter is better off without those idiots. You dont agree thats cool but dont talk all credible or not credible. Everyone is entitles to their own opinions but not their own facts.

 

[kicksavedave]

Some ahole that blocked a certain laptop story just resigned from twitter today. You dont remember Nypost getting blocked for days for posting story that was true? Didint jack dickhead publicly apologize saying post should have never been blocked? Not sure what stories your friend is telling you or what you are debunking The technology is as biased as the person who is setting the algorithms. But when you have people in charge with clear bias im not sure what else to say. There is a reason why execs and either getting fired or resigning now. And no its not because of so called “free speach” or threat to our democracy. I say Twitter is better off without those idiots. You dont agree thats cool but dont talk all credible or not credible. Everyone is entitles to their own opinions but not their own facts.

Well Musk now owns the algorithm, so I'm sure we'll see him share it publicly to prove that the actual algorithm is as you claim, biased. I'd be really curious which lines of code have the bias you seem to believe exists. What would that even look like?

Humans can make mistakes, and humans can be biased. The CEO apologizing for the mistake of his employee seems to debunk the idea that the entire company is biased against one party however.

 

[g00n]

Some ahole that blocked a certain laptop story just resigned from twitter today. You dont remember Nypost getting blocked for days for posting story that was true? Didint jack dickhead publicly apologize saying post should have never been blocked? Not sure what stories your friend is telling you or what you are debunking The technology is as biased as the person who is setting the algorithms. But when you have people in charge with clear bias im not sure what else to say. There is a reason why execs and either getting fired or resigning now. And no its not because of so called “free speach” or threat to our democracy. I say Twitter is better off without those idiots. You dont agree thats cool but dont talk all credible or not credible. Everyone is entitles to their own opinions but not their own facts.

The NY Post article violated the Twitter TOS by publishing personal, hacked information. Twitter was 100% correct in banning it. They only reversed their position because the story was proliferating so much already it was no longer private information. It has nothing to do with partisanship or "being true".

If anything this anecdote highlights the need for MORE regulation of content, because personal, private, hacked information spread so quickly it was impossible to contain.

And if you believe that laptop has anything more than embarrassing personal bullshit on it and is some kind of political smoking gun I have a totally complete and fully operation wall on the southern border to sell you. Cheap.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Well Musk now owns the algorithm, so I'm sure we'll see him share it publicly to prove that the actual algorithm is as you claim, biased. I'd be really curious which lines of code have the bias you seem to believe exists. What would that even look like?

Humans can make mistakes, and humans can be biased. The CEO apologizing for the mistake of his employee seems to debunk the idea that the entire company is biased against one party however.

Hah! Believe it when I see it……

I‘m no developer, but I am technical, and it certainly seems like it could easily be manipulated, even inadvertently.

To stop algorithmic bias, we first have to define it | Brookings

Emily Bembeneck, Ziad Obermeyer, and Rebecca Nissan lay out how to define algorithmic bias in AI systems and the best possible interjections.

www.brookings.edu

 

[g00n]

The opposite has been found to be true

Claim of anti-conservative bias by social media firms is baseless, report finds

Twitter, Facebook and YouTube banned Trump for incitement but New York University study finds algorithms amplify rightwing voices

www.theguardian.com

Why the right wing has a massive advantage on Facebook

A company executive responds to claims of bias.

www.politico.com

Facebook reportedly skirted its own rules to protect conservatives from disciplinary measures

Conservatives often complain about perceived bias on social media

www.theverge.com

Opinion | Facebook doesn't censor conservatives. It plasters their views all over your feed.

Republicans used a Senate hearing to complain that social media doesn't do enough for them. The problem is conservatives don't want to play by any rules.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[kicksavedave]

Hah! Believe it when I see it……

I‘m no developer, but I am technical, and it certainly seems like it could easily be manipulated, even inadvertently.

To stop algorithmic bias, we first have to define it | Brookings

Emily Bembeneck, Ziad Obermeyer, and Rebecca Nissan lay out how to define algorithmic bias in AI systems and the best possible interjections.

www.brookings.edu

Again, what would that look like if an actual political bias was in fact built into the algorithm? Certain keywords focused on what? Racial statements, religious statements, reproductive rights, what exactly would a programmer slip into an algorithm, be approved company wide, that specifically targets the tweets of one party and not the other party? Can it be done? Sure. Is it actually part of the algorithm? Very very unlikely.

What is more likely is, the algorithm seeks out violations of the terms of service (which are public) and flags them for review by humans, who make thousands of decisions on if the algorithm got it right, or the Tweet is in fact compliant with the ToS (or at least they used to refer to humans but I think they're all gone now)

What is also more likely, and fairly easily provable, especially now that Musk owns the code, is that one party Tweets in violation of the ToS more than the other party, making them think they are being treated unfairly. As the article you posted says, you don't even need to see the code, you just need to see the inputs and the outputs to know what the algorithm is flagging. The obvious result is, if you submit a lot of ToS violations you're going to get a lot of flags. That's not bias on the algorithm, its bias on the part of the person Tweeting.

Again, as Goon so thoroughly points out one post above, there are a jillion conservative posts every day on FB and Twitter. If the algorithm was truly biased against conservative messaging that would not happen. THe algorithm is in fact biased against violations of the ToS, as it should be.

 

[crazy8888]

The NY Post article violated the Twitter TOS by publishing personal, hacked information. Twitter was 100% correct in banning it. They only reversed their position because the story was proliferating so much already it was no longer private information. It has nothing to do with partisanship or "being true".

If anything this anecdote highlights the need for MORE regulation of content, because personal, private, hacked information spread so quickly it was impossible to contain.

And if you believe that laptop has anything more than embarrassing personal bullshit on it and is some kind of political smoking gun I have a totally complete and fully operation wall on the southern border to sell you. Cheap.

Oh ok i got you. We must believe what you believe or otherwise we are lunatics who
are obsessed with walls. Cool maybe you should have worked for twitter. Keep your wall buddy