General COVID-19 Talk #4 MOD Warning

[ricardfromage]

Sorry I gave up after the first paragraph, not even sure why I started with you Lolol.

Then I won the internets!

I am not sure why either but it is good to see you so this is a win anyways. You shouldn't be here late on a Saturday night. I am old now and have a built in excuse but you guys should still be busy at night.

 

[redcard]

I merely state that to show you the mentality of the vast majority of the people in the state where I live myself included. If Cali wants to live act and die differently then I support their right to do so whole heartedly and would stand by them if the govt didn't allow them to do so. I have written about my states ultra low morbidity rates and our never having mask mandates in my area and now in our entire state. It is how we live. Instead of fear and what if's we go about our business as normal. Some people get vaccinated and some don't. If people die from their decision either way we mourn their death and after a time go about our lives. In other words we make our own decisions for the most part and most of us live in the outdoors more than not. I invite you and any of my fellow HF Kings fans (a few have taken me up on the offer over the past couple of years) to get in touch with me and come up for a visit. You will be shocked. I still have family and friends in Cali and they are all very shocked when they visit especially over the past couple of years.

Idaho has a population density of 21 people per square mile.

California has a population density of 254 people per square mile.

Los Angeles has a population density of 7,000 people per square mile.

Your area hasn't avoided mask mandates because of your commitment to freedom and lack of fear, its because there's hardly enough people around you to spread the contagious disease. We all love freedom down here too, which is why we're trying to get this virus to f*** off so we can move on with our lives, which requires action to be taken.

 

[ricardfromage]

Idaho has a population density of 21 people per square mile.

California has a population density of 254 people per square mile.

Los Angeles has a population density of 7,000 people per square mile.

Your area hasn't avoided mask mandates because of your commitment to freedom and lack of fear, its because there's hardly enough people around you to spread the contagious disease. We all love freedom down here too, which is why we're trying to get this virus to f*** off so we can move on with our lives, which requires action to be taken.

We don't have mask mandates because we don't trust or listen to the Gov any more than we have to and we also don't allow them to run our lives the way that Cali seems to do now. When Covid first started all the major franchise/box stores tried to impose mask mandates and our state politicians got a shit ton of pressure from the people so they ash canned the idea. Our Governor this week said that Mask Mandates are unconstitutional and banned them entirely for our state. He and the rest of our local health/politicians have said that they will not enforce vaccine mandates or vaccine passport legislation under any circumstance. Paper lions maybe but if you lived up here you would see that it is like Covid has never happened. Sure we are more spread out in many parts of the state but for population density Boise is over run and packed crowded. It is like Long Beach as I see it only more densely populated. We take no action and are largely unaffected by this "crisis". It isn't just us, there are other states and countries that have taken the same approach and are experiencing the same results.

That said if Cali feels the need to do all of the different lock downs mandates etc that it is doing then good for them/you and I hope everyone is safe or gets better as quickly as possible. Both of my brothers and one of my nieces have had Covid and they live in Santa Barbara and San Diego respectively. I know that Cali people love freedom, it is where I spent more than 40 years of my life and where I developed my love of freedom and country. I didn't realize how important those positions were to me until I left the state behind. Always a Kings fan but Cali is just too hard to deal with for me.

 

[Fishhead]

Your Governor just activated the national guard and available ICU beds statewide have been in the single digits for the last few days. Maybe you don't live in a populated area, but your state is getting hammered. He also said this was a last-ditch effort to avoid crisis SOC (where doctors decide who lives and who dies).

Like COVID never happened? Largely unaffected? It's strange you would frame it that way when the situation is obviously dire. A governor doesn't call in the guard and beg people to get vaccinated when it's business as usual. Maybe we just have different standards of what is an acceptable loss of life, but to me, even one person dying with a treatable condition because they couldn't get a hospital bed due to unvaccinated people overwhelming the system is too many.

Not enforcing a vaccine mandate is the stupidest thing anyone could do in that situation. They have worked for years on different diseases, but no one stuck their fingers in their ears and screamed "FREEDOM" until a bunch of idiots made a virus political.

 

[Lt Dan]

Your Governor just activated the national guard and available ICU beds statewide have been in the single digits for the last few days. Maybe you don't live in a populated area, but your state is getting hammered. He also said this was a last-ditch effort to avoid crisis SOC (where doctors decide who lives and who dies).

