General COVID-19 Talk #4 MOD Warning

[redcard]

Well to be fair, if you looking at the costs involved to compare, you would need to factor in the cost of the other side -- Govt stimulus money, lost businesses, lost jobs, less investment, lost tax revenues, additional government business/individual aid, bad/insufficient/lost kid & young adult education, etc. It's almost mind numbing thinking of the ripple effects long-term (each side quite honestly).

I'm not disagreeing with your point -- just that there's more to it than the initial death or health care. Heck, what will the current (or even future changes) environment have long-term on health care employment and people going into that field? Again, it hurts your brain just thinking of the potentials one way or another. That's what alcohol is for i guess lol.

But if you did let things go somewhat non-vaccination/mask wise, you would likely end up seeing (for better or worse) a MUCH better presence of CV treatment and testing. IMHO, there's been a bizarre and curiously egregious lack of effort put in this aspect of things. It's like all the eggs went to the Vaccine and ignored treatment/testing. There is no reason we should be at a point where the only good test is a horrible nose swab that takes a medical person to do and results 24-72 hours later. That makes no sense. The lack of a treatment is also a shame -- resulting in the crazy/wacky, unproven treatments that have been pushed over the course of the past 15 months.

I don't really see those as counter points. Prior to vaccine availability you have an argument about the detrimental economic/education/mental health effects that you mentioned of a lockdown/shutdown/distance learning etc. But the vaccine itself is an alternative to those measures, reducing the need for a lockdown, reducing those costs in addition to the health care costs that Fishhead mentioned. All of that just points to an increased importance in vaccination.

 

[Lt Dan]

Good case metrics, but the highest death number that I can remember in a while

Under 500 cases= Goooooooooooooooooooooood
Hosp down from 521 yesterday
ICU down from 143

 

[Bandit]

Maybe I listen to Rogan too much but I am curious of peoples opinions or knowledge of the following:

From the article, “One in 500 people in the U.S. has died from COVID. To try to trivialize it and say it’s nothing, it doesn’t matter, I think it’s just a gross mischaracterization of what we are all living through,”

Is it more accurate to say "One in 500 people in the US has died with Covid" as it may not be the full reason a person has passed?

If you listen to Rogan at all it's probably too much, yeah.

But sure, I mean just about everything you're doing with yourself is killing you to some capacity. Breathing the LA smog? Have you ever drank coke? Ate a BBQ double bacon cheeseburger? Those things are all killing you to some degree. Of course some people are much worse off than others but I think the question you have to ask is "would they have died if it weren't for covid?" Of course everybody dies, but when someone dies of clogged arteries they don't blame the cheeseburger they had in 1982. Not sure why people keep looking for reasons to tap dance with this about covid. Maybe it's denial, or wanting to make the reason anything but covid, I dunno, but it's weird.

 

[Lt Dan]

The death graph. Remeber that these are by date of death and not by date of when the death was reported

 

[KINGS17]

Well to be fair, if you looking at the costs involved to compare, you would need to factor in the cost of the other side -- Govt stimulus money, lost businesses, lost jobs, less investment, lost tax revenues, additional government business/individual aid, bad/insufficient/lost kid & young adult education, etc. It's almost mind numbing thinking of the ripple effects long-term (each side quite honestly).

I'm not disagreeing with your point -- just that there's more to it than the initial death or health care. Heck, what will the current (or even future changes) environment have long-term on health care employment and people going into that field? Again, it hurts your brain just thinking of the potentials one way or another. That's what alcohol is for i guess lol.

But if you did let things go somewhat non-vaccination/mask wise, you would likely end up seeing (for better or worse) a MUCH better presence of CV treatment and testing. IMHO, there's been a bizarre and curiously egregious lack of effort put in this aspect of things. It's like all the eggs went to the Vaccine and ignored treatment/testing. There is no reason we should be at a point where the only good test is a horrible nose swab that takes a medical person to do and results 24-72 hours later. That makes no sense. The lack of a treatment is also a shame -- resulting in the crazy/wacky, unproven treatments that have been pushed over the course of the past 15 months.

