Value of: Gaudreau for Lindholm?

[CaptainSexyPants]

Not sure if you actually believe what you're spewing but Gaudreau absolutely is one of the top forwards in the league and is worth a lot more than Lindholm.

Did you read the whole thing or were you skimming?
The entire point here is exactly what a person is defining "one of the top forwards in the league" as. Is he Top 50? Definitely. Top 5? Not a chance in hell.
High end first line forward? Absolutely. Franchise player comparable to Kane and Ovechkin? No way.
That's the discussion. It's where in that spectrum someone would rank him that makes a Gaudreau for Lindholm debate interesting. We're not actual GM's, you realize? It's a discussion board to, y'know, discuss.

I'm not a Flames fan but I'd take Gaudreau before Lindholm and two ANA 1sts, easily.

...All right just disregard everything I said above. If this is actually what you think, meaningful debate is going to be hopeless.

 

[Beninho*]

Good grief.
You've addressed virtually nothing I've said, so you're certainly not 'spelling anything out' for me. Your only responses are "he's, uh, younger...than...lots of other guys", "no GM would make that trade" and "Gaudreau is one of the best at offense". Yeah those are compelling. I'm uh, not sure why I don't see your side of this.

You keep bringing up age like it only applies to Gaudreau. Sure, go ahead and scratch a couple old guys off the list if you like. But you think Gaudreau is the only kid with the potential to get better? Eichel, Matthews, Laine, Puljujarvi, Drouin, Forsberg, Draisaitl, etc.? None of those guys have a shot at being top ten forwards, but Gaudreau is a lock?

Off the first list your only problem is Stamkos. Second list you, personally, would scratch four names. So even from a hometown guy and seemingly one of the biggest Gaudreau supporters in the world, you agree that there are at least fourteen forwards currently better than he is. Yet in your mind he's, like, so far ahead of Lindholm at his position it's ridiculous..? In looking over a top defensemen thread from January of this year, the majority have Lindholm above #25 and I'm pretty sure that improves from Feb-now. So #15 for you, an extreme homer, and as a winger which is by far the easiest position to find good players at...vs. <#25 D for the majority of HFBoard responders, playing arguably the toughest position to find good players at. You really can't see why someone would take Lindholm over Johnny Gretzky?

As for 'why I would compare him to Kane'..
I used Kane as an example because Flames fans do. Constantly, and as a direct comparison.
I used Ovechkin as an example because Flames fans (again, consistently) throw around 'top three LW'.

Don't bring those things up and say that he belongs with the best of the best, only to cry that it's not a fair comparison when you get challenged on the 'Why'. You can't have it both ways; either you're arguing that he's already there, or you're arguing he can potentially get there...which is it?

He's a far more valuable asset than the majority of players you listed, I'm not gonna write a novel as you clearly have lots of time on your hands but Lindholms value isn't near Gaudreaus. You can believe what you want but again Lindholm is not elite at anything yet, Gaudreau is elite offensively and has 5 more years of RFA years. Gaudreau is more valuable. Have a nice day

 

[Beninho*]

Did you read the whole thing or were you skimming?
The entire point here is exactly what a person is defining "one of the top forwards in the league" as. Is he Top 50? Definitely. Top 5? Not a chance in hell.
High end first line forward? Absolutely. Franchise player comparable to Kane and Ovechkin? No way.
That's the discussion. It's where in that spectrum someone would rank him that makes a Gaudreau for Lindholm debate interesting. We're not actual GM's, you realize? It's a discussion board to, y'know, discuss.



...All right just disregard everything I said above. If this is actually what you think, meaningful debate is going to be hopeless.

Gaudreau has and will continue to be calgarys franchise player hes out shown his entire draft class, is able to break the game open at any point. I'm done arguing with you because you clearly don't understand that players with Gaudreaus ability are far less common than players with Lindholms.

 

[iloveloov*]

Johnny is more valuable than you're giving him credit for, Bigglesworth. Thornton might be a bit better than Gaudreau right now but San Jose would make that 1 for 1 trade every day of the week. Why is that?

Players I'd easily trade Gaudreau for:

Crosby, Kopitar, Kane, Ovechkin, Benn, Toews, McDavid

Players I might consider trading Gaudreau for with much hesitation:

Tavares, Seguin, Tarasenko, Bergeron

Players I wouldn't trade Gaudreau for:

Stamkos, Malkin, Getzlaf, Thornton, Giroux, Hall, Wheeler, Pavelski

 

[CaptainSexyPants]

Johnny is more valuable than you're giving him credit for, Bigglesworth. Thornton might be a bit better than Gaudreau right now but San Jose would make that 1 for 1 trade every day of the week. Why is that?

