Value of: Gaudreau for Lindholm?

[CaptainSexyPants]

I don't even gonna give a response to this, I would love to see the point totals Gaudreau and Kane would have together. Gaudreau is a 23 year old ppg player on a line without a former hart winner. magbe if you take your homer glasses off you would see that Gaudreau has done more with far less and is younger

Ahh. I see. The always popular 'if my player had the advantages of player x I know he would do way more'...rock solid.

Gaudreau isn't younger, btw, Lindholm is; and when you're using age as a selling point, a 22 year old #1 defenseman is significantly more impressive than an allllmost PPG 22.5 year old winger.

I don't know how anyone can say Gaudreau's done 'far more with far less'. Lindholm has made himself the #1 dman on a very good team...look around the league and tell me how many guys under 22 you can say that about. Both guys are still (relatively) unproven, but what Lindholm is doing is very, very rare. An offense-only forward creating a lot of offense as a 22 year old is...yeah. Not as rare.

No homer glasses here, I'm not a fan of either team.

And I get the Gaudreau love affair, he's an exciting kid to watch, but this "Franchise Player" and "OMG it's Gaudreau >> Lindholm AINEC" stuff is utter nonsense. Gaudreau has one more 70+ point season and Flames fans are going to be throwing the word Generational around.
Gretzky...Crosby...Gaudreau...

 

[Beninho*]

Ahh. I see. The always popular 'if my player had the advantages of player x I know he would do way more'...rock solid.

Gaudreau isn't younger, btw, Lindholm is; and when you're using age as a selling point, a 22 year old #1 defenseman is significantly more impressive than an allllmost PPG 22.5 year old winger.

I don't know how anyone can say Gaudreau's done 'far more with far less'. Lindholm has made himself the #1 dman on a very good team...look around the league and tell me how many guys under 22 you can say that about. Both guys are still (relatively) unproven, but what Lindholm is doing is very, very rare. An offense-only forward creating a lot of offense as a 22 year old is...yeah. Not as rare.

No homer glasses here, I'm not a fan of either team.

And I get the Gaudreau love affair, he's an exciting kid to watch, but this "Franchise Player" and "OMG it's Gaudreau >> Lindholm AINEC" stuff is utter nonsense. Gaudreau has one more 70+ point season and Flames fans are going to be throwing the word Generational around.
Gretzky...Crosby...Gaudreau...

I was referring to Panarin as I thought that's who you were talking about. I can't believe you actually believe the non sense your spewing. No GM in the league would do this trade especially in calgarys situation. Hes one of the best offensive players in the league you can't say that about Lindholm as a defender. Believe what you want but Gaudreau is the real deal and will only make you eat your words like he has done to countless posters on these boards.

 

[jeff340]

Value wise its fair but need wise it doesn't work for Calgary unless they then flip one of their other top 3 d-men for a scoring winger. Could see moving Giordano for a really good winger while he still has some value left, as well as freeing up a ton of cap space.

 

[The Noot]

Not sure why either team should go for that tbh

 

[bossram]

Who's a better player today? Small edge Little. 1C calibre in terms of possession and scoring.

Who would I rather have on my team? RNH because of age.

 

[eternalbedhead]

Who's a better player today? Small edge Little. 1C calibre in terms of possession and scoring.

Who would I rather have on my team? RNH because of age.

I believe you have the wrong number


Can we all just stop arguing and agree that this trade makes zero sense for either team?

 

[CaptainSexyPants]

I was referring to Panarin as I thought that's who you were talking about. I can't believe you actually believe the non sense your spewing. No GM in the league would do this trade especially in calgarys situation. Hes one of the best offensive players in the league you can't say that about Lindholm as a defender. Believe what you want but Gaudreau is the real deal and will only make you eat your words like he has done to countless posters on these boards.

Do you not get the flaw here? Because of your bias, you're using qualifiers on Gaudreau and not on Lindholm. Gaudreau is a top "offensive" player. He's one of the best "LWers". Then you go on to describe Lindholm as not being one of the 10 best defensemen? Period? That's asinine. Apply that same logic to Gaudreau.

Is Gaudreau a top ten forward in the league? No, he is not. He isn't better than any of Crosby, McDavid, Kopitar, Kane, Ovechkin, Benn, Toews, Tavares, Seguin or Stamkos. Malkin, Getzlaf, Thornton, Giroux, Tarasenko, Bergeron, Hall, Wheeler, Pavelski are a bunch more who at the very least you can say are subjective.

Kane, who all Flames fans seem to think Gaudreau is a clone of, had 106 points last year. 36% more than your shining star.
Ovechkin just had his 7th season at 50+ goals and you think your boy is crushing this league with a single season at 30. Let's settle down a little bit.