All money which we should be recovering from the CCP.

 

[Lt Dan]

I am curious of peoples opinions or knowledge of the following:

From the article, “One in 500 people in the U.S. has died from COVID. To try to trivialize it and say it’s nothing, it doesn’t matter, I think it’s just a gross mischaracterization of what we are all living through,”

Is it more accurate to say "One in 500 people in the US has died with Covid" as it may not be the full reason a person has passed?

no question

And that is a perfect example of the bullshit state of our media. The first statement was inaccurate and misrepresenting. The person who published that article shouldn't be allowed to media anymore.

( I also just watched Dr Death on Peacock and was shocked that he was allowed to continue as long as he was and I am in uber-responsibility mode)

 

[Schrute farms]

I don't really see those as counter points. Prior to vaccine availability you have an argument about the detrimental economic/education/mental health effects that you mentioned of a lockdown/shutdown/distance learning etc. But the vaccine itself is an alternative to those measures, reducing the need for a lockdown, reducing those costs in addition to the health care costs that Fishhead mentioned. All of that just points to an increased importance in vaccination.

Hmmm, maybe you live in a different area than I do -- one that has no business restrictions, business/economy negatively being impacted, distance learning, etc.

 

[Maynard]

If you listen to Rogan at all it's probably too much, yeah.

It’s been strange watching Rogan. I’ve enjoyed a couple of his stand up specials, but he’s gone from mushrooms and “it’s entirely possible that we’re an abandoned race of aliens” podcaster to being the king of the uninformed meat heads and a safe haven for COVID misinformation and general conspiracy nonsense.

 

[Matt13]

If you listen to Rogan at all it's probably too much, yeah.

But sure, I mean just about everything you're doing with yourself is killing you to some capacity. Breathing the LA smog? Have you ever drank coke? Ate a BBQ double bacon cheeseburger? Those things are all killing you to some degree. Of course some people are much worse off than others but I think the question you have to ask is "would they have died if it weren't for covid?" Of course everybody dies, but when someone dies of clogged arteries they don't blame the cheeseburger they had in 1982. Not sure why people keep looking for reasons to tap dance with this about covid. Maybe it's denial, or wanting to make the reason anything but covid, I dunno, but it's weird.

As a vaccinated individual who had Covid, I am not denying anything.

Maybe you didn't understand the question or maybe you have me confused with someone else. I asked a question for insight with someone with knowledge. Unfortunately it was based on a quote you posted but not necessarily at you, but here we are.

If you die in a motorcycle accident because a f***ing Peterbilt ran over your head, but you happened to test positive for Covid, is that death being lumped in with the 500 or not?

Per the CDC about 83 Americans die per hour from stroke. So if someone came in with a predisposition to have a stroke, or had a stroke with Covid due to oxygen issues, even though one may or may not had to do with the other it is important to know these facts. Did the stroke kill him, or did Covid or was it a combination and the flu would have done the same thing. Again this does make a difference for how many people died FROM Covid.

Having proper models for comparison is important for any argument. When comparing Flu to Covid, the flu numbers are always based on a year. Why are all the Covid numbers from inception until now? Maybe a better model for people to understand is Covid Deaths in any year per capita, or even Covid Deaths post vaccination compared to pre. Of course that does not take in to account things like advancements in how doctors treat now such as assisted breathing compared to ventilators.

no question

And that is a perfect example of the bullshit state of our media. The first statement was inaccurate and misrepresenting. The person who published that article shouldn't be allowed to media anymore.

( I also just watched Dr Death on Peacock and was shocked that he was allowed to continue as long as he was and I am in uber-responsibility mode)

Or maybe this is the issue as it was just a poorly written article.

 

[Matt13]

It’s been strange watching Rogan. I’ve enjoyed a couple of his stand up specials, but he’s gone from mushrooms and “it’s entirely possible that we’re an abandoned race of aliens” podcaster to being the king of the uninformed meat heads and a safe haven for COVID misinformation and general conspiracy nonsense.

I made my comment in jest but I haven't listened since he moved to Spotify. I used to enjoy certain guests but it was just to hard to dedicate 3 hours to it.

