Post-Game Talk: Game XIV - Sid the Magnificent

[Buddy Bizarre]

It wouldn't have worked before this season, as we didn't have the mobile defense necessary to make it work.

You don't need mobile defensemen to make this work. You need F's who aren't as greedy and pushing up en masse

This structure is less about the Dmen and more about the F alignments in the Ozone and NZ

 

[LOGiK]

The two oldest clubs in the league doing the same exact start to the season
Capitals and Penguins started with a cranky grouchy uncompetitive pace... and have got them old bones moving again
For now.

Hopefully we keep the streak going Thursday.

Yeah, in part because one loss will most likely snowball into snides (for key pieces) after a long winning streak...

 

[Andy99]

The two oldest clubs in the league doing the same exact start to the season
Capitals and Penguins started with a cranky grouchy uncompetitive pace... and have got them old bones moving again
For now.


Yeah, in part because one loss will most likely snowball into snides (for key pieces) after a long winning streak...

Commitment to defense first and foremost…the Pens can’t keep up with the Devils with or without Hughes…the NZ trap better be back in place for Thursday’s game lol

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I can't believe I am saying this, but because Kris Letang has been making good decisions and generally very responsible defensively.

Ok so he's been stripped of all credit.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Graves had a crappy game yesterday, but I genuinely believe people here insist he sucks because this board needs a whipping boy, so any sort of player struggling gets amplified dramatically.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Commitment to defense first and foremost…the Pens can’t keep up with the Devils with or without Hughes…the NZ trap better be back in place for Thursday’s game lol

Their defense is absolute garbage this year. Not sure sitting back and going into a shell is the way.
Better to go for the throat and give them a hit to their morale imo.

 

[OtherThingsILike]

You don't need mobile defensemen to make this work. You need F's who aren't as greedy and pushing up en masse

This structure is less about the Dmen and more about the F alignments in the Ozone and NZ

Yes, the structure is about the forwards being less greedy, but the reason it works is because it forces the other team to try to dump the puck in instead of skating it in. The defense then needs to retrieve the puck and send it back the other way. If the defense is not mobile enough to retrieve the puck, the dumping team can simply get to it first. Dump and chase can work when the dumping team is fast enough, so it is necessary for the defending team to be mobile enough to get to the pucks first.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

Ok if Graves is doing everything wrong and is a trash defenseman, like the board says, then why doesn't he concede more goals against?
Why is the PK top 10 right now? Why is the top pairing coming out with much better results than last year, to this stage?
Why was he a +34 last year for New Jersey (against top competition), their stingiest PK'er, and has been a +40 before in Colorado?

Aren't these things a little difficult to achieve for terrible defensemen? Is the consensus that he's the luckiest D-man in the league? Or are we saying he's consistently getting carried his whole career by his partners and goalies?

I will definitely say I am not a fan of using +/- behind really good teams to point to o look this guy is a + player HOWever

I definitelt agree that people are complaining because he makes a few mistakes a game. He got paid 4.5 million. Dumo at a lower salary cap got paid 4 million. 4.5 has less buying power.

now the + side is Graves continues to make solid plays and is helping us win games instead of hurting us as much.

graves is a +

Graves had a crappy game yesterday, but I genuinely believe people here insist he sucks because this board needs a whipping boy, so any sort of player struggling gets amplified dramatically.

We always need a couple.

 

[Andy99]

Their defense is absolute garbage this year. Not sure sitting back and going into a shell is the way.
Better to go for the throat and give them a hit to their morale imo.

They have too much speed, even with their defense being mediocre…there will be ton of chances in front of Jarry, and a lot of puck possession, unless they play defensively structured

 

[Jesse]

You don't need mobile defensemen to make this work. You need F's who aren't as greedy and pushing up en masse

This structure is less about the Dmen and more about the F alignments in the Ozone and NZ

Say it louder, from the top of the mountain.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Yes, the structure is about the forwards being less greedy, but the reason it works is because it forces the other team to try to dump the puck in instead of skating it in. The defense then needs to retrieve the puck and send it back the other way. If the defense is not mobile enough to retrieve the puck, the dumping team can simply get to it first. Dump and chase can work when the dumping team is fast enough, so it is necessary for the defending team to be mobile enough to get to the pucks first.

