[Friedman] Pittsburgh hires Kyle Dubas as President of Hockey Operations

[Fatass]

Didn’t Dubas build the best teams the Leafs ever had? 115 points is darned good. Seems like Shanahan wanted to keep him too, but there was a disconnect between them only he and Dubas really know about.
So Dubas ends up in Pittsburgh. Imo that’s a big loss for the Leafs. The relationships he built with the key players will make it hard on his successor to keep that 115 point group together. Pittsburgh will see two years of really good success and then a rebuild. All directed by Dubas.

 

[Pens x]

Going from Burke to Dubas is quite a drastic improvement.

Going from Hextall to a sock or doorknob would also be a huge upgrade.

 

[Shrimper]

Maggie the monkey's corpse is a better option than Dubas.

Keep telling yourself that

 

[mephisto1812]

Keep telling yourself that

 

[GirardSpinorama]

Why would you cut out rentals?

Adding quality rentals to a contender is a pretty key part of a GM's job. Personally, the types of rentals he picked up last year are exactly what I hope he can bring to Pittsburgh going forward.

Because adding rentals at the cost of picks and prospects is judged based on results. If you don't get any results, it doesn't matter how much fans like the acquisition.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Because adding rentals at the cost of picks and prospects is judged based on results. If you don't get any results, it doesn't matter how much fans like the acquisition.

Did the Leafs not beat the Lightning? Did ROR not perform as well as any reasonable person would hope?

Just because a team lost in the 2nd round to an eventual Finals team - and possible Cup winner - doesn't mean the rentals weren't good acquisitions. They did their part.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

Did the Leafs not beat the Lightning? Did ROR not perform as well as any reasonable person would hope?

Just because a team lost in the 2nd round to an eventual Finals team - and possible Cup winner - doesn't mean the rentals weren't good acquisitions. They did their part.

So Giroux and Chiarot were good moves last year?

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

So Giroux and Chiarot were good moves last year?

Yes?

If you're judging a GM's moves based exclusively on whether they win a Cup, your list of good GMs is going to be pretty short.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

Yes?

If you're judging a GM's moves based exclusively on whether they win a Cup, your list of good GMs is going to be pretty short.

The list of good GMs should be pretty short. There's only 32 GMs in the league.

If your expectation out of trading a first round pick is to just avoid complete disaster like Foligno, then your expectation is too low.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

The list of good GMs should be pretty short. There's only 32 GMs in the league.

If your expectation out of trading a first round pick is to just avoid complete disaster like Foligno, then your expectation is too low.

Apparently 31 bad ones every year.

ROR was more than "avoiding a complete disaster". He did exactly what was expected of him.

 

[nturn06]

Didn’t Dubas build the best teams the Leafs ever had? 115 points is darned good. Seems like Shanahan wanted to keep him too, but there was a disconnect between them only he and Dubas really know about.
So Dubas ends up in Pittsburgh. Imo that’s a big loss for the Leafs. The relationships he built with the key players will make it hard on his successor to keep that 115 point group together. Pittsburgh will see two years of really good success and then a rebuild. All directed by Dubas.

Yes, he build an amazing team. He build an amazing core by drafting Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Rielly, Kadri, Hyman, Anderssen, Kapanen, Johnsson... Oh wait, nevermind, he just inherted those, and gave away the last few and 5-6 first rounders with no playoffs success.....

 

[Empoleon8771]

It's going to be funny when the Leafs continue to not have playoff success and Treliving gets blamed, instead of realizing the core guys the Leafs have are a bunch of losers.

 

[nturn06]

Did the Leafs not beat the Lightning? Did ROR not perform as well as any reasonable person would hope?

Just because a team lost in the 2nd round to an eventual Finals team - and possible Cup winner - doesn't mean the rentals weren't good acquisitions. They did their part.

So after 4 years of failures he finally got some trade deadline succes, how is that a positive?
The issue is not that his rentals this year only took him to the second round, the issue is that in the previous 4 seasons he basically sold the future for nothing. And in two of those 4 seasons they were on paper the better team for the first round even without the deadline aquisitions.

4 out of 5 seasons utter falure+ 1 minimal success in the first season do not add to a good GM....

 

[Turin]

There's very few people who can obtain a high level position with zero results, Dubas seems to be one of them.

