Post-Game Talk: Game XIV - Sid the Magnificent

[Empoleon8771]

The point is Graves has been happily traded from the two teams that know how to read past the paper stats better than anyone else.

Karlsson has been traded the same amount of times Graves has, does he suck too?

Smith has been passed around by numerous teams, including Florida literally paying Vegas to take both him and Marchessault. Does he suck?

Also I like how it's conveniently not being mentioned that the Avs traded Graves because of the Kraken expansion draft, which was noted multiple times in the Graves trade thread to New Jersey.

I also like how this same logic regarding Graves can be applied literally exactly to Jared McCann, since a large part of both Penguins fans and Panthers fans were happy to see him go (Penguins fans because of his shit playoff performances, Panthers fans because he wasn't progressing well). But he's now a 40 goal scorer with Seattle.

 

[66-30-33]

I'm fine with Graves.

 

[3ladesof5teel]

I think it's perfectly ok to say that Graves will have his mental lapses and am not thrilled with the Graves/Letang pairing as a whole because I don't feel their games are an ideal mesh.

Just because I say that doesn't mean I hate Graves or think he's horrible. You don't have to draw a line in the sand.

I just think expectations need to be tempered. He is who he is. He can absolutely get better as well as he gets more acclimated to the system.

I am in no way making him a "whipping boy". I don't even wanna ride that train because over half the time the whipping boy crew is wrong

 

[AuroraBorealis]

It's broken logic to say that because his gaffes have not represented negative outcomes so far -> his gaffes are unimportant. So if you won't acknowledge Graves to this point in any light other than a statistical reference, it's pointless to discuss.

Folks saying he had a rough game are totally justified in doing so. We're talking to one another, not trying to convince a computer that his 1s and 0s were wrong when they were not. He looked like shit last night, Emp. Is what it is. Certainly hope he rounds out. Is he better than Dumo last year? Sure. Does he look like a guy everyone should be excited is signed here for the long term? Not yet. Not even close. Not like he's 22-24 years old either.

Yes, Danforth beats him to the inside. But at this point he's still within Graves' reach, in a relatively non-threatening position, near the boards.
This goal gets scored because Letang hesitated in pressuring Danforth, allowing him to get a pass through. Letang could have also faded away to the middle and protected the house, and allowed Graves to pressure Danforth from behind with his stick.

So I don't really blame this goal on Graves that much. This was still well within the pairing's ability to negate.

Anyways, that's the net result from Graves' horrific game. 1 goal against, which was only marginally his fault. The PK went 4/4 on the night.
If that's one of his low points on the season, I'll take that all day.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think it's perfectly ok to say that Graves will have his mental lapses and am not thrilled with the Graves/Letang pairing as a whole because I don't feel their games are an ideal mesh.

Just because I say that doesn't mean I hate Graves or think he's horrible. You don't have to draw a line in the sand.

I just think expectations need to be tempered. He is who he is. He can absolutely get better as well as he gets more acclimated to the system.

I am in no way making him a "whipping boy". I don't even wanna ride that train because over half the time the whipping boy crew is wrong

I don't think your comments on Graves are unreasonable or something I was referring to.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

He was a -1 in 10 games last year, I'm not really sure how that's "killing" a team in the playoffs.

Not only that, but he was +5 in 10 games in 2021 and +9 in 15 games in 2020 with the Avs.



So both of the other teams where he was on their 2nd pair were wrong and Graves actually sucks? Yeah, I doubt that.

I know people fairly shit on +/-, but the dude is a career +90 in 316 games. How is that a problem in your top-4?

They were slaughtered in pure GF/GA

Tbf to the dude, he achieved good playoff results in Colorado, and he wouldn't have killed NJ if the actual goals had followed expected goals. And yeah, those things can be misleading, but probably not so misleading that he couldn't have expected better from his 52 xGF% than a 1-7 on the scoresheet. The GA was roughly as expected - and he had a good relative xGA - but the GF was a big fat mess. The team shot at 1.56% with him on ice, that's nuts. Yeah bad breakouts can really hurt goalscoring, but not that much!

Not that I'm super confident in him, but since you prompted me to look at his results, I'm a bit more chipper about his possible role than I was.

Look at the WOWY for xGF (especially with his most typical teammates he shared TOI with Hischier/Bratt/Marino)

Interesting narrative.
In games 3 and 4 vs Carolina, when Graves was absent, the Devils conceded 10 goals.

Also Graves was a +3 in game 7 vs the Rangers.

Stats- 1 GF, 7 GA at 5v5.

