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Value of: Gaudreau for Lindholm?

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RamsNducks said:
That's debateable. Both players are franchise players IMO and by entire fan bases who post on these boards. I was gauging value for value. And if you don't need a defenseman. Why are flames fans doing trade proposals in Trouba trade discussion.

I was merely asking if we could solve both teams troubles that's all.
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Haha what exactly are the Flames troubles? A media-leaked contract demand that has spiraled out of control? Gaudreau will be a Flame long term, it's not a problem at all.
 
Gaudreau > Lindholm right now. With Lindholm, you're paying for potential. With Gaudreau, you have a young player who's already broken out as the cream of the NHL crop and one of the most dynamic forwards in the league. Lindholm only played like a #1 towards the later part of last season. Lindholm has the potential to break into "elite" status, but he's not there yet. Gaudreau, however, is, and by a comfortable margin.

Obviously, d-men are more valuable than wingers, but that alone doesn't even the value.
 
Kritty said:
This is flawed right from the start. Since when is Lindholm a franchise d? I didn't think 2nd pairing dmen that are solid yet unspectacular were that rare compared to players with the sublime skill of Gaudreau.

And since when do the Flames need a franchise dman? Giordano, Brodie, Hamilton, I think they are doing just fine.
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So you're saying Gaudreau is a Franchise F...?
 
hamzarocks said:
Gaudreau has a lot more value than lindholm, seriously it isn't even close. The only dmen with comparable value may be ekblad and I wouldn't trade gaudreau for him either. Gaudreau is a top 20 nhl player right now, while lindholm isn't a top 20 dmen

also brodie is a franchise dmen or close to it, and hamilton is pretty good. They don't need a dmen they need to keep a guy who might ned up better than iginla for them.
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Apples and Oranages.

75% of goals come from the HSCA.
2/3 of GA affect is Dman HSCA shot reduction.
the other 1/3 is Goal HSCA save%

A teams GA establishes what GF is needed to be playoff competitive. teams need to be .31 GF/60 better than Ga at even and on Special teams.

Lindholm faced 1st comp is a top 10 d at preveting HSCA shots.
Gibson #17 HSCA save% .870
Andersson #24 HSCA save% .862
Anaheims D had below average HSCA goaltending.
yet
Lindholm was still #18 EVGA d 1.77 in the game.

That mean there were 245 forwards who can generate playoff standards with his defence.
A line of
Comeau - Arcobello - Kassain could score enough to be playoff standard.

Dmen who cheat for offence and abandon the HSCA often yield very High HSCA rates. As a result very high GA is often no fault of the goalie.

Giordano bottom 20 HSCA D.
#201 VEGA/60 D 2.80
Forwards need to generate 3.11 EVGF/60 with gio's defence to be able to have a chance at a Wild card spot.
last year 11 of 378 forwards could generate 3.11 EVGF/60

Lindholm is an Anchor D in the style of Weber; Doughty; Muzzin; Hjarlmasson; Larsson. Who can face the other teams best and establish one of the easiest GA line in the sand.

Johnny Gudreau last 2 years
PP:
#94 Fwd 7.11 PPGF/60
#56 Fwd 4.70 PPP/60
#125 fwd 1.57 PPG/60

Even: Facing comp based on offensive production
3rd comp (players like Bozak; Kesler; Purcell; Chimera; Holland; Higgins; Henrique)
81gm 29EVG 39 EVA 68 EVP +21
.358 EVG/gm
.482 EVA/gm
.840 EVP/gm
+.259 Goal dif/gm

2nd Comp ( Maroon; Stahlberg; Ladd; Pommenville; Simmonds)
39gm 6 EVG 16 EVA 22 EVP +11
.154 EVG/gm
.410 EVA/gm
.564 EVP/60
+.282 Goal diff/gm

1st comp (Mcdavid; Lucic; Draisatl; Eberle; Kopitar; Kuznetsov; Hudler; Malkin)
39gm 5 EVG 5 EVA 10 EVP -17
.128 VEG/gm
.128 EVA/gm
.256 EVP/gm
-.436 Goal diff/gm

Lindholm is one of those 10 Dmen who anchor your team for conference and cup final runs.

Gaudreau is not a PvP player.
but sheltered by a PvP line
he can crush the lower comp creating a good goal diff.

As you go deeper in the Playoffs you run into teams with 2 top 90 Offensive forwards pairs on 2 top 6 lines.
 
MrBigglesworth said:
Yeah I don't get this. Lindholm over Gaudreau is an easy choice IMO.
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1. there are a group of people who do not understand Dmen defend.