Fair point. But I feel this strategy could still work with less-mobile Dmen. May not be AS effective, but still able to slow teams down by defending in layers.

 

[Jesse]

Graves had a crappy game yesterday, but I genuinely believe people here insist he sucks because this board needs a whipping boy, so any sort of player struggling gets amplified dramatically.

I def think some if not all of it is extreme. He isn't physical but survives without that. He's a good skater. He pumps up shot volume, although is individually maddening with his own shot selection. He is fine defensively but prone to going on these long spiritual journeys where he tails someone around unnecessarily, but that's not super common. I just think "fine" is the perfect word for him. He is so much better than Dumoulin was in that spot.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I will definitely say I am not a fan of using +/- behind really good teams to point to o look this guy is a + player HOWever

I definitelt agree that people are complaining because he makes a few mistakes a game. He got paid 4.5 million. Dumo at a lower salary cap got paid 4 million. 4.5 has less buying power.

now the + side is Graves continues to make solid plays and is helping us win games instead of hurting us as much.

graves is a +

If the mistakes don't lead to goals against then they're whatever. His job, first and foremost, is not to concede. He's a defensive defenseman.
And he's clearly playing a brand of hockey that is allowing Letang to find his defensive form again.
Also, I see him getting no credit for his solid PK work, which is currently ranked 10th in the league.

They have too much speed, even with their defense being mediocre…there will be ton of chances in front of Jarry, and a lot of puck possession, unless they play defensively structured

It's not mediocre though. It's 30th.
They are rather vulnerable atm. They lost Graves and Severson. They only allocated 21M to the blue line, so that they can have Meier.
Def. one of the best Forward groups in the league, but I imagine they're gonna have a hard time beating contenders in the playoffs like this.

 

[Jesse]

Fair point. But I feel this strategy could still work with less-mobile Dmen. May not be AS effective, but still able to slow teams down by defending in layers.

It depends also on where you're forcing the dump. The closer to the red you can make that happen, the less runway the opposing team has to catch even your slowest defensemen.

That's why the most important element of this change is effective puck side pressure. It forces that dump in to happen a few feet sooner than the other team would prefer, giving your D a longer ramp to safe retrieval.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I def think some if not all of it is extreme. He isn't physical but survives without that. He's a good skater. He pumps up shot volume, although is individually maddening with his own shot selection. He is fine defensively but prone to going on these long spiritual journeys where he tails someone around unnecessarily, but that's not super common. I just think "fine" is the perfect word for him. He is so much better than Dumoulin was in that spot.

I agree 100%, plus it really seems like Letang has done a great job at stabilizing his game and accepting his new role as more of a shutdown/2-way defenseman compared to what he was in the past.

I think Pettersson-Karlsson has been better this year, but their entire top-4 has been good. The concerns I have with the defense are on the bottom pair.

 

[OtherThingsILike]

Fair point. But I feel this strategy could still work with less-mobile Dmen. May not be AS effective, but still able to slow teams down by defending in layers.

I agree that they wouldn't need to be as mobile as the ones we have now. I don't think it would work with, say, last year's Brian Dumoulin.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Graves had a crappy game yesterday, but I genuinely believe people here insist he sucks because this board needs a whipping boy, so any sort of player struggling gets amplified dramatically.

Here's perhaps a bit of self awareness: maybe I'm guilty of having unrealistic expectations?
I knew little about Graves except that he was a big dude. People were correctly stating that he doesn't use size from a physical standpoint, but positionally. Scouting report also said he is comfortable carrying and moving the puck. I took that to mean we were getting a Dumo with a bit more puck poise.

What I see is a guy who gets lost too often...kinda like POJ. Dumo was the complete opposite of that.
So perhaps someone can share what to expect from him?

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I agree 100%, plus it really seems like Letang has done a great job at stabilizing his game and accepting his new role as more of a shutdown/2-way defenseman compared to what he was in the past.