Players I'd easily trade Gaudreau for:

Crosby, Kopitar, Kane, Ovechkin, Benn, Toews, McDavid

Players I might consider trading Gaudreau for with much hesitation:

Tavares, Seguin, Tarasenko, Bergeron

Players I wouldn't trade Gaudreau for:

Stamkos, Malkin, Getzlaf, Thornton, Giroux, Hall, Wheeler, Pavelski

Yeah, I don't disagree. That list wasn't on value, it was a 'who is currently better'. (I'd put a much different list together on value, including people like Eichel and Matthews and excluding guys like Thornton and Getzlaf.) I was more trying to address the "he's a current top 10 forward" comment.

It's nothing against Gaudreau. I think he's very likely to continue his production and even expand on it a bit. But I wouldn't call a guy that scores 30 goals/PPG "Franchise" level and hold him up with the Ovechkins and the Kanes. He's a second tier guy (or third, if you want to put Crosby/McDavid 'Generational' types in one, and Ovechkin/Kopitar 'Franchise' types in another). But people don't need to freak out about that, it's not an insult to be held in the same tier as guys like Pavelski and Giroux.

 

[Beninho*]

Yeah, I don't disagree. That list wasn't on value, it was a 'who is currently better'. (I'd put a much different list together on value, including people like Eichel and Matthews and excluding guys like Thornton and Getzlaf.) I was more trying to address the "he's a current top 10 forward" comment.

It's nothing against Gaudreau. I think he's very likely to continue his production and even expand on it a bit. But I wouldn't call a guy that scores 30 goals/PPG "Franchise" level and hold him up with the Ovechkins and the Kanes. He's a second tier guy (or third, if you want to put Crosby/McDavid 'Generational' types in one, and Ovechkin/Kopitar 'Franchise' types in another). But people don't need to freak out about that, it's not an insult to be held in the same tier as guys like Pavelski and Giroux.

He's already scored 30 goals and had 78 pts in 79 game last year. Love how you know nothing about him at all but think you put him in your "third tier". Stop spewing non sense

 

[Beninho*]

Johnny is more valuable than you're giving him credit for, Bigglesworth. Thornton might be a bit better than Gaudreau right now but San Jose would make that 1 for 1 trade every day of the week. Why is that?

Players I'd easily trade Gaudreau for:

Crosby, Kopitar, Kane, Ovechkin, Benn, Toews, McDavid

Players I might consider trading Gaudreau for with much hesitation:

Tavares, Seguin, Tarasenko, Bergeron

Players I wouldn't trade Gaudreau for:

Stamkos, Malkin, Getzlaf, Thornton, Giroux, Hall, Wheeler, Pavelski

Stamkos and Malkin I get, the rest of the players you stated at the the end there hell no. All of those teams if offered Gaudreau for a 1 for 1 would take it in a heartbeat. Wheeler? Are you ****ing kidding me, took him his entire career to put up the point totals Gaudreau put up in his second year. You guys need to get your head check Jesus christ

 

[CaptainSexyPants]

He's already scored 30 goals and had 78 pts in 79 game last year. Love how you know nothing about him at all but think you put him in your "third tier". Stop spewing non sense

So you uh...you went right by the part where I specifically said he was a "30 goal/PPG" guy...?

Stamkos and Malkin I get, the rest of the players you stated at the the end there hell no. All of those teams if offered Gaudreau for a 1 for 1 would take it in a heartbeat. Wheeler? Are you ****ing kidding me, took him his entire career to put up the point totals Gaudreau put up in his second year. You guys need to get your head check Jesus christ

He's agreeing with you. Cripes, man, settle down and actually read the stuff you're replying to.

 

[Dertell]

OP forgot about the expansion draft. That, and classic "let's under-value ppg because small winger" bs.

Wow I can't believe Kesler and the rest of the forwards had better corsi playing with Lindholm than Bieksa and Stoner. Give him the Norris.

Lindholm had a better zone-adjusted Corsi, xGoal% and Goal% with 4C Horcoff than Kesler playing with Vatanen, Fowler or Despres, so I don't see your point.

 

[Boumsalot]

Pshh maybe in chel 15

 

[Yanda]

edit - noticed a similar post above

 

[ThatSaid]

LW or not, he's much more valuable than Lindholm, who is a great player. Also, in what world is Lindholm already a top-10 D-man?

Doughty
Karlsson
Keith
Weber
Subban
Hedman
Josi
Pietrangelo
Burns
Vlasic

Make your case as to how he's better than any of those. ^

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

LW or not, he's much more valuable than Lindholm, who is a great player. Also, in what world is Lindholm already a top-10 D-man?

Doughty
Karlsson
Keith
Weber
Subban
Hedman
Josi
Pietrangelo
Burns
Vlasic

Make your case as to how he's better than any of those. ^

In what world is gaudruae top 10 forward...