Like COVID never happened? Largely unaffected? It's strange you would frame it that way when the situation is obviously dire. A governor doesn't call in the guard and beg people to get vaccinated when it's business as usual. Maybe we just have different standards of what is an acceptable loss of life, but to me, even one person dying with a treatable condition because they couldn't get a hospital bed due to unvaccinated people overwhelming the system is too many.

Not enforcing a vaccine mandate is the stupidest thing anyone could do in that situation. They have worked for years on different diseases, but no one stuck their fingers in their ears and screamed "FREEDOM" until a bunch of idiots made a virus political.

I agree with all of your post until the last paragraph.

Let's not forget the Jenny McCarthy granola essential oils "Vaccines cause autism " crowd.
They helped bring back Measles, pertussis, etc. and they are every bit as complacent/guilty/ dumbass as everyone else who is anti-vaxx when comes to covid as well

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Boise is by far the biggest city in Idaho and has just over 200,000. Outside of Boise, no one is bigger than 100k, and most are 50k and down.

There are 25 towns bigger than that in CA and most of them are interconnected. LA has nearly 4 million. There are 75 towns > 100k in California.

Population density is obviously a big deal for disease transmission and you can get outside in Idaho in a way you can’t in Inner City LA. You see this year after year with the flu, as well, especially in international travel hubs.

It’s useful to think of each state as different countries in this regard rather than an affiliation of endless cooperative lands. What fits one won’t fit others especially at this juncture in time, but we still have to take care of each other.

 

[LAKings88]

Anti-Vax has become big business. Influencers actually make money spewing it.

 

[jfont]

I agree with all of your post until the last paragraph.

Let's not forget the Jenny McCarthy granola essential oils "Vaccines cause autism " crowd.
They helped bring back Measles, pertussis, etc. and they are every bit as complacent/guilty/ dumbass as everyone else who is anti-vaxx when comes to covid as well

I take it this is what you refer to as MSM.

Let me tell you, no one listens to Jenny McCarthy since her mtv days

 

[Lt Dan]

I take it this is what you refer to as MSM.

Let me tell you, no one listens to Jenny McCarthy since her mtv days

That is a load of shit because Jenny McCarthy hasn't been on MTV since the early 90s and she had plenty of anti-vaxx rallys in the last two decades

How former 'The View' host Jenny McCarthy became the face of the anti-vaxx movement

Jenny McCarthy: anti-vaxxer, public menace

No, Jenny McCarthy, You Can't Duck Your Anti-Vaccine Nonsense Now




Regardless, that element of the population exists and that it hasn't done its share of damage prior to this pandemic and during this pandemic

 

[DoktorJeep]

Speaking of MTV in the 90s, I highly recommend checking out the Woodstock 99 documentary on Netflix. You get to remember Carson Daily at the height of TRL and some vintage Kurt Loder makes an appearance here and there. Plus, Cheryl Crow vs Korn is a preview of the America to come over the next decades.

Happy Labor Day Kings fans!

 

[Papa Mocha 15]

I appreciate the comments about Boise. It is beautiful up there and I was this close to moving but they're in the midst of another problem, which is they pay nurses next to nothing and it's biting them in the ass because they are severely understaffed and don't have capacity to manage this. Average salary is $56k a year. That's super low compared to other states. I made close to $90k without overtime working in OC when my kid was born. Not to say I'm all about the money but no way am I putting my ass out there on a covid unit for that kind of money at half of what I was making in SoCAL a few years back. There are lots of things to do out there for $28 bucks an hour and the level of conspiracy, noncompliance with vaccines etc would give anyone pause because of the dangerous environment. To compensate, the hospitals are putting out huge pay bumps to close the staffing gap and now it's the highest in the nation since the need is so high to the tune of $4600 to $8000 per week which is almost half the annual salary in one month of a local employee on the top end so it's gonna really piss off the people who live and work there because scabs are going to come in and get paid huge over local workers who are going to make crap and put their ass out there in the line of fire.

On top of that, they have little capacity so they'll be shoving patients out to other states if they get overwhelmed which is likely Washington first since they have more room. For example, their largest kids ICU is only 12 beds in Boise.

Again, no disrespect to Boise but they are not set up for a surge.

My own personal rant:
People hate the gov until they need them and then blames them when they didn't show up right away after not listening in the first place. It's a double edged sword. Funny thing is that Washington himself mandated a small pox vaccine for the Continental Army and he is sort of a Founding Father.

