[Friedman] Pittsburgh hires Kyle Dubas as President of Hockey Operations

[Empoleon8771]

No, he gets criticized for repeatedly wasting assets with no results.

Your last paragraph, and the most common excuse he gets, is that "he build a team who failed, it's not his fault"... 1 year can be an accident, multiples years in a row is pattern.

And if those bad results are due to his top players consistently shitting the bed, how is that his fault?

Unless you're going to advocate for Dubas trading one of the core 4, he's not responsible for their failures. Dubas' job was to build as strong of a team around the core 4 as he could.

 

[Suntouchable13]

And if those bad results are due to his top players consistently shitting the bed, how is that his fault?

Unless you're going to advocate for Dubas trading one of the core 4, he's not responsible for their failures. Dubas' job was to build as strong of a team around the core 4 as he could.

Yes, it’s his responsibility because he stuck with them with minimal results. 5 playoff wins is the most they ever got for him. Maybe shake things up?

 

[Josey Wales]

Poor guy, it's not his fault that he build a team who fails in the playoffs year after year....And probably the fact that he replaced all grit with skill, and build a soft team had no impact on their playoffs performance....

Bunting is skill & soft?

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yes, it’s his responsibility because he stuck with them with minimal results. 5 playoff wins is the most they ever got for him. Maybe shake things up?

So do you think that Dubas should have traded one or multiple of Matthews, Marner or Nylander then? Do you want Treliving to do that now that he's the new Leafs GM?

Go on record saying "I want them to trade one of Matthews, Marner or Nylander" and I'll concede your point on Dubas.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

So is the team built by the fans? Why is Dubas earning 40M dollars if the metric to judge Dubas' success is if the fans liked the move at the time?

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Your problem is you're comparing Dubas to an HfBoards poster. He's a GM, he is judged on results, not HfBoards polls - as hard as that is to fathom.

You're completely missing my point if you keep repeating these particular type of arguments.

My point isn't that I'm blaming the fans or that I'm even defending Dubas. My point is it's hilarious to see Leaf fans acting like all of Dubas' big signings were obvious laughable mistakes when at the time and for years after those signings, Leaf fans DEFENDED them and loved them. It's only now that Dubas is gone that suddenly Leaf fans are ridiculing his signings.

Where was this criticism of him immediately after Tavares signed? Where was this criticism of him after Matthews and Marner signed? The vast majority of Leaf fans were hailing all three signings as major victories for the Leafs and applauding Dubas for them. It's only *NOW* that Leaf fans are critical of them, which makes your fanbase just seem like jilted lovers for an ex that dumped you and moved on.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Still waiting for any Leafs fan that says "Dubas is to blame for not shaking up the core" to come in here and flat out say "I want Treliving to trade one of the core players".

 

[Divine]

You're completely missing my point if you keep repeating these particular type of arguments.

My point isn't that I'm blaming the fans or that I'm even defending Dubas. My point is it's hilarious to see Leaf fans acting like all of Dubas' big signings were obvious laughable mistakes when at the time and for years after those signings, Leaf fans DEFENDED them and loved them. It's only now that Dubas is gone that suddenly Leaf fans are ridiculing his signings.

Where was this criticism of him immediately after Tavares signed? Where was this criticism of him after Matthews and Marner signed? The vast majority of Leaf fans were hailing all three signings as major victories for the Leafs and applauding Dubas for them. It's only *NOW* that Leaf fans are critical of them, which makes your fanbase just seem like jilted lovers for an ex that dumped you and moved on.

You're missing your own point.

It's clear from your post that fans are fans. You are missing that point. Most fans are not watching every game, let alone other teams. They simply cheer their team and trust the management - which is what the fans were doing.

It's not even shocking, that is exactly what you expect from fans. It wasn't the fans that were wrong, it was Dubas.

Now, fans realize Dubas is wrong and blame him... and you're turning around and blaming the fans for being happy their GM made a move at a time. It makes no sense.

Fans do not get paid millions of dollars or invest the kind of time and money or have the access a GM has. The fans can simply support the team or boycott the team - those are their options. What they believe has no bearing on the GM.

Your point is basically: "Fans thought Dubas was doing a good job when he wasn't and now they have no right to complain!"

Okay? Are they going to fire the fans or Dubas?

The fans do not invest as much time into the sports as you seem to think. Most fans watch a few games a year, of course they'll be happy their million dollar GM made a big move.

Basically, you think it's funny the average fan who watches 10 games a year was happy that Tavares was signed... and now they have no right to criticize Dubas for his failures because they thought Dubas made the right move at the time.

It's the weirdest argument I've ever seen.