 

[Maynard]

I made my comment in jest but I haven't listened since he moved to Spotify. I used to enjoy certain guests but it was just to hard to dedicate 3 hours to it.

Yeah I hear you. I used to listen to him and Carolla. They kept it light and funny and then one day they started loving the smell of their own conspiracy farts and it just became too much for me.

 

[redcard]

Hmmm, maybe you live in a different area than I do -- one that has no business restrictions, business/economy negatively being impacted, distance learning, etc.

What I'm saying is those are lockdown/preventative measure costs, not vaccine costs. Vaccine adoption allows us to lift business restrictions, end distance learning, etc. therefore reducing those costs in the same way that they reduce health care costs.

So in your post when you said "if you looking at the costs involved to compare, you would need to factor in the cost of the other side" those costs aren't the other side, they're the same side, they're all being reduced by vaccinating the population.

 

[Papa Mocha 15]

As a vaccinated individual who had Covid, I am not denying anything.

Maybe you didn't understand the question or maybe you have me confused with someone else. I asked a question for insight with someone with knowledge. Unfortunately it was based on a quote you posted but not necessarily at you, but here we are.

If you die in a motorcycle accident because a f***ing Peterbilt ran over your head, but you happened to test positive for Covid, is that death being lumped in with the 500 or not?

Per the CDC about 83 Americans die per hour from stroke. So if someone came in with a predisposition to have a stroke, or had a stroke with Covid due to oxygen issues, even though one may or may not had to do with the other it is important to know these facts. Did the stroke kill him, or did Covid or was it a combination and the flu would have done the same thing. Again this does make a difference for how many people died FROM Covid.

Having proper models for comparison is important for any argument. When comparing Flu to Covid, the flu numbers are always based on a year. Why are all the Covid numbers from inception until now? Maybe a better model for people to understand is Covid Deaths in any year per capita, or even Covid Deaths post vaccination compared to pre. Of course that does not take in to account things like advancements in how doctors treat now such as assisted breathing compared to ventilators.




Or maybe this is the issue as it was just a poorly written article.

Hi there. No, not typically unless it is a contributing factor. They don't fill out that they died of COVID unless it was considered a contributing factor to the person's death.
The form has a cause of death and then secondary contributing factors like a list.

If they die of a brain herniation secondary to a stroke because of brain bleed, you would include both the brain herniation and say it was secondary to the stroke d/t hypertension.

If they developed a clot secondary to COVID because people's blood turns to sludge then yes would include it.

If they died of sepsis secondary to Ventilator Aquired Pneumonia secondary to a Covid infection, then yes it would all also be included.

It's really up to the MDs discretion at their cause of death which is in their right to determine since they make the medical diagnosis.

As it relates to deaths by month, quarter or season, it is being tabulated but not broken down in such a way at this time because in my opinion it provides a comparison btw the two when they really aren't comparable. Deaths are significantly higher with COVID and it is not seasonal and is airborne vs Flu which is droplet transmission and shorter time frame.

On average, the nasty flu season in 2017 claimed 61,000 lives which was horrible and other years it is low as 11,000-12,000 so they average it out to be 37,000. COVID is beyond 600k and is year round as it doesn't stop, while flu season tends to have a season btw winter months with an expected end date. Because one is a seasonal disease with all the deaths lined up in a short period of time and basically zero in the summer and fall months, we're not really comparing numbers or splitting hairs.

 

[Papa Mocha 15]

My mother in law is someone of some importance in UC nursing, she's telling stories of the nurses losing their shit because of family members saying shit to them like:

"He doesn't have covid, it's a hoax."
"It's just the flu."
"Why aren't you trying harder to save them?"

IMO these people should be punched in the face and thrown out the nearest multi story window. No vaccination required.

Dunno how you're doing what you're doing but thank you for hanging in there.