 

[ThatSaid]

In what world is gaudruae top 10 forward...

Well, he's 12th in points since he entered the league. So, there is a case to be made, especially considering who he's played with. Speaking of Getz and Perry: He's been 9 points better than Getz, and 25 points better than Perry since he entered the league.
http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?rep...2016&gameType=2&sort=points&aggregate=1&pos=S

Edit: He's 11th in points among forwards. Karlsson had him by a point or two and I didn't filter.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Well, he's 12th in points since he entered the league. So, there is a case to be made, especially considering who he's played with.

http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?rep...2016&gameType=2&sort=points&aggregate=1&pos=S

Points per game hes 21st which would be a better representation seeing as diff players played different amuonts of games in that time.


And that's just looking at offensive #'s and ignoring people like a Toews or Bergeron who pretty much everyone would take over JG

 

[iloveloov*]

Points per game hes 21st which would be a better representation seeing as diff players played different amuonts of games in that time.


And that's just looking at offensive #'s and ignoring people like a Toews or Bergeron who pretty much everyone would take over JG

Points aren't everything. The NHL is an entertainment business and Gaudreau is easily in the top 3 most entertaining forwards in the game.

 

[ThatSaid]

Points aren't everything. The NHL is an entertainment business and Gaudreau is easily in the top 3 most entertaining forwards in the game.

My main point is that Gaudreau is far closer to being a top 10 forward than Lindholm is to being a top 10 D-man. Also, when it comes to wingers, I think most people weigh offensive production very heavily.

If we only count wingers, he's the #5 top-scoring winger since he's entered the league. Can anyone really make a case that he's not already a top-10 winger?

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Points aren't everything. The NHL is an entertainment business and Gaudreau is easily in the top 3 most entertaining forwards in the game.

What is this advanced advanced stats?

 

[ThatSaid]

Points per game hes 21st which would be a better representation seeing as diff players played different amuonts of games in that time.


And that's just looking at offensive #'s and ignoring people like a Toews or Bergeron who pretty much everyone would take over JG

Look at your stat table. Its littered with guys who only played one game. He's actually 15th at PPG. He's 14th among forwards, and 5th at wing. 3rd at LW.

 

[iloveloov*]

My main point is that Gaudreau is far closer to being a top 10 forward than Lindholm is to being a top 10 D-man. Also, when it comes to wingers, I think most people weigh offensive production very heavily.



If we only count wingers, he's the #5 top-scoring winger since he's entered the league. Can anyone really make a case that he's not already a top-10 winger?

Yes and I agree with you. I just think there's more than numbers consider here.

What is this advanced advanced stats?

Advanced intangibles. Forget about stats.

 

[ThatSaid]

Yes and I agree with you. I just think there's more than numbers consider here.



Advanced intangibles. Forget about stats.

I agree that JG is entertaining, and has a lot of likable qualities. Others may not share our views. Numbers are something everybody has to agree on, because they are facts. They might not tell the whole story, but its a good starting point.

 

[CaptainSexyPants]

Points aren't everything. The NHL is an entertainment business and Gaudreau is easily in the top 3 most entertaining forwards in the game.

"Easily"?

I think most people would agree that McDavid and Crosby have got him hands down. Maybe there's a case to be made for 3rd, but it's subjective at best.

 

[iloveloov*]

I agree that JG is entertaining, and has a lot of likable qualities. Others may not share our views. Numbers are something everybody has to agree on, because they are facts. They might not tell the whole story, but its a good starting point.

That's fair enough, carry on then.

"Easily"?

I think most people would agree that McDavid and Crosby have got him hands down. Maybe there's a case to be made for 3rd, but it's subjective at best.

I've got him behind McDavid and Kane. Crosby plays an incredibly effective game but it's not as flashy or exciting which isn't a knock on Sid.

 

[CaptainSexyPants]

My main point is that Gaudreau is far closer to being a top 10 forward than Lindholm is to being a top 10 D-man. Also, when it comes to wingers, I think most people weigh offensive production very heavily.

This is apples to oranges though. D are worth more than F; especially when it's a winger.

If we only count wingers, he's the #5 top-scoring winger since he's entered the league. Can anyone really make a case that he's not already a top-10 winger?

This is even worse. At least with F vs. D, even if it is apples and oranges, you're using the entire role. When you narrow it down to position (even wing, God forbid when people use "LW") you're narrowing the field of competition for one but not the other. That's not a fair comparison. If you do that for Gaudreau, at least give Lindholm the benefit of ranking him against other LHD. When you do, I'd be pretty surprised if you don't have him in your top 10.

 

[Leafs87]

I think Gaudreau is worth more