 

[FrozenJagrt]

Still waiting for any Leafs fan that says "Dubas is to blame for not shaking up the core" to come in here and flat out say "I want Treliving to trade one of the core players".

I want Treliving to trade Nylander. I don't blame Dubas necessarily but a change needs to happen and Nylander is the odd man out. He will likely get a larger raise than Matthews or Marner and Tavares isn't getting moved without retention.

 

[Josey Wales]

I want Treliving to trade Nylander. I don't blame Dubas necessarily but a change needs to happen and Nylander is the odd man out. He will likely get a larger raise than Matthews or Marner and Tavares isn't getting moved without retention.

PSSSSSSSSST Shanahan is the boss

 

[Divine]

Still waiting for any Leafs fan that says "Dubas is to blame for not shaking up the core" to come in here and flat out say "I want Treliving to trade one of the core players".

I want Treliving to win a Cup.

I don't care if he trades the core or doesn't.

Dubas crippled the team by overpaying the core. Maybe Treliving doesn't need to move them, maybe he does. As long as he wins a Cup, no one cares what he does.

The problem isn't that Dubas didn't break up the core, it's that he didn't break up the core and failed completely. One series win in 5 years coming to a team who went 7 games in a row 2x prior to him joining and entering their prime is a complete failure.

You could argue this core could have won if Dubas surrounded them with different players as much a you can argue the core needs to be split up.

One thing is for sure, the core leads the team in scoring every playoffs... but it's never enough because the players surrounding them aren't good enough either. Whether that means breaking up the core or the wrong supplemental players - that's the GM's job to realize.

Even last year the Leafs core outscored Tampa's, but Tampa went to the finals. Nick Paul scored both goals in Game 7. Maybe Dubas didn't surround the core with good enough players.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I want Treliving to win a Cup.

I don't care if he trades the core or doesn't.

Dubas crippled the team by overpaying the core. Maybe Treliving doesn't need to move them, maybe he does. As long as he wins a Cup, no one cares what he does.

The problem isn't that Dubas didn't break up the core, it's that he didn't break up the core and failed completely. One series win in 5 years coming to a team who went 7 games in a row 2x prior to him joining and entering their prime is a complete failure.

You could argue this core could have won if Dubas surrounded them with different players as much a you can argue the core needs to be split up.

Okay so you're still criticizing Dubas for not breaking up the core while refusing to say that Treliving should break up the core.

One thing is for sure, the core leads the team in scoring every playoffs... but it's never enough because the players surrounding them aren't good enough either. Whether that means breaking up the core or the wrong supplemental players - that's the GM's job to realize.

Even last year the Leafs core outscored Tampa's, but Tampa went to the finals. Nick Paul scored both goals in Game 7. Maybe Dubas didn't surround the core with good enough players.

This is laughable with the stats Matthews, Marner and Tavares have put up in elimination games.

Matthews and Marner are making over $10 million a year and produce like 55 point players in elimination games.

 

[Divine]

Okay so you're still criticizing Dubas for not breaking up the core while refusing to say that Treliving should break up the core.

Did you even read my post?

I said the Leafs core outscored Tampa's, yet Tampa went to the Finals last season and the Leafs are out in the 1st round.

Is that a problem with the core or secondary scoring?

Some people can say, well the Leafs core needs to be 3x better than Tampa's for them to win, and if they're only better it's not good enough.

Others can argue, well the secondary scoring of Tampa is better than the Leafs - Dubas failed in the players he acquired around the core. Nick Paul beat Toronto in Game 7, not the Tampa core.

We don't know which take is correct. We just know the team Dubas designed led to him being fired.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Did you even read my post?

Yes I did. You're still criticizing Dubas for not breaking up the core while refusing to say that Treliving should break up the core.

If Dubas did so terribly with keeping and paying the core, why do you not want Treliving to fix his mistake? Or is it that you're just making stuff up to complain about regarding Dubas and you don't even want to follow your own opinions on what Dubas did wrong?

 

[Divine]

Yes I did. You're still criticizing Dubas for not breaking up the core while refusing to say that Treliving should break up the core.

If Dubas did so terribly with keeping and paying the core, why do you not want Treliving to fix his mistake? Or is it that you're just making stuff up to complain about regarding Dubas and you don't even want to follow your own opinions on what Dubas did wrong?

Here, let me quote it for you since you keep missing it.

The Leafs core outscored Tampa's core last year & this year in the playoffs.
Tampa's secondary scoring outscored the Leafs last year and this year.
Tampa went to the finals three straight seasons, with back to back Cups.