What pisses me off is when it takes away from other patients in ICU who are not crashing but windows get missed like getting dialysis and dialysis catheters inserted in a short time frame because someone else is crashing due to Covid and they probably wouldn't be there if they just got a vaccine. Like I could tune someone up and get them off pressors but they are septic and have a short window to get dialysis going but can't do shit because I don't have a line in place. Then a COVID pt turns suddenly, needs to get intubated real fast and then we need to rebound, write orders and follow along. Meanwhile, my pressors on the original pt are going back up and now the window is closing and have less to work with when dialysis starts if their BP drops because the pressers are maxed out already. It's those kind of things that are blocking care for other patients. Each room affects the other because of work flow. A good team can bounce in and out of rooms to stabilize but when they are all locked down in airborne iso, it slows the whole process down from supply lines to in the room management and that's the trouble I have. When most of the unit is COVID, it hampers the team and burns them out. People call in sick so we start hiring travelers which are expensive and don't know the unit or fully have our trust because no one knows them. It's like you're looking for Drew Doughty on a good night and you get Larry Robinson on his last legs making a bone head play in the zone so you stop passing to him but now you're cut off on the supply line because you don't trust him/her.

It's not all doom and gloom but I say this so people can get an idea of what the work flow is like.

I haven't said as much before but you guys have all been great here to give me a place to vent from time to time and I appreciate it because it keeps me sane. I'm not here all the time but it helps me to clear my head and gives me a place to just lay something out there and then leave it behind.

It does help.

 

[Lt Dan]

We should all chip in and get Papa Mocha a rub-n-tug when this wave subsides

 

[Matt13]

Hi there. No, not typically unless it is a contributing factor. They don't fill out that they died of COVID unless it was considered a contributing factor to the person's death.
The form has a cause of death and then secondary contributing factors like a list.

If they die of a brain herniation secondary to a stroke because of brain bleed, you would include both the brain herniation and say it was secondary to the stroke d/t hypertension.

If they developed a clot secondary to COVID because people's blood turns to sludge then yes would include it.

If they died of sepsis secondary to Ventilator Aquired Pneumonia secondary to a Covid infection, then yes it would all also be included.

It's really up to the MDs discretion at their cause of death which is in their right to determine since they make the medical diagnosis.

As it relates to deaths by month, quarter or season, it is being tabulated but not broken down in such a way at this time because in my opinion it provides a comparison btw the two when they really aren't comparable. Deaths are significantly higher with COVID and it is not seasonal and is airborne vs Flu which is droplet transmission and shorter time frame.

On average, the nasty flu season in 2017 claimed 61,000 lives which was horrible and other years it is low as 11,000-12,000 so they average it out to be 37,000. COVID is beyond 600k and is year round as it doesn't stop, while flu season tends to have a season btw winter months with an expected end date. Because one is a seasonal disease with all the deaths lined up in a short period of time and basically zero in the summer and fall months, we're not really comparing numbers or splitting hairs.

 

[Bandit]

As a vaccinated individual who had Covid, I am not denying anything.

Maybe you didn't understand the question or maybe you have me confused with someone else. I asked a question for insight with someone with knowledge. Unfortunately it was based on a quote you posted but not necessarily at you, but here we are.

If you die in a motorcycle accident because a f***ing Peterbilt ran over your head, but you happened to test positive for Covid, is that death being lumped in with the 500 or not?

Per the CDC about 83 Americans die per hour from stroke. So if someone came in with a predisposition to have a stroke, or had a stroke with Covid due to oxygen issues, even though one may or may not had to do with the other it is important to know these facts. Did the stroke kill him, or did Covid or was it a combination and the flu would have done the same thing. Again this does make a difference for how many people died FROM Covid.

Having proper models for comparison is important for any argument. When comparing Flu to Covid, the flu numbers are always based on a year. Why are all the Covid numbers from inception until now? Maybe a better model for people to understand is Covid Deaths in any year per capita, or even Covid Deaths post vaccination compared to pre. Of course that does not take in to account things like advancements in how doctors treat now such as assisted breathing compared to ventilators.




Or maybe this is the issue as it was just a poorly written article.

You literally said “I am curious of people’s opinions” and you got one. Maybe next time ask a better question if that’s not what you wanted? Also the part of the article that you’re taking issue with is a direct quote from a doctor, not some artistic interpretation by a journalism intern.