Anywho,


"Travel nursing agencies are trying to recruit to staff Idaho hospitals, offering premium pay rates. One agency is offering $4,600 to $8,000 per week. Some agencies pay for travel, housing and other essentials on top of the wages.
For one agency’s job openings in cardiovascular ICUs, Idaho’s pay rate was the highest offered in the U.S.
St. Luke’s Health System had 319 nursing job openings posted as of Tuesday, with signing bonuses of up to $7,500."

Idaho asks FEMA and other states for help, in last-ditch effort to staff hospitals - Idaho Capital Sun

 

[Rusty Batch]

Lots of really great data out there showing that natural immunity is drastically better at preventing transmission and severity then the vaccine. CDC appears to be very wrong on that and will have to update their position on it if they haven't already (they were telling us the exact opposite). If we want to be science based then we can't continue to ignore data that doesn't fit the "everyone needs to get the vaccine" narrative.

 

[Matt13]

Jim Jefferies had a good take on Jenny McCarthy…..

“is the kid autistic or is just Jenny McCarthy’s kid” or something like that.

 

[Fishhead]

Lots of really great data out there showing that natural immunity is drastically better at preventing transmission and severity then the vaccine. CDC appears to be very wrong on that and will have to update their position on it if they haven't already (they were telling us the exact opposite). If we want to be science based then we can't continue to ignore data that doesn't fit the "everyone needs to get the vaccine" narrative.

Science doesn't subscribe to narratives, it's just science and that's it, and scientists never purposefully ignore data when submitting studies. Data is just a result, whether or not it matches what you hypothesized is secondary and the quality of your data is dependent on how rigorous your study is. Ignoring data will mean that your study will never make it through peer review and most certainly will not be published. It's absolutely acceptable in science to have major studies contradict each other, all that says is more research needs to be done.

Most of the data on COVID here shows the opposite, but it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if some study's findings are to the contrary, immune response in people is highly individualized. It's going to depend on what vaccine they had, genetic factors, and where the study is from. For example, a study done in the UK or Italy might show very different results than a study in the USA, but we would have to be wary of applying that here other than in the most general sense. We are all human, but gene mutations are highly regionalized. It's why certain populations are susceptible to certain conditions (Tay-Sachs, Sickle Cell, etc.) The Jewish populations of Eastern Europe are particularly unique, carrying all sorts of stuff that is uncommon everywhere else. I have a scientist friend who found out he was Ashkenazi and he had himself tested for all kinds of mutations. Dude totally freaked out, but we had a laugh when he found out it was a very distant relationship. Also, most importantly, at this point in time it's impossible to tell for sure which is better regardless of what studies are indicating. There simply isn't enough data out there to make a valid conclusion, so it's still best guess time. What needs to be avoided is fixating on that one study that shows great promise, when many other studies are showing the opposite.

Everything still needs to be taken with a grain of salt, we just need to adapt with whatever studies guide us towards. I remember when everyone was disinfecting like crazy, but once that turned out to be a non-factor no one does it anymore.

What I do see in all studies is a common theme, and that is if you've had COVID before you still benefit from a vaccination which reduces the odds of reinfection greatly. I would say 99% of the scientific and medical communities agree on that.

 

[Bandit]

Lots of really great data out there showing that natural immunity is drastically better at preventing transmission and severity then the vaccine. CDC appears to be very wrong on that and will have to update their position on it if they haven't already (they were telling us the exact opposite). If we want to be science based then we can't continue to ignore data that doesn't fit the "everyone needs to get the vaccine" narrative.

There’s @Fishhead ’s post, and then there’s this. Indeed there are two Americas.

 

[SufferingSelfCreated]

Lots of really great data out there showing that natural immunity is drastically better at preventing transmission and severity then the vaccine. CDC appears to be very wrong on that and will have to update their position on it if they haven't already (they were telling us the exact opposite). If we want to be science based then we can't continue to ignore data that doesn't fit the "everyone needs to get the vaccine" narrative.

And what could happen sooner? Everyone getting sick and becoming naturally immune, or just get the vaccine. Maybe Natural is better, but it's not the quickest and most logical answer. If we have an effective vaccine, why wait for natural immunity? Just my 2c.