How do you come to the conclusion the core needs to be blown up when presented those facts?

 

[Josey Wales]

I want Treliving to win a Cup.

I don't care if he trades the core or doesn't.

Dubas crippled the team by overpaying the core. Maybe Treliving doesn't need to move them, maybe he does. As long as he wins a Cup, no one cares what he does.

The problem isn't that Dubas didn't break up the core, it's that he didn't break up the core and failed completely. One series win in 5 years coming to a team who went 7 games in a row 2x prior to him joining and entering their prime is a complete failure.

You could argue this core could have won if Dubas surrounded them with different players as much a you can argue the core needs to be split up.

One thing is for sure, the core leads the team in scoring every playoffs... but it's never enough because the players surrounding them aren't good enough either. Whether that means breaking up the core or the wrong supplemental players - that's the GM's job to realize.

Even last year the Leafs core outscored Tampa's, but Tampa went to the finals. Nick Paul scored both goals in Game 7. Maybe Dubas didn't surround the core with good enough players.

Make up my mind Beavis Dubas crippled the team by signing the core, But you don't care it Treliving trades a core member or not........................ I thought the contracts crippled the core Junior?

 

[Divine]

Make up my mind Beavis Dubas crippled the team by signing the core, But you don't care it Treliving trades a core member or not........................ I thought the contracts crippled the core Junior?

The contracts are all expiring, I'm not sure if you're aware of that.

The new contracts are not up to Dubas.

Matthews and Nylander expire next year.
Tavares and Marner the year after.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Here, let me quote it for you since you keep missing it.

The Leafs core outscored Tampa's core last year.
Tampa's secondary scoring outscored the Leafs last year.
Tampa went to the Finals.

How do you come to the conclusion the core needs to be blown up when presented those facts?

Go look at how the Leafs core has done in elimination games.

Again, Matthews and Marner are paid effectively $11 million a season and they produce like 55 point players in elimination games. Want to know why the Leafs keep losing? Because their big guns are losers and make so much money that other teams with cheaper and better big guns can also have better supporting casts around them.

The big guns at the top set the standard for the environment of the Leafs, and all they've done in the NHL is be a bunch of losers. Want to blame Dubas for giving them those contracts? Sure, but you can't do that while not simultaneously also advocating for moving on from those big contracts.

I can totally accept criticism for Dubas for overpaying and keeping the core. I have no problems accepting that. But any criticism of Dubas for overpaying or sticking with the core that isn't immediately followed by "I want them to trade someone from the core" just makes your entire argument invalid.

 

[Josey Wales]

The contracts are all expiring, I'm not sure if you're aware of that.

The new contracts are not up to Dubas.

Well shouldn't he just let them leave them Beavis ??

 

[Divine]

Go look at how the Leafs core has done in elimination games.

Again, Matthews and Marner are paid effectively $11 million a season and they produce like 55 point players in elimination games. Want to know why the Leafs keep losing? Because their big guns are losers and make so much money that other teams with cheaper and better big guns can also have better supporting casts around them.

The big guns at the top set the standard for the environment of the Leafs, and all they've done in the NHL is be a bunch of losers. Want to blame Dubas for giving them those contracts? Sure, but you can't do that while not simultaneously also advocating for moving on from those big contracts.

The Leafs core outscored Tampa's core in elimination games.

The Leafs were never beat in elimination games by Tampa's core. Does Tampa need to blow up their core?

 

[Josey Wales]

The Leafs core outscored Tampa's core in elimination games.

The Leafs were never beat in elimination games by Tampa's core. Does Tampa need to blow up their core?



What does Beavis mean?

Fla. Did OOOOOOOOOOOOPS

 

[Empoleon8771]

The Leafs core outscored Tampa's core in elimination games.

The Leafs were never beat in elimination games by Tampa's core. Does Tampa need to blow up their core?

"Again, Matthews and Marner are paid effectively $11 million a season and they produce like 55 point players in elimination games. Want to know why the Leafs keep losing? Because their big guns are losers and make so much money that other teams with cheaper and better big guns can also have better supporting casts around them."

Tampa Bay has a better core that is also paid cheaper, meaning they can support their core better. Because of what Toronto's core makes, they have the responsibility more than any other team in hockey to set the tone for how their team does in the playoffs. All they do is consistently lose.

 

[Divine]

"Again, Matthews and Marner are paid effectively $11 million a season and they produce like 55 point players in elimination games. Want to know why the Leafs keep losing? Because their big guns are losers and make so much money that other teams with cheaper and better big guns can also have better supporting casts around them."

That's not an accurate point though.