 

[LAKings88]

What pisses me off is when it takes away from other patients in ICU who are not crashing but windows get missed like getting dialysis and dialysis catheters inserted in a short time frame because someone else is crashing due to Covid and they probably wouldn't be there if they just got a vaccine. Like I could tune someone up and get them off pressors but they are septic and have a short window to get dialysis going but can't do shit because I don't have a line in place. Then a COVID pt turns suddenly, needs to get intubated real fast and then we need to rebound, write orders and follow along. Meanwhile, my pressors on the original pt are going back up and now the window is closing and have less to work with when dialysis starts if their BP drops because the pressers are maxed out already. It's those kind of things that are blocking care for other patients. Each room affects the other because of work flow. A good team can bounce in and out of rooms to stabilize but when they are all locked down in airborne iso, it slows the whole process down from supply lines to in the room management and that's the trouble I have. When most of the unit is COVID, it hampers the team and burns them out. People call in sick so we start hiring travelers which are expensive and don't know the unit or fully have our trust because no one knows them. It's like you're looking for Drew Doughty on a good night and you get Larry Robinson on his last legs making a bone head play in the zone so you stop passing to him but now you're cut off on the supply line because you don't trust him/her.

It's not all doom and gloom but I say this so people can get an idea of what the work flow is like.

I haven't said as much before but you guys have all been great here to give me a place to vent from time to time and I appreciate it because it keeps me sane. I'm not here all the time but it helps me to clear my head and gives me a place to just lay something out there and then leave it behind.

It does help.

Hang in there Papa. Be praying for you. Thank you for what you do and the clarity you bring to the discussion.

 

[jfont]

Or maybe this is the issue as it was just a poorly written article.

Yours and Lt Dan's opinion.

My opinion is I think the media is doing its best and though not perfect, it portrays things pretty accurately (re: AP article).

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

But if you did let things go somewhat non-vaccination/mask wise, you would likely end up seeing (for better or worse) a MUCH better presence of CV treatment and testing. IMHO, there's been a bizarre and curiously egregious lack of effort put in this aspect of things. It's like all the eggs went to the Vaccine and ignored treatment/testing. There is no reason we should be at a point where the only good test is a horrible nose swab that takes a medical person to do and results 24-72 hours later. That makes no sense. The lack of a treatment is also a shame -- resulting in the crazy/wacky, unproven treatments that have been pushed over the course of the past 15 months.

@KINGS17 and I agreed on this before we agreed on anything else way back even before vaccine availability--something we've really collectively failed at is easy access to quick testing and quick results, especially since early on several of those were proposed (and subsequently...disappeared) and many upcoming events want either vaccine proof or negative test proof. Whatever happened to the 15-minute tests that we were going to do before school, restaurants, etc--I'm not saying lets do those now as they're invasive and we have alternatives (vaccine), but the tech and distribution were there, so surely there's SOME use, right?

Re: treatments that's trickier since the best 'treatments' are preventative care and, thus far, the vaccine itself--even when not fully preventing the disease, the rates of dire sickness/death vs. those unvaccinated is SEVERELY different. However, treatments DO exist, they just seem prohibitively expensive and, like testing, never seemed to have scaled up. I agree with you that efforts seem to have been distributed poorly as there are several lines of defense (attack?) vs. this pandemic. I know early on I was fortunate enough to have connections so that my parents were able to get the antibody therapy and it was amazing--damn near full recovery for my dad within 48 hours, reduced my mom to a severe cold in the same time period, when they were both extremely high risk and crashing fast. Now of course not everyone can have access to that, but surely we can do more...

That being said I'm the black sheep in my family and of my friends that didn't go into medicine. I'm surrounded by MDs and the like. And every single one of them bemoans the lack of health ed for prevention in this country. This situation is no exception. I always grew up assuming everyone knew basic first aid and sickness treatment/prevention because of my background but as part of their education each one had to spend time/community service hours in a public clinic and even basic hygiene is something that people as a whole struggle with re: prevention...so it's not surprising really how hard this is to grasp and why such scattered info has a negative effect.