 

[Beninho*]

Do you not get the flaw here? Because of your bias, you're using qualifiers on Gaudreau and not on Lindholm. Gaudreau is a top "offensive" player. He's one of the best "LWers". Then you go on to describe Lindholm as not being one of the 10 best defensemen? Period? That's asinine. Apply that same logic to Gaudreau.

Is Gaudreau a top ten forward in the league? No, he is not. He isn't better than any of Crosby, McDavid, Kopitar, Kane, Ovechkin, Benn, Toews, Tavares, Seguin or Stamkos. Malkin, Getzlaf, Thornton, Giroux, Tarasenko, Bergeron, Hall, Wheeler, Pavelski are a bunch more who at the very least you can say are subjective.

Kane, who all Flames fans seem to think Gaudreau is a clone of, had 106 points last year. 36% more than your shining star.
Ovechkin just had his 7th season at 50+ goals and you think your boy is crushing this league with a single season at 30. Let's settle down a little bit.

He's younger than everyone you mentioned besides McDavid and he's better than the last 3 you mentioned and taresnko is debatable but I would argue he's better, he was better than stamkos last year, he's better than bergeron, stay stuck in the past if you like but Gaudreau is the future and half those guys you mention will be on the decline in 2-3 years. Why would you compare Kane's season while he's in his prime to Gaudreau when Gaudreau hasn't even hit 24 yet? He is one of the best offensive players in the game, no GM trades Gaudreau for Lindholm period. Gaudreau was top 6 in scoring and has been a two time all star. I can't believe I have to spell it out for you.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

He's younger than everyone you mentioned besides McDavid and he's better than the last 3 you mentioned and taresnko is debatable but I would argue he's better, he was better than stamkos last year, he's better than bergeron, stay stuck in the past if you like but Gaudreau is the future and half those guys you mention will be on the decline in 2-3 years. Why would you compare Kane's season while he's in his prime to Gaudreau when Gaudreau hasn't even hit 24 yet? He is one of the best offensive players in the game, no GM trades Gaudreau for Lindholm period. Gaudreau was top 6 in scoring and has been a two time all star. I can't believe I have to spell it out for you.

Soo according to these very detailed standards you are putting around Gaudreau, only players that should be comparable to Lindholms standards are ones in his age bracket? Perfect find me some 20-24 year old dmen that are better then lindholm!

Last I checked most 20-24 year olds don't put up the defensive #'s lindholm puts up, his offensive numbers have plenty of room to improve but simple look at stats and youll see the shooting percentage was abnormaly low when lindholm was on the ice so if it averages out this season you should see a pretty decent increase in lindholms points total.


MAGIC

 

[iloveloov*]

Lindholm's defensive stats are no doubt inflated by being put on the ice with some of strongest two way forwards in the league.

How many 20-24 year olds get Ryan Kesler as the center they're most often on the ice with?

 

[dracom]

Lindholm's defensive stats are no doubt inflated by being put on the ice with some of strongest two way forwards in the league.

How many 20-24 year olds get Ryan Kesler as the center they're most often on the ice with?

Is this what we're doing? Just going to attribute any young players success on older players?

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Lindholm's defensive stats are no doubt inflated by being put on the ice with some of strongest two way forwards in the league.

How many 20-24 year olds get Ryan Kesler as the center they're most often on the ice with?

Just like his offensive #'s are deflated by our teams ****** shooting percentage when lindholm is on the ice?

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Is this what we're doing? Just going to attribute any young players success on older players?

Better then when buffalo fans claimed Manson was carrying the defensive load for lindholm

 

[iloveloov*]

Is this what we're doing? Just going to attribute any young players success on older players?

So you think Lindholm was carrying Kesler defensively

Just like his offensive #'s are deflated by our teams ****** shooting percentage when lindholm is on the ice?

Sure I'll go for that.

Lindholm's defensive ability is overrated and his offensive ability is underrated.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

So you think Lindholm was carrying Kesler defensively



Sure I'll go for that.

Lindholm's defensive ability is overrated and his offensive ability is underrated.

I mean there is statistical proof on his offensive stats being under whelming... what proof is there for his defensive #'s?

 

[dracom]

So you think Lindholm was carrying Kesler defensively

How about a mix of both? Even if Kes(who is overrated according to hfboards btw) was boosting his defensive stats, it's not boosting them enough to take away that the Lindholm pairing was one of the top 3 shutdown pairings in the league.

 

[KaseMeOutside]

Lindholm's defensive stats are no doubt inflated by being put on the ice with some of strongest two way forwards in the league.