 

[Rusty Batch]

Science doesn't subscribe to narratives, it's just science and that's it, and scientists never purposefully ignore data when submitting studies. Data is just a result, whether or not it matches what you hypothesized is secondary and the quality of your data is dependent on how rigorous your study is. Ignoring data will mean that your study will never make it through peer review and most certainly will not be published. It's absolutely acceptable in science to have major studies contradict each other, all that says is more research needs to be done.

Most of the data on COVID here shows the opposite, but it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if some study's findings are to the contrary, immune response in people is highly individualized. It's going to depend on what vaccine they had, genetic factors, and where the study is from. For example, a study done in the UK or Italy might show very different results than a study in the USA, but we would have to be wary of applying that here other than in the most general sense. We are all human, but gene mutations are highly regionalized. It's why certain populations are susceptible to certain conditions (Tay-Sachs, Sickle Cell, etc.) The Jewish populations of Eastern Europe are particularly unique, carrying all sorts of stuff that is uncommon everywhere else. I have a scientist friend who found out he was Ashkenazi and he had himself tested for all kinds of mutations. Dude totally freaked out, but we had a laugh when he found out it was a very distant relationship. Also, most importantly, at this point in time it's impossible to tell for sure which is better regardless of what studies are indicating. There simply isn't enough data out there to make a valid conclusion, so it's still best guess time. What needs to be avoided is fixating on that one study that shows great promise, when many other studies are showing the opposite.

Everything still needs to be taken with a grain of salt, we just need to adapt with whatever studies guide us towards. I remember when everyone was disinfecting like crazy, but once that turned out to be a non-factor no one does it anymore.

What I do see in all studies is a common theme, and that is if you've had COVID before you still benefit from a vaccination which reduces the odds of reinfection greatly. I would say 99% of the scientific and medical communities agree on that.

I'm not really sure what your point was. Natural immunity has always been incredibly effective this isnt a new thing it's common knowledge. Vaccines are great because you don't have to suffer through the sickness in order to get some degree of immunity.

But this isn't some new theory that people who have already contracted the virus and recovered from it have excellent immunity to it. This is what has always happened to humans, it should come as no surprise to anyone that natural immunity is extremely effective and we should be very accepting of data that shows this to be true. None of this is fringe science what is strange is to tell people who have already been sick and recovered from the virus that they must get a vaccine or be treated different then the rest of the population... Particularly when there is substantial data showing that the vaccine is less effective then natural immunity (again not at all surprising).

 

[Rusty Batch]

There’s @Fishhead ’s post, and then there’s this. Indeed there are two Americas.

Are you taking a shot at me because I am pointing to data that says natural immunity from covid is highly effective? Do you think that this is a false premise?

 

[Rusty Batch]

And what could happen sooner? Everyone getting sick and becoming naturally immune, or just get the vaccine. Maybe Natural is better, but it's not the quickest and most logical answer. If we have an effective vaccine, why wait for natural immunity? Just my 2c.

I wouldn't suggest the solution is to "wait for natural immunity". I think it's somewhat of a fool's errand. This virus spreads rapidly, and it's quite clear that nothing we have done has prevented it from spreading. People who have severe health issues and are at risk from covid should definitely get the vaccine as it provides them with antibodies that might save their lives.

Based on the newest data we have, the issue appears to be that the antibodies provided from the virus do not last much longer then about 4 to 8 months. Which is why these people need to continue to get booster shots.

I am not disputing any of that and I am not an "anti-vaxer" the only issue I have is that not everyone should be forced to get a vaccine. I do not see any reason why myself (who has gotten covid and recovered from it) and millions of other people like myself who now have DRASTICALLY better immunity from being infected, spreading, and suffering symptoms from covid should be forced into taking a vaccine for something I have already gotten sick from. Frankly it's illogical lol.

There is a point where this stuff becomes a bit silly and I'm not really sure why I am being forced to take a vaccine for a virus that I have already recovered from...

I have zero issues with other people choosing to get vaccinated and have strongly recommended my parents (and thankfully they have taken my advice) to get the vaccine.

My issue is simply that this has gotten to politicized and people have chosen sides with a almost religious fervor. If people want to believe that their vaccine provides greater protection then my natural immunity then fine, but don't force me to agree with you to the point of me actually losing my job and my access to basic freedoms. I feel like there is quite a bit of data and common sense on my side.

 

[SufferingSelfCreated]

I wouldn't suggest the solution is to "wait for natural immunity". I think it's somewhat of a fool's errand. This virus spreads rapidly, and it's quite clear that nothing we have done has prevented it from spreading. People who have severe health issues and are at risk from covid should definitely get the vaccine as it provides them with antibodies that might save their lives.