I don't really see those as counter points. Prior to vaccine availability you have an argument about the detrimental economic/education/mental health effects that you mentioned of a lockdown/shutdown/distance learning etc. But the vaccine itself is an alternative to those measures, reducing the need for a lockdown, reducing those costs in addition to the health care costs that Fishhead mentioned. All of that just points to an increased importance in vaccination.

Yep, for all intents and purposes, the vaccine has been 'working as intended' if not better as evidenced in results thus far.

I imagine we'll get to a seasonal booster like the flu shot as this thing becomes endemic which is unfortunate but was always a possibility especially in the world described above.

 

[DoktorJeep]

It’s unfortunate that mistrust in the medical industrial complex has led to many people choosing not to vaccinate. I read an article discussing a survey of attitudes among the unvaccinated. Many folks who are vaccine hesitant have been let down by the healthcare system.

My hope is that our countrymen put aside their frustrations with our politics and come to believe the quickest way to return to normal is to vaccinate if eligible.

 

[ricardfromage]

With a 5% death rate, that's more than the entire populations of any state not named California, Texas, Florida, or New York. That's a shitload of people.

What gets lost in the stupid politicizing of vaccines, which never seemed to be a problem before the internet showed up, is the literally stupid amount of money that is saved when people get vaccinated. My father got COVID right when vaccines started rolling out, he didn't have a chance to get it yet. The result was a near death experience and a 2 month hospital stay. I saw the bill, it would make almost anyone crap their pants. While it was covered, it was 7 figures. The amount of costs incurred from letting the virus run rampant would completely dwarf the amount of money made by the companies who created the vaccines. You are talking about hundreds of billions of dollars. So who ends up paying for all of that? American taxpayers who pay for health insurance, that's who. It's not just hospital costs, it's long-term care too, along with the unnecessary deaths and costs of those who need hospitalization for things other than COVID but couldn't get the necessary care.

So a percentage only tells a fraction of the story, pun intended.

Interesting point(s).

We aren't talking about 5% of the population though, we are talking about less than 2% of the population and regardless of rather or not someone believes that the vaccines are safe or worthwhile it simply has to be a choice left up to the individual to make when considering receiving the thing. Before we bring up taxpayers I think we have to remember our right to chose rather or not to participate and how that decision is tied directly into our own personal freedoms as guaranteed in the constitution. As to our tax dollars being spent in the areas that you have outlined (and rightly so) the bigger point is that they are OUR tax dollars and maybe instead of funding bridges to nowhere or having to constantly capturing and arresting criminals that have been freed for no good reason due to one stupid politician or another or for any other of a myriad of reasons maybe it is time we spend our tax dollars on our right to decide rather or not we want to participate in something that has to do with our own individual bodies. I also think that each state should be responsible individually for its share of the issues and laws regarding said issues when it comes to how it deals with this virus.

If 98% of us are surviving this thing outright then many myself included believe we should now be trending towards herd immunity instead of archaic laws and ridiculous rules when nothing seems to be working. Too tired to put my mind to it on any serious level right now but I do appreciate your position.

 

[KingLB]

Interesting point(s).

We aren't talking about 5% of the population though, we are talking about less than 2% of the population and regardless of rather or not someone believes that the vaccines are safe or worthwhile it simply has to be a choice left up to the individual to make when considering receiving the thing. Before we bring up taxpayers I think we have to remember our right to chose rather or not to participate and how that decision is tied directly into our own personal freedoms as guaranteed in the constitution. As to our tax dollars being spent in the areas that you have outlined (and rightly so) the bigger point is that they are OUR tax dollars and maybe instead of funding bridges to nowhere or having to constantly capturing and arresting criminals that have been freed for no good reason due to one stupid politician or another or for any other of a myriad of reasons maybe it is time we spend our tax dollars on our right to decide rather or not we want to participate in something that has to do with our own individual bodies. I also think that each state should be responsible individually for its share of the issues and laws regarding said issues when it comes to how it deals with this virus.