How many 20-24 year olds get Ryan Kesler as the center they're most often on the ice with?

the flaw in your logic is the fact that every single Anaheim player had an increase in their possession numbers when they shared the ice with Lindholm.

Also while it's true he got to play plenty with Kesler, you then cannot ignore the fact that Kesler played against the opponents top lines every night, often times starting on the ducks side of the ice, ergo, Lindholm was playing against those same players and doing a good job

 

[xxreact9]

Ahh. I see. The always popular 'if my player had the advantages of player x I know he would do way more'...rock solid.

Gaudreau isn't younger, btw, Lindholm is; and when you're using age as a selling point, a 22 year old #1 defenseman is significantly more impressive than an allllmost PPG 22.5 year old winger.

I don't know how anyone can say Gaudreau's done 'far more with far less'. Lindholm has made himself the #1 dman on a very good team...look around the league and tell me how many guys under 22 you can say that about. Both guys are still (relatively) unproven, but what Lindholm is doing is very, very rare. An offense-only forward creating a lot of offense as a 22 year old is...yeah. Not as rare.

No homer glasses here, I'm not a fan of either team.

And I get the Gaudreau love affair, he's an exciting kid to watch, but this "Franchise Player" and "OMG it's Gaudreau >> Lindholm AINEC" stuff is utter nonsense. Gaudreau has one more 70+ point season and Flames fans are going to be throwing the word Generational around.
Gretzky...Crosby...Gaudreau...

This. He made himself the #1 D on the team who let in the least goals in the NHL while using a timeshare in net (no elite goaltender). Not even sure if that's happened for a 22 yo, like ever.

Hfboards hero's are quick to say "Fowler is very overrated", "Lindholm is very overrated". Please explain the results then. At the end of the day, the Ducks posted the best defensive results in the sport: 1st in GA and top-5 in all shot suppression metrics. You've gotta give credit to someone, unless you believe in magic or think Vatanen is the best defender in history of the game.

 

[xxreact9]

the flaw in your logic is the fact that every single Anaheim player had an increase in their possession numbers when they shared the ice with Lindholm.

Also while it's true he got to play plenty with Kesler, you then cannot ignore the fact that Kesler played against the opponents top lines every night, often times starting on the ducks side of the ice, ergo, Lindholm was playing against those same players and doing a good job

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/...s-lindholm-changing-way-judge-nhl-defencemen/

Here's the article to back this up. Every player on the Ducks, including Kesler, saw a drastic, huge, enormous, undeniably large surge in possession numbers. 50.1 to 59.9 for Kesler, that is really significant. It's impossible to ignore.

Also led his team in possession and the only non-LA player to come in the top-10. The writing is on the wall but no one wants to believe it because Lindholm isn't a household name yet.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

This. He made himself the #1 D on the team who let in the least goals in the NHL while using a timeshare in net (no elite goaltender). Not even sure if that's happened, like ever.

Hfboards hero's are quick to say "Fowler is very overrated", "Lindholm is very overrated". Please explain the results then. At the end of the day, the Ducks posted the best defensive results in the sport. You've gotta give credit to someone, unless you believe in magic or think Vatanen is the best defender in history of the game.

Bieska is the real anchor to our defense... and his side kick stoner

 

[CaptainSexyPants]

He's younger than everyone you mentioned besides McDavid and he's better than the last 3 you mentioned and taresnko is debatable but I would argue he's better, he was better than stamkos last year, he's better than bergeron, stay stuck in the past if you like but Gaudreau is the future and half those guys you mention will be on the decline in 2-3 years. Why would you compare Kane's season while he's in his prime to Gaudreau when Gaudreau hasn't even hit 24 yet? He is one of the best offensive players in the game, no GM trades Gaudreau for Lindholm period. Gaudreau was top 6 in scoring and has been a two time all star. I can't believe I have to spell it out for you.

Good grief.
You've addressed virtually nothing I've said, so you're certainly not 'spelling anything out' for me. Your only responses are "he's, uh, younger...than...lots of other guys", "no GM would make that trade" and "Gaudreau is one of the best at offense". Yeah those are compelling. I'm uh, not sure why I don't see your side of this.

You keep bringing up age like it only applies to Gaudreau. Sure, go ahead and scratch a couple old guys off the list if you like. But you think Gaudreau is the only kid with the potential to get better? Eichel, Matthews, Laine, Puljujarvi, Drouin, Forsberg, Draisaitl, etc.? None of those guys have a shot at being top ten forwards, but Gaudreau is a lock?