I think Pettersson-Karlsson has been better this year, but their entire top-4 has been good. The concerns I have with the defense are on the bottom pair.

Don't think it's a stretch to call Petts + EK wonderful, to this point.
That's a high bar for the 1st pairing to match.

 

[BusinessGoose]

I hope they're both speaking Swedish to each other out there

 

[OtherThingsILike]

I hope they're both speaking Swedish to each other out there

In an interview before the season started, Karlsson said that Pettersson does like to use Swedish.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Here's perhaps a bit of self awareness: maybe I'm guilty of having unrealistic expectations?
I knew little about Graves except that he was a big dude. People were correctly stating that he doesn't use size from a physical standpoint, but positionally. Scouting report also said he is comfortable carrying and moving the puck. I took that to mean we were getting a Dumo with a bit more puck poise.

What I see is a guy who gets lost too often...kinda like POJ. Dumo was the complete opposite of that.
So perhaps someone can share what to expect from him?

All he has to do is:
A) End up a big net positive on the ice for the year vs top competition
B) Bring the best out of Letang defensively
C) Help keep the PK end up in the top half of the league

So far he's pacing well in all three of those regards. And imo, it doesn't matter how he goes about accomplishing those things, so long as he does.

If our top pairing is like a +25 in April or whatever, I'll guarantee you we'll have qualified for the playoffs. It's as simple as that.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Here's perhaps a bit of self awareness: maybe I'm guilty of having unrealistic expectations?
I knew little about Graves except that he was a big dude. People were correctly stating that he doesn't use size from a physical standpoint, but positionally. Scouting report also said he is comfortable carrying and moving the puck. I took that to mean we were getting a Dumo with a bit more puck poise.

What I see is a guy who gets lost too often...kinda like POJ. Dumo was the complete opposite of that.
So perhaps someone can share what to expect from him?

I think Graves would have cost a lot more money to sign if that was the case.

He has the same major flaw that Letang has: he's a low IQ player. That's why he sometimes has these brainfarts that cause him to get lost, just like POJ. He's a toolsy but low IQ player, he's an erratic DFD that relies on his physical traits to play defense.

I think Letang and Graves will sometimes have issues due to having that same low hockey IQ issue, but the pair overall has been good this year. Not Pettersson-Karlsson good but definitely good.

 

[3ladesof5teel]

The ebs an flow of the hockey season so many don't understand.

We suck and are terrible

We are good again

This team is terrible, at least I'll get to watch EK for the final ride into the sunset with our core.

We are awesome look out, lord Stanley here we come.

14 games into the season, y'all are great

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

I think Graves would have cost a lot more money to sign if that was the case.

He has the same major flaw that Letang has: he's a low IQ player. That's why he sometimes has these brainfarts that cause him to get lost, just like POJ. He's a toolsy but low IQ player, he's an erratic DFD that relies on his physical traits to play defense.

I think Letang and Graves will sometimes have issues due to having that same low hockey IQ issue, but the pair overall has been good this year. Not Pettersson-Karlsson good but definitely good.

Thanks for the detailed response

 

[3ladesof5teel]

Here's perhaps a bit of self awareness: maybe I'm guilty of having unrealistic expectations?
I knew little about Graves except that he was a big dude. People were correctly stating that he doesn't use size from a physical standpoint, but positionally. Scouting report also said he is comfortable carrying and moving the puck. I took that to mean we were getting a Dumo with a bit more puck poise.

What I see is a guy who gets lost too often...kinda like POJ. Dumo was the complete opposite of that.
So perhaps someone can share what to expect from him?

Yes expectations were definitely a little high for him. He's made those blunders all throughout his career. It's not to say he won't make less of them as he continues to get comfortable in the system. It takes time with Dmen when switching teams/systems. Especially when you are paired up with someone like Letang.

If he was "that" good NJ wouldn't have let him go. He's doing the same thing he has in NJ.

I just wish we had someone to clear our net a little better. Seeing our Dmen let people camp up front leads and has led to all kinds of issues the last few years.