The majority of Cup winners need secondary scoring to win elimination games. Most star players stats drop in elimination games because the other team will focus on them with the "anyone can beat us except them" approach.

 

[Empoleon8771]

That's not an accurate point though.

The majority of Cup winners need secondary scoring to win elimination games. Most star players stats drop in elimination games because the other team will focus on them with the "anyone can beat us except them" approach.

No it's 100% accurate. The Leafs core is highly paid and regularly shits itself in the playoffs. They're probably the highest paid core in the league and play like a bunch of 2nd liners in games that matter. Even if you don't want to talk about elimination games specifically, none of their core players are even PPG players in the playoffs.

I've watched my team win 3 cups in the last 15 years driven by a core made of winners. If you replaced the Penguins core with the Leafs core, they would have never won even a single cup. The Leafs core is paid huge money to set the tone for the Leafs, and they consistently fail once the games start to matter. That is why the Leafs keep losing in the playoffs. They're paying like $40 million for 4 players who consistently do not perform to their abilities or their pay once the games matter.

I can totally accept a criticism of Dubas for what he paid them and his refusal to move any of them. But you can't do that without also saying "I want them to move one of them right now". If you want to keep the core, you can't criticize Dubas for keeping the core.

 

[Divine]

No it's 100% accurate. The Leafs core is highly paid and regularly shits itself in the playoffs. They're probably the highest paid core in the league and play like a bunch of 2nd liners in games that matter. Even if you don't want to talk about elimination games specifically, none of their core players are even PPG players in the playoffs.

I've watched my team win 3 cups in the last 15 years driven by a core made of winners. If you replaced the Penguins core with the Leafs core, they would have never won even a single cup. The Leafs core is paid huge money to set the tone for the Leafs, and they consistently fail once the games start to matter. That is why the Leafs keep losing in the playoffs. They're paying like $40 million for 4 players who consistently do not perform to their abilities or their pay once the games matter.

I can totally accept a criticism of Dubas for what he paid them and his refusal to move any of them. But you can't do that without also saying "I want them to move one of them right now". If you want to keep the core, you can't criticize Dubas for keeping the core.

The Leafs core has been PPG+ the last 2 playoffs. The Leafs core was making the playoffs in their teenage/20 year old years, that shouldn't be used as a knock against them to lower their career stats. Would it be better if they missed all those years and just made it the last 2?

The Leafs should trade their core if they improve as a result. However, if everyone knows the core is going to fail, like you suggest, why would a team trade great assets for them?

Based on your narrative, the Leafs would be a better team keeping their core.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Like I said previously, Matthews and Marner both have 12 points in 17 career elimination games in the playoffs. That is a 58 point pace. Between their 2008 and 2009 cup runs, the Penguins played in 14 elimination games. Here is how Crosby and Malkin did:

2008:

-Game 4, round 1: Crosby had 2 points and Malkin had 1 point
-Game 4, round 2: Crosby had 0 points and Malkin had 0 points
-Game 5, round 2: Crosby had 2 points and Malkin had 1 point
-Game 4, round 3: Crosby had 0 points and Malkin had 0 points
-Game 5, round 3: Corsby had 2 points and Malkin had 1 point
-Game 5, round 4: Crosby had 2 points and Malkin had 1 point
-Game 6, round 4: Crosby had 1 point and Malkin had 2 points
-Total: 9 points in 7 elimination games for Crosby, 6 points in 7 elimination games for Malkin

2009:

-Game 5, round 1: Crosby had 0 points and Malkin had 0 points
-Game 6, round 1: Crosby had 2 points and Malkin had 2 points
-Game 6, round 2: Crosby had 2 points and Malkin had 3 points
-Game 7, round 2: Crosby had 3 points and Malkin had 2 points
-Game 4, round 3: Crosby had 2 points and Malkin had 0 points
-Game 6, round 4: Crosby had 0 points and Malkin had 0 points
-Game 7, round 4: Crosby had 0 points (was injured in this game) and Malkin had 1 point
-Total: 9 points in 7 elimination games for Crosby, 8 points in 7 elimination games for Malkin

In those two years, Crosby had 18 points in 14 elimination games and Malkin had 14 points in 14 elimination games. Replace those two with Matthews and Marner and they never would have won a cup. That's why the Leafs are a bunch of losers, it's because their core isn't performing to their pay scale or abilities in the playoffs.

The Leafs core is one of the highest paid, if not the highest paid, cores in the NHL. Yet they consistently fail to show up to their abilities or their pay level in the playoffs. That is why the Leafs lose. Their core is paid huge money for pedestrian results in the playoffs, and their huge salaries limited how much support Dubas could provide for that core.