2. offense is driven by forwards.
of the top 300 scorers 93.8% of the 3242 even goals come from forwards.

3. The elite offensive Dmen generate at a #9 Forward (#270 -300 player) level.

4. Primary role of a Dman is Defence of HSCA area.
lindholm one of the best.

5. Dmen GA establishes the playoff level of GF/60

6.There are people out there who do not look at the off competition faced.
that is them saying Jay beagle is the same as Crosby!

7. There are some who do not understand as you move along in the playoffs.
each round makes it harder to shelter players who cannot face PvP.

Gaudreau versus 1st comp (Mcdavid; Lucic; Draisatl; Eberle; Kopitar; Kuznetsov; Hudler; Malkin)
39gm 5 EVG 5 EVA 10 EVP -17
.128 VEG/gm
.128 EVA/gm
.256 EVP/gm
-.436 Goal diff/gm
 
Beninho said:
Have you been hiding under a rock for the past 2 years... Yes he is
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Year 1 was 64 points...that = Franchise Forward to you..?

Year 2 at 78 points. Panarin did it too; is he a Franchise player as well? Or do different rules apply because he doesn't play for your team..?
 
WhiskeyYourTheDevils said:
There are a ton of great U24 defenders in the league today, many of whom are objectively better than Lindholm.

Faulk
Jones
Ekblad
Rielly
Jones
Klingberg
Hamilton
Parayko
Murray
Gostisbehere
Larsson
Slavvin
Maatta
Klefbom
C Murphy

With Provorov, Hanifin, Werenski etc all on the way.
Click to expand...

The only one on that list who is objectively better is Faulk. Every other defenseman on that list might be better at some things, but is also worse at others, and as an all-around defenseman is arguably worse, or just equal. When you've got guys like Maatta and Connor Murphy as better. Or even Gostisbehere, you're reaching.
 
Last edited:
oilerbear said:
1. there are a group of people who do not understand Dmen defend.

2. offense is driven by forwards.
of the top 300 scorers 93.8% of the 3242 even goals come from forwards.

3. The elite offensive Dmen generate at a #9 Forward (#270 -300 player) level.

4. Primary role of a Dman is Defence of HSCA area.
lindholm one of the best.

5. Dmen GA establishes the playoff level of GF/60

6.There are people out there who do not look at the off competition faced.
that is them saying Jay beagle is the same as Crosby!

7. There are some who do not understand as you move along in the playoffs.
each round makes it harder to shelter players who cannot face PvP.

Gaudreau versus 1st comp (Mcdavid; Lucic; Draisatl; Eberle; Kopitar; Kuznetsov; Hudler; Malkin)
39gm 5 EVG 5 EVA 10 EVP -17
.128 VEG/gm
.128 EVA/gm
.256 EVP/gm
-.436 Goal diff/gm
Click to expand...

Where did you come up with those players as "1st comp"? Your groupings seem way off . . Henrique and Kesler >> Stalberg and Maroon
 
WhiskeyYourTheDevils said:
Where did you come up with those players as "1st comp"? Your groupings seem way off . . Henrique and Kesler >> Stalberg and Maroon
Click to expand...

Comp at even is based on Even production.
#1 to 90 (1st comp)
#91 to 180 (2nd comp)
#181 to 240 (3rd comp)
Mcdavid #2 2.69 EVp/60
Kuznetsov #4 2.54 EVP/60
Draisatl #20 2.20 EVP/60
Kopitar #23 2.18 EVP/60
Hudler #27 2.10 EVp/60
Lucic #41 2.04 EVP/60
malkin #82 1.86 EVP/60
Eberle #83 1.85 EVP/60
 
there are 18 players on each of the 30 team that generate offence
540 players.
Calgary's elite Offensive D:

Brodie
#6 Dman 1.30 EVp/60 #230 player (#8 team Fwd)
#185 Dman 2.56 EVGA Damn; 2.87 EVGF/60
36 /378 forwards can generate offence needed to have a chance at a Wild card spot.
You need a line made up of 3 #1 forwards.

Giordano
#14 Dman 1.14 EVP/60 #276 Player (#10 team Fwd)
#201 2.80 EVGA D man; 3.11 EVGF/60
11 /378 forwards can generate offence needed to have a chance at a Wild card spot.
no line exists!

Hamilton
#29 Dman 1.01 EVp/60 #323 player (#11 team Fwd)
#186 Dman 2.57 EVGA/60; 2.88 EVGF/60
35 /378 forwards can generate offence needed to have a chance at a Wild card spot.
You need a line made up of 3 #1 forwards.