Helped the Greyhounds a lot in the OHL, making them a top team in that league again within a year. Won the Calder Cup with the Marlies. Didn't have playoff success in Toronto assembled teams that traditionally have more success than the core was able to muster.

Dubas got the contract in Pittsburgh not because his analytics being results, but because Dubas is now in the Old Boys Club. Controversial stories of prior penguins management leaked (see stories of them trading Blueger during a team dinner, and the Malkin renegotiation) so Pens ownership are going for someone with a “nice guy image”.

1. Those stories were half-truths at best.
2. Hexburke wasn't despised because they were mean, they were despised because they sucked.
3. FSG already wanted Dubas well before those stories came out, and it's likely that FSG, who owns the Boston Globe, had a hand in planting some of that stuff.
4. Dubas was hired because he was the most qualified and valuable mgmt asset available.

 

[Turin]

Yes, he build an amazing team. He build an amazing core by drafting Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Rielly, Kadri, Hyman, Anderssen, Kapanen, Johnsson... Oh wait, nevermind, he just inherted those, and gave away the last few and 5-6 first rounders with no playoffs success.....

1. He was in the org when they drafted Marner, Matthews and Nylander. Who knows what kind of input he had on Marner and Nylander?
2. He literally is the guy who brought in Zach Hyman to the Leafs org for nothing.
3. He helped work on the Kessel trade that brought Kapanen to the Leafs - who he eventually traded for well above his value back to Pittsburgh when he was GM.
4. Kadri trade stunk but it's a forgivable situation. Only looked terrible last year.

 

[Empoleon8771]

So after 4 years of failures he finally got some trade deadline succes, how is that a positive?
The issue is not that his rentals this year only took him to the second round, the issue is that in the previous 4 seasons he basically sold the future for nothing. And in two of those 4 seasons they were on paper the better team for the first round even without the deadline aquisitions.

4 out of 5 seasons utter falure+ 1 minimal success in the first season do not add to a good GM....

Maybe it's because that the guys who are paid over $10 million a year regularly don't show up in elimination games.

Totally Dubas' fault that Matthews and Marner both have 12 points in 17 career elimination games.

 

[Turin]

So Giroux and Chiarot were good moves last year?

By your logic the Pens arguably lost the Hossa trade because they didn't end up winning. ROR is exactly what they should have done. Dubas' biggest crime is not getting Ekholm instead of McCabe - which isn't that big of a crime.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

So after 4 years of failures he finally got some trade deadline succes, how is that a positive?
The issue is not that his rentals this year only took him to the second round, the issue is that in the previous 4 seasons he basically sold the future for nothing. And in two of those 4 seasons they were on paper the better team for the first round even without the deadline aquisitions.

4 out of 5 seasons utter falure+ 1 minimal success in the first season do not add to a good GM....

If you follow the sequence of posts, it is about those rentals. A poster tried to omit rentals altogether from a GM's resume, but they are a factor.

The rest is up for debate, absolutely.

 

[nturn06]

Maybe it's because that the guys who are paid over $10 million a year regularly don't show up in elimination games.

Totally Dubas' fault that Matthews and Marner both have 12 points in 17 career elimination games.

Poor guy, it's not his fault that he build a team who fails in the playoffs year after year....And probably the fact that he replaced all grit with skill, and build a soft team had no impact on their playoffs performance....

 

[Turin]

Both in 2019 and 2021, 22 and now in 2023 the Leafs star players shit. the. bed. They had a legitimate path to the Cup all 3 of those seasons and every time the Leafs stars wilted instead of stepped up.

In 2019 they had a 3-2 series lead and Columbus. Carolina and St. Louis ahead of them. They could have won the Cup that year. But instead they no completely no-show game 6 and 7.

In 2021 they lost to Montreal by blowing a 3-1 series lead. Enough said. They went completely dry, and despite the choking probably would have won if Tavares didn't get injured that series.

In 2022 they were dead-even with the Lightning if not slightly better and just couldn't muster any offense at all in game 7.

And now this year they let their guard down against Florida and from games 1-3 vs Florida Matthews and Marner did absolutely nothing.