If 98% of us are surviving this thing outright then many myself included believe we should now be trending towards herd immunity instead of archaic laws and ridiculous rules when nothing seems to be working. Too tired to put my mind to it on any serious level right now but I do appreciate your position.

I’ll point you towards fisheads post in the other thread as it lays out the myth of “freedom” many seem to have.

And merely say, while you are comfortable with 2% death a year from Covid (which is beyond shocking but I digress). What if it’s not a one off? What if it is yearly? What if anti-bodies only last 9-12 months? Is 2% annual population decline something that is still acceptable to you?

 

[ricardfromage]

I’ll point you towards fisheads post in the other thread as it lays out the myth of “freedom” many seem to have.

And merely say, while you are comfortable with 2% death a year from Covid (which is beyond shocking but I digress). What if it’s not a one off? What if it is yearly? What if anti-bodies only last 9-12 months? Is 2% annual population decline something that is still acceptable to you?

What do you mean "what if"?

What if there is no deadly virus? What if it is all a hoax? What if the vaccines are what is killing some people? What if this is all part of some CIA mind rape? What if the reported deaths from Covid are super over reported?

I mean if we are going to fantasize about what if's and could be's then we will both likely be wrong in some ways and right in others. I too am disgusted by a 2% mortality rate by the way. I simply believe that it isn't worth giving up what I determine to be my own interpretation of Freedom over it and I pray that if I were to die of Covid that my family friends and neighbors would do the same. But I live in a state that eats sleeps and breaths freedom from oppression 24/7. I am literally a short walk from where the gov murdered a family at Ruby Ridge and know a few of the family members personally that where there that day or soon after. I mean for what it is worth. Not that you should give any credence to what I have written simply because of where I live.

I merely state that to show you the mentality of the vast majority of the people in the state where I live myself included. If Cali wants to live act and die differently then I support their right to do so whole heartedly and would stand by them if the govt didn't allow them to do so. I have written about my states ultra low morbidity rates and our never having mask mandates in my area and now in our entire state. It is how we live. Instead of fear and what if's we go about our business as normal. Some people get vaccinated and some don't. If people die from their decision either way we mourn their death and after a time go about our lives. In other words we make our own decisions for the most part and most of us live in the outdoors more than not. I invite you and any of my fellow HF Kings fans (a few have taken me up on the offer over the past couple of years) to get in touch with me and come up for a visit. You will be shocked. I still have family and friends in Cali and they are all very shocked when they visit especially over the past couple of years.

 

[KingLB]

What do you mean "what if"?

What if there is no deadly virus? What if it is all a hoax? What if the vaccines are what is killing some people? What if this is all part of some CIA mind rape? What if the reported deaths from Covid are super over reported?

I mean if we are going to fantasize about what if's and could be's then we will both likely be wrong in some ways and right in others. I too am disgusted by a 2% mortality rate by the way. I simply believe that it isn't worth giving up what I determine to be my own interpretation of Freedom over it and I pray that if I were to die of Covid that my family friends and neighbors would do the same. But I live in a state that eats sleeps and breaths freedom from oppression 24/7. I am literally a short walk from where the gov murdered a family at Ruby Ridge and know a few of the family members personally that where there that day or soon after. I mean for what it is worth. Not that you should give any credence to what I have written simply because of where I live.

I merely state that to show you the mentality of the vast majority of the people in the state where I live myself included. If Cali wants to live act and die differently then I support their right to do so whole heartedly and would stand by them if the govt didn't allow them to do so. I have written about my states ultra low morbidity rates and our never having mask mandates in my area and now in our entire state. It is how we live. Instead of fear and what if's we go about our business as normal. Some people get vaccinated and some don't. If people die from their decision either way we mourn their death and after a time go about our lives. In other words we make our own decisions for the most part and most of us live in the outdoors more than not. I invite you and any of my fellow HF Kings fans (a few have taken me up on the offer over the past couple of years) to get in touch with me and come up for a visit. You will be shocked. I still have family and friends in Cali and they are all very shocked when they visit especially over the past couple of years.

Sorry I gave up after the first paragraph, not even sure why I started with you Lolol.