Based on the newest data we have, the issue appears to be that the antibodies provided from the virus do not last much longer then about 4 to 8 months. Which is why these people need to continue to get booster shots.

I am not disputing any of that and I am not an "anti-vaxer" the only issue I have is that not everyone should be forced to get a vaccine. I do not see any reason why myself (who has gotten covid and recovered from it) and millions of other people like myself who now have DRASTICALLY better immunity from being infected, spreading, and suffering symptoms from covid should be forced into taking a vaccine for something I have already gotten sick from. Frankly it's illogical lol.

There is a point where this stuff becomes a bit silly and I'm not really sure why I am being forced to take a vaccine for a virus that I have already recovered from...

I have zero issues with other people choosing to get vaccinated and have strongly recommended my parents (and thankfully they have taken my advice) to get the vaccine.

My issue is simply that this has gotten to politicized and people have chosen sides with a almost religious fervor. If people want to believe that their vaccine provides greater protection then my natural immunity then fine, but don't force me to agree with you to the point of me actually losing my job and my access to basic freedoms. I feel like there is quite a bit of data and common sense on my side.

You're not wrong. I agree with most of your thoughts. But I will ask you this, do you have proof that you were sick? Like a dr Diagnosis? I guess what I'm getting at is if you have a paper trail showing you recovered from the virus, you shouldn't be forced to get the vaccine. But if you don't, and they have a effective vaccine,I can see why they would want you to get it.

 

[Rusty Batch]

You're not wrong. I agree with most of your thoughts. But I will ask you this, do you have proof that you were sick? Like a dr Diagnosis? I guess what I'm getting at is if you have a paper trail showing you recovered from the virus, you shouldn't be forced to get the vaccine. But if you don't, and they have a effective vaccine,I can see why they would want you to get it.

My whole family got it and we have positive test results?

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

You're not wrong. I agree with most of your thoughts. But I will ask you this, do you have proof that you were sick? Like a dr Diagnosis? I guess what I'm getting at is if you have a paper trail showing you recovered from the virus, you shouldn't be forced to get the vaccine. But if you don't, and they have a effective vaccine,I can see why they would want you to get it.

My whole family got it and we have positive test results?

I kind of agree with this to some degree, I feel like having natural immunity should be good enough for 'proof' for entrance to events etc.

However...

I am not disputing any of that and I am not an "anti-vaxer" the only issue I have is that not everyone should be forced to get a vaccine. I do not see any reason why myself (who has gotten covid and recovered from it) and millions of other people like myself who now have DRASTICALLY better immunity from being infected, spreading, and suffering symptoms from covid should be forced into taking a vaccine for something I have already gotten sick from. Frankly it's illogical lol.
.

...fine, no one else is biting, I guess I will. I haven't seen ANY data that supports DRASTICALLY better immunity from infection than vaccination, please share or cease. I suspect it's not a credible/peer-reviewed source.

 

[Papa Mocha 15]

My whole family got it and we have positive test results?

Where are you getting your information from? Can you please post it? You have made a number of claims but I"m not seeing anything out there that really supports what you are saying in terms of evidence.

 

[Fishhead]

I'm not really sure what your point was. Natural immunity has always been incredibly effective this isnt a new thing it's common knowledge. Vaccines are great because you don't have to suffer through the sickness in order to get some degree of immunity.

But this isn't some new theory that people who have already contracted the virus and recovered from it have excellent immunity to it. This is what has always happened to humans, it should come as no surprise to anyone that natural immunity is extremely effective and we should be very accepting of data that shows this to be true. None of this is fringe science what is strange is to tell people who have already been sick and recovered from the virus that they must get a vaccine or be treated different then the rest of the population... Particularly when there is substantial data showing that the vaccine is less effective then natural immunity (again not at all surprising).

One point was, studies aren't perfect so you go with what is the most prevalent. I haven't seen any studies in the USA that show that natural immunity is better than vaccines, so if you could point me to one it would be great.

The biggest point was, if one believes the research that natural immunity is better, then they should also believe the research that vaccines have immense benefits for those who have already had COVID and can prevent it from spreading further.

 

[KINGS17]

We should all chip in and get Papa Mocha a rub-n-tug when this wave subsides

Ok, you're not that expensive, right?