Anecdotally- Devils fans said he was brutal.

This year - dude is an absolute sketch ball around his own net.

Too much smoke for me to trust him to play against top competition right now. I like him more as a 5D that can play minutes in case of injury.

 

[tom_servo]

This little 5 game win streak is good and all, but we are still 8-6-0, which is pedestrian. All the streak did was unf*** us from the hideous first 9 games.

The time to actually move in the standings is NOW - the Pens cannot rest on their laurels or they'll be back at 0.500.

Especially since now they're starting to play in division. It's nice to work out some bugs against the western teams.

 

[Gurglesons]

Karlsson has been traded the same amount of times Graves has, does he suck too?

Smith has been passed around by numerous teams, including Florida literally paying Vegas to take both him and Marchessault. Does he suck?

Also I like how it's conveniently not being mentioned that the Avs traded Graves because of the Kraken expansion draft, which was noted multiple times in the Graves trade thread to New Jersey.

I also like how this same logic regarding Graves can be applied literally exactly to Jared McCann, since a large part of both Penguins fans and Panthers fans were happy to see him go (Penguins fans because of his shit playoff performances, Panthers fans because he wasn't progressing well). But he's now a 40 goal scorer with Seattle.

I mean, I get it Empo. Graves is new and you need to defend him. Then in six months he’ll be bad when it’s unavoidable to say otherwise.

 

[3ladesof5teel]

I don't think your comments on Graves are unreasonable or something I was referring to.

I didn't think you were I was just generalizing my thoughts on Graves.

I think many here who are not happy with him had higher expectations with him and maybe that's where some of this is coming from. I think he's just an ok #4, wont wow you or anything but needs a good partner to compliment him and bring out his best. I wouldn't want to rely on him eating heavy minutes in the playoffs but that's just me. He seems a little soft for my liking around the net but a lot of our guys are.

Hell I wanted Petts gone years ago but now that he has a partner that I feel both their games can compliment each other's it looks like we have a winner with the Swede connection.

 

[Empoleon8771]

EK65 has been traded twice.

And so was Graves. He was traded once from NYR to COL and once from COL to NJD.

I mean, I get it Empo. Graves is new and you need to defend him.

Me calling out your stupid logic is irrelevant of the player being discussed.

Graves has his issues and you can actually make coherent arguments to describe them. Saying "fans on HFBoards were happy to see him go" as an argument isn't a coherent argument, especially because you can pull plenty of examples of HFBoards being stupid.

Your logic for why Graves is a nothing piece applies 100% to Jared McCann, who you constantly bitch about Sullivan misusing.

 

[Gurglesons]

And so was Graves. He was traded once from NYR to COL and once from COL to NJD.



Me calling out your stupid logic is irrelevant of the player being discussed.

Graves has his issues and you can actually make coherent arguments to describe them. Saying "fans on HFBoards were happy to see him go" as an argument isn't a coherent argument, especially because you can pull plenty of examples of HFBoards being stupid.

Your logic for why Graves is a nothing piece applies 100% to Jared McCann, who you constantly bitch about Sullivan misusing.

I’ve watched Graves for years. He is a defensive liability who is best suited for 3rd pairing minutes.

Jack Johnson is a light beer Kris Letang.

Granlund DOC whoever shades of HBK.

Andreas Johnsson is going to fight for a top six role.

I know your script.

 

[Josey Wales]

I’ve watched Graves for years. He is a defensive liability who is best suited for 3rd pairing minutes.

Jack Johnson is a light beer Kris Letang.

Granlund DOC whoever shades of HBK.

Andreas Johnsson is going to fight for a top six role.

I know your script.

Yes Yes Yes You have watched every player for their Whole career

 

[Empoleon8771]

I like how you have to resort to the same dumb one liners like "I've watched him" or "here is something stupid you said in the past" in any discussion.

I don't even know why I entertain this anymore. I've thrown people on ignore for way less.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

This little 5 game win streak is good and all, but we are still 8-6-0, which is pedestrian. All the streak did was unf*** us from the hideous first 9 games.

The time to actually move in the standings is NOW - the Pens cannot rest on their laurels or they'll be back at 0.500.

That's asking a lot. These next few weeks are gonna be a bitch. This might be the hardest stretch of the season, in terms of opponent quality.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

I don’t think Graves completely sucks btw- I just don’t understand why we need to be the team that gives him the biggest role of his career, both at 5v5 and overall.