Jokipakka
#37 Dman .96 EVP/60 #346 player (#12 team fwd)
#141 Dman 2.28 EVGA/60; 2.28 + .31 = 2.59
92/378 forwards can generate offence needed to have a chance at a Wild card spot.
you need a line that averages top 3 forwards. production.

Monohan C #29 Fwd 2.96
Gaudreau LW #39 Fwd 2.86
Frolik RW #115 Forward 2.48
this line would average 2.77 EVP/60

Giordano; Brodies; Hamilton; and Engelland's Def play are playoff killers.

the top offensive Dmen genrate like 4th line forwards.
Talk about overvaluing a skill.
Yeah that 4th line forward offence makes a huge difference.
Brutal understand of the new faster game!

DEFENCEmen's primary role?
 
the premise of this thread is bad

1. ducks can't afford gaudreau
2. the flames don't need a LHD
3. gaudreau right now has higher value
 
oilerbear said:
Comp at even is based on Even production.
#1 to 90 (1st comp)
#91 to 180 (2nd comp)
#181 to 240 (3rd comp)
Mcdavid #2 2.69 EVp/60
Kuznetsov #4 2.54 EVP/60
Draisatl #20 2.20 EVP/60
Kopitar #23 2.18 EVP/60
Hudler #27 2.10 EVp/60
Lucic #41 2.04 EVP/60
malkin #82 1.86 EVP/60
Eberle #83 1.85 EVP/60
Click to expand...

But then how are you coming up with GP when its all split between different players? Shouldn't it be by minute? I thought I recalled that Gaudreau's Corsi numbers actually improved with higher level of competition?
 
Lol the Flames are one of my most hated teams and I say Gaudreau >>>> Lindholm

Lindholm is so so so so overrated on HF. It's ridiculous!
 
Desmond Hume said:
Lol the Flames are one of my most hated teams and I say Gaudreau >>>> Lindholm

Lindholm is so so so so overrated on HF. It's ridiculous!
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Hes only overrated by the ppl who call him top 10, but you can easily atgue for him in the top 20 since there is alot of evidence that any duckd player who shares ice with him defends less
 
Love #47 but Gaudreau is worth significantly more.

On top of that, G....s last name is a pain in the ass to spell, so I want him nowhere near Anaheim.
 
MrBigglesworth said:
Year 1 was 64 points...that = Franchise Forward to you..?

Year 2 at 78 points. Panarin did it too; is he a Franchise player as well? Or do different rules apply because he doesn't play for your team..?
Click to expand...

I don't even gonna give a response to this, I would love to see the point totals Gaudreau and Kane would have together. Gaudreau is a 23 year old ppg player on a line without a former hart winner. magbe if you take your homer glasses off you would see that Gaudreau has done more with far less and is younger
 
Beninho said:
I don't even gonna give a response to this, I would love to see the point totals Gaudreau and Kane would have together. Gaudreau is a 23 year old ppg player on a line without a former hart winner. magbe if you take your homer glasses off you would see that Gaudreau has done more with far less and is younger
Click to expand...

He's a ppg winger who hasn't scored a ppg! That's talent!
 
WhiskeyYourTheDevils said:
There are a ton of great U24 defenders in the league today, many of whom are objectively better than Lindholm.

Faulk
Jones
Ekblad
Rielly
Jones
Klingberg
Hamilton
Parayko
Murray
Gostisbehere
Larsson
Slavvin
Maatta
Klefbom
C Murphy

With Provorov, Hanifin, Werenski etc all on the way.
Click to expand...
What a laughably awful list
 
WhiskeyYourTheDevils said:
Ekblad, Jones, RiellyFaulk, Gostisbehere, Parayko, Klingberg, Larsson, and Murray are all pretty clearly better. His offense just isn't good enough to be an elite top pair defenseman at this point. Adam Larsson scored more ES points playing for the Devils . . .
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All wrong answers in bold. The ducks had an absurdly low team sh% with lindholm on the ice, in other words he was highly unlucky which is unlikely to happen again
 
WhiskeyYourTheDevils said:
There are a ton of great U24 defenders in the league today, many of whom are objectively better than Lindholm.

Faulk
Jones
Ekblad
Rielly
Jones
Klingberg
Hamilton
Parayko
Murray
Gostisbehere
Larsson
Slavvin
Maatta
Klefbom
C Murphy

With Provorov, Hanifin, Werenski etc all on the way.
Click to expand...

Objectively better? Your ridiculous Gaudreau fanboyism, which is one of the worst obsessions I've ever seen on this board, does not enable you to put together anything approaching objective. Names like Maatta as even in a conversation with Lindholm is ridiculous.
 
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