Off the first list your only problem is Stamkos. Second list you, personally, would scratch four names. So even from a hometown guy and seemingly one of the biggest Gaudreau supporters in the world, you agree that there are at least fourteen forwards currently better than he is. Yet in your mind he's, like, so far ahead of Lindholm at his position it's ridiculous..? In looking over a top defensemen thread from January of this year, the majority have Lindholm above #25 and I'm pretty sure that improves from Feb-now. So #15 for you, an extreme homer, and as a winger which is by far the easiest position to find good players at...vs. <#25 D for the majority of HFBoard responders, playing arguably the toughest position to find good players at. You really can't see why someone would take Lindholm over Johnny Gretzky?

As for 'why I would compare him to Kane'..
I used Kane as an example because Flames fans do. Constantly, and as a direct comparison.
I used Ovechkin as an example because Flames fans (again, consistently) throw around 'top three LW'.

Don't bring those things up and say that he belongs with the best of the best, only to cry that it's not a fair comparison when you get challenged on the 'Why'. You can't have it both ways; either you're arguing that he's already there, or you're arguing he can potentially get there...which is it?

 

[iloveloov*]

the flaw in your logic is the fact that every single Anaheim player had an increase in their possession numbers when they shared the ice with Lindholm.

Also while it's true he got to play plenty with Kesler, you then cannot ignore the fact that Kesler played against the opponents top lines every night, often times starting on the ducks side of the ice, ergo, Lindholm was playing against those same players and doing a good job

We were talking about HDSCA and now you're shifting to corsi.

Wow I can't believe Kesler and the rest of the forwards had better corsi playing with Lindholm than Bieksa and Stoner. Give him the Norris.

 

[GREMLIN]

Good grief.
You've addressed virtually nothing I've said, so you're certainly not 'spelling anything out' for me. Your only responses are "he's, uh, younger...than...lots of other guys", "no GM would make that trade" and "Gaudreau is one of the best at offense". Yeah those are compelling. I'm uh, not sure why I don't see your side of this.

You keep bringing up age like it only applies to Gaudreau. Sure, go ahead and scratch a couple old guys off the list if you like. But you think Gaudreau is the only kid with the potential to get better? Eichel, Matthews, Laine, Puljujarvi, Drouin, Forsberg, Draisaitl, etc.? None of those guys have a shot at being top ten forwards, but Gaudreau is a lock?

Off the first list your only problem is Stamkos. Second list you, personally, would scratch four names. So even from a hometown guy and seemingly one of the biggest Gaudreau supporters in the world, you agree that there are at least fourteen forwards currently better than he is. Yet in your mind he's, like, so far ahead of Lindholm at his position it's ridiculous..? In looking over a top defensemen thread from January of this year, the majority have Lindholm above #25 and I'm pretty sure that improves from Feb-now. So #15 for you, an extreme homer, and as a winger which is by far the easiest position to find good players at...vs. <#25 D for the majority of HFBoard responders, playing arguably the toughest position to find good players at. You really can't see why someone would take Lindholm over Johnny Gretzky?

As for 'why I would compare him to Kane'..
I used Kane as an example because Flames fans do. Constantly, and as a direct comparison.
I used Ovechkin as an example because Flames fans (again, consistently) throw around 'top three LW'.

Don't bring those things up and say that he belongs with the best of the best, only to cry that it's not a fair comparison when you get challenged on the 'Why'. You can't have it both ways; either you're arguing that he's already there, or you're arguing he can potentially get there...which is it?

Not sure if you actually believe what you're spewing but Gaudreau absolutely is one of the top forwards in the league and is worth a lot more than Lindholm.

I'm not a Flames fan but I'd take Gaudreau before Lindholm and two ANA 1sts, easily.

 

[Sojourn]

We were talking about HDSCA and now you're shifting to corsi.

Wow I can't believe Kesler and the rest of the forwards had better corsi playing with Lindholm than Bieksa and Stoner. Give him the Norris.

Because that's what Anaheim fans have been saying. That he deserves the Norris.

Between that, and the insinuation that Anaheim fans are suggesting that Lindholm carried Kesler(also not something we've said), I find myself asking if you're just going to argue in ridiculous extremes. Did it ever occur to you that Kesler and Lindholm could both be contributing to each other's success? In between your black and white, there is a whole lot of gray that you don't seem to be considering.

 

[Sojourn]

Not sure if you actually believe what you're spewing but Gaudreau absolutely is one of the top forwards in the league and is worth a lot more than Lindholm.

I'm not a Flames fan but I'd take Gaudreau before Lindholm and two ANA 1sts, easily.

You might, but I suspect there isn't a GM in the league who would. The difference between Gaudreau and Lindholm is not two 1sts. It's definitely not more than two 1sts.