It’s bound to backfire in the postseason against the top lines of the best teams in the league IMO. Let him be a OZ/NZ focused 5D that helps the 3rd pair clean up non-58/65 minutes.

 

[Peat]

Look at the WOWY for xGF (especially with his most typical teammates he shared TOI with Hischier/Bratt/Marino)

...
Too much smoke for me to trust him to play against top competition right now. I like him more as a 5D that can play minutes in case of injury.

Hischier's xGF is higher with Graves than not, and his GF% drops from 50 to 25 when moved away from Graves. Ditto Bratt. That's his most common forward line.

Yeah, the stats show Hischier is popping up Graves more than Graves is propping up Hischier, but that's fine. We don't need him to be the main man. We need him to not crap himself.

And when he was with Colorado, the numbers of Makar/MacKinnon etc.etc. don't really shift for being away from him. Again, fine.

He dragged on Marino and Hughes by WOWY, but Hughes should have still been break even with him by xGF. It's not some Dumo or JJ special fall.

I know NJD fans didn't like his game in the playoffs and I'm not going to dismiss that, but his numbers look like if he's killing you, he's got accomplices.

And I'd agree on liking him more as that Ian Cole 5D... but given what guys cost, and given how many true top 4D there are, I'm not mad about it and I think the results show he can hang. He'd better be able to hang, as it's him or him really...

I don’t think Graves completely sucks btw- I just don’t understand why we need to be the team that gives him the biggest role of his career, both at 5v5 and overall.

It’s bound to backfire in the postseason against the top lines of the best teams in the league IMO. Let him be a OZ/NZ focused 5D that helps the 3rd pair clean up non-58/65 minutes.

Because there weren't better options.

 

[Gurglesons]

Yes Yes Yes You have watched every player for their Whole career

I mean, Graves just isn’t it. We can pretend he is, but this was said from day one.

I think his contract will be fine next year and he can fit a 3rd pairing role.

Hischier's xGF is higher with Graves than not, and his GF% drops from 50 to 25 when moved away from Graves. Ditto Bratt. That's his most common forward line.

Yeah, the stats show Hischier is popping up Graves more than Graves is propping up Hischier, but that's fine. We don't need him to be the main man. We need him to not crap himself.

And when he was with Colorado, the numbers of Makar/MacKinnon etc.etc. don't really shift for being away from him. Again, fine.

He dragged on Marino and Hughes by WOWY, but Hughes should have still been break even with him by xGF. It's not some Dumo or JJ special fall.

I know NJD fans didn't like his game in the playoffs and I'm not going to dismiss that, but his numbers look like if he's killing you, he's got accomplices.

And I'd agree on liking him more as that Ian Cole 5D... but given what guys cost, and given how many true top 4D there are, I'm not mad about it and I think the results show he can hang. He'd better be able to hang, as it's him or him really...

Ferraro would be an interesting add for our LHD side.

Really the only one given our cap and what’s available. Forbort or Dillon seem like they would be available but same issue as Graves.

 

[3ladesof5teel]

I’ve watched Graves for years. He is a defensive liability who is best suited for 3rd pairing minutes.

Jack Johnson is a light beer Kris Letang.

Granlund DOC whoever shades of HBK.

Andreas Johnsson is going to fight for a top six role.

I know your script.

To be fair I was perfectly fine with the team bringing in Johnsson and giving him a look to see if he overcame his injuries. He had some success in the league.

Those are the kind of moves we needed to look at being so much up against the cap, even if they didn't work out it's low risk high reward.

Our GM wasn't sitting on his hands. He was active.

BTW I know it's early but Tomas Tater has been awfully mid so far. I really don't think he was as big of a miss as many thought. He's been playing up and down that lineup with talent and looking pretty pedestrian.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Hischier's xGF is higher with Graves than not, and his GF% drops from 50 to 25 when moved away from Graves. Ditto Bratt. That's his most common forward line.

Yeah, the stats show Hischier is popping up Graves more than Graves is propping up Hischier, but that's fine. We don't need him to be the main man. We need him to not crap himself.

Was referring to the postseason where he was a real drag on Hischier and Bratt.

I think he’s a net neutral for now- very worried about leaning on him in coverage, to evade a forecheck vs the Panarin line, the Hughes line, Aho line, Kucherov line, Matthews line… etc. shift after shift over the course of a series. Because that’s how Letang is being used right now.

I like his game in the neutral zone and offensive zone. But he needs to be hidden IMO.

Also my whole take on this is me eating crow— I liked the signing.