Poor guy, it's not his fault that he build a team who fails in the playoffs year after year....And probably the fact that he replaced all grit with skill, and build a soft team had no impact on their playoffs performance....

Yea.. he really doubled down on soft skill after trading Sandin and Engvall and bringing in ROR, McCabe, Lafferty, Acciari and Schenn. Dubas' biggest mistake was not prioritizing skill enough this last TDL. I bet you still think the Leafs suck defensively too, despite being 5th in the league in GA.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Poor guy, it's not his fault that he build a team who fails in the playoffs year after year....And probably the fact that he replaced all grit with skill, and build a soft team had no impact on their playoffs performance....

That standard of losing is enforced by the stars at the top, not the guys Dubas has brought in to support them.

The guys Dubas brought in aren't the reason the Leafs have been perennial losers.

 

[Empoleon8771]

2019: Leafs were up 3-2 on Boston in the 1st round. They lost games 6 and 7 by a combined score of 9-3 while Matthews (1 point, -4), Tavares (1 point, -2) and Marner (0 points, -2) absolutely laid eggs in the elimination games.

2020: The Leafs had an amazing comeback against Columbus fueled by the big guns in game 4 to bring the series back to 2-2, which took the qualifying round into a deciding game 5. They got shut out and went out in a whimper in game 5.

2021: They were in a cupcake division and got the barely .500 Montreal Canadians in round 1. The Leafs went up 3-1 and proceeded to blow the series and lose 4-3. They scored only 6 goals in the last 3 games of the series. Tavares was injured, Marner had only 1 point in 3 games and Matthews only had 2 points in 3 games.

2022: Leafs were up 3-2 on Tampa in the 1st round. They lost games 6 and 7 in close games. This is actually one where the big guns were okay, Tavares had 2 goals in game 6 and Matthews had a goal in game 6 and a primary assist in game 7.

2023: The Leafs finally won a round but then the team absolutely choked in round 2 in an uncompetitive performance. Matthews didn't have a point in the last 3 games after going down 2-0 in the series. Another case of them going out in an absolute whimper.

But yeah it's just Dubas' fault that the Leafs kept losing.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

Apparently 31 bad ones every year.

ROR was more than "avoiding a complete disaster". He did exactly what was expected of him.

And moves that result in what was expected is called an average move.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

By your logic the Pens arguably lost the Hossa trade because they didn't end up winning. ROR is exactly what they should have done. Dubas' biggest crime is not getting Ekholm instead of McCabe - which isn't that big of a crime.

RoR did what in round 2?

2019: Leafs were up 3-2 on Boston in the 1st round. They lost games 6 and 7 by a combined score of 9-3 while Matthews (1 point, -4), Tavares (1 point, -2) and Marner (0 points, -2) absolutely laid eggs in the elimination games.

2020: The Leafs had an amazing comeback against Columbus fueled by the big guns in game 4 to bring the series back to 2-2, which took the qualifying round into a deciding game 5. They got shut out and went out in a whimper in game 5.

2021: They were in a cupcake division and got the barely .500 Montreal Canadians in round 1. The Leafs went up 3-1 and proceeded to blow the series and lose 4-3. They scored only 6 goals in the last 3 games of the series. Tavares was injured, Marner had only 1 point in 3 games and Matthews only had 2 points in 3 games.

2022: Leafs were up 3-2 on Tampa in the 1st round. They lost games 6 and 7 in close games. This is actually one where the big guns were okay, Tavares had 2 goals in game 6 and Matthews had a goal in game 6 and a primary assist in game 7.

2023: The Leafs finally won a round but then the team absolutely choked in round 2 in an uncompetitive performance. Matthews didn't have a point in the last 3 games after going down 2-0 in the series. Another case of them going out in an absolute whimper.

But yeah it's just Dubas' fault that the Leafs kept losing.

It's his fault of creating a culture of ZERO accountability for his core. The good thing for the Pens is that Crosby and co isn't a young/immature core and already understands what it takes.

 

[Empoleon8771]

It's his fault of creating a culture of ZERO accountability for his core. The good thing for the Pens is that Crosby and co isn't a young/immature core and already understands what it takes.

That's way more on the core than on Dubas. Dubas shouldn't have to babysit the core and establish a standard of professionalism. The core should be doing that because they're the actual leaders of the team.