 

[Gurglesons]

To be fair I was perfectly fine with the team bringing in Johnsson and giving him a look to see if he overcame his injuries. He had some success in the league.

Those are the kind of moves we needed to look at being so much up against the cap, even if they didn't work out it's low risk high reward.

Our GM wasn't sitting on his hands. He was active.

BTW I know it's early but Tomas Tater has been awfully mid so far. I really don't think he was as big of a miss as many thought. He's been playing up and down that lineup with talent and looking pretty pedestrian.

Tatar. Another Empo favorite no?

I have no problem with us making any of these moves. I’d just rather be realistic in our analysis of players versus deferring to stats for everything.

Graves has not been good with us and has been defensively questionable for years. We can find a role for him on this team, but expecting him to play big minutes IMO is not it.

PK specialist. 5th in 5v5 ice time.

 

[3ladesof5teel]

I don’t think Graves completely sucks btw- I just don’t understand why we need to be the team that gives him the biggest role of his career, both at 5v5 and overall.

It’s bound to backfire in the postseason against the top lines of the best teams in the league IMO. Let him be a OZ/NZ focused 5D that helps the 3rd pair clean up non-58/65 minutes.

Ideally he's your 3rd pair guy and that's where I would like to see a guy in the Tanev mold as Letangs partner.

 

[Empoleon8771]

To be fair I was perfectly fine with the team bringing in Johnsson and giving him a look to see if he overcame his injuries. He had some success in the league.

That's exactly what Hinostroza was as well and they're really benefitting from him being in their bottom-6. Sometimes the gambles work and sometimes they don't.

It's hilarious that Gurgs is bringing up Johnsson here as if he hasn't literally said "Hinostroza is just Jeff Carter" multiple times on here.

 

[3ladesof5teel]

Tatar. Another Empo favorite no?

I have no problem with us making any of these moves. I’d just rather be realistic in our analysis of players versus deferring to stats for everything.

Graves has not been good with us and has been defensively questionable for years. We can find a role for him on this team, but expecting him to play big minutes IMO is not it.

PK specialist. 5th in 5v5 ice time.

I don't recall. I think he was a board favorite who would likely be one of the bigger "whipping boys"

And yes if/when we make the playoffs( I believe we do)I don't feel comfortable with him eating big minutes or protecting the net. Solid #5 big hesitation at #4 as Letangs partner

 

[Coastal Kev]

I have grown accustomed to this team peaking in Nov - late Dec/Jan. All this winning does is cement zero changes moving forward with either the roster or staff.

It also sets up inevitable slide come Feb/March that ends with at best, backing into the playoffs.

Puus & Poulin should have been up early, instead it seems the organization is hellbent on destroying any prospect with a pulse (HI JD)... maybe as not to threaten the happiness in the room. Now injured....and both probably will be cast off by seasons end.

I truly believe that this is fraud being perpetrated by the organization. Lazy front of office not willing to make any meaningful changes and a locker-room filled with vets that have long NMC contracts.

I can't believe so many have been duped into giving this group a decade long swan song. I truly don't watch the games anymore, there's no point. They have become background music. Every win they get over the next 60 days only cements the status quo deeper, leading to a HUGE contract extension for Jake that will be too much for too long (including a shiny NMC).

What ownership and the fun bunch doesn't comprehend is the inevitable vitriol that will come once the public/media finally catches on to their ruse.

 

[Gurglesons]

I don't recall. I think he was a board favorite who would likely be one of the bigger "whipping boys"

Tatar would have been a decent add for us.

But there is a reason he didn’t get signed until forever.

I have grown accustomed to this team peaking in Nov - late Dec/Jan. All this winning does is cement zero changes moving forward with either the roster or staff.

It also sets up inevitable slide come Feb/March that ends with at best, backing into the playoffs.

Puus & Poulin should have been up early, instead it seems the organization is hellbent on destroying any prospect with a pulse (HI JD)... maybe as not to threaten the happiness in the room. Now injured....and both probably will be cast off by seasons end.

I truly believe that this is fraud being perpetrated by the organization. Lazy front of office not willing to make any meaningful changes and a locker-room filled with vets that have long NMC contracts.

I can't believe so many have been duped into giving this group a decade long swan song. I truly don't watch the games anymore, there's no point. They have become background music. Every win they get over the next 60 days only cements the status quo deeper, leading to a HUGE contract extension for Jake that will be too much for too long (including a shiny NMC).

What ownership and the fun bunch don't comprehend is the inevitable vitriol that come once the public/media finally catches on to their ruse.

Sounds like Poulin may have gotten called up?