[Friedman] Pittsburgh hires Kyle Dubas as President of Hockey Operations

[Divine]

Like I said previously, Matthews and Marner both have 12 points in 17 career elimination games in the playoffs. That is a 58 point pace. Between their 2008 and 2009 cup runs, the Penguins played in 14 elimination games. Here is how Crosby and Malkin did:

2008:

-Game 4, round 1: Crosby had 2 points and Malkin had 1 point
-Game 4, round 2: Crosby had 0 points and Malkin had 0 points
-Game 5, round 2: Crosby had 2 points and Malkin had 1 point
-Game 4, round 3: Crosby had 0 points and Malkin had 0 points
-Game 5, round 3: Corsby had 2 points and Malkin had 1 point
-Game 5, round 4: Crosby had 2 points and Malkin had 1 point
-Game 6, round 4: Crosby had 1 point and Malkin had 2 points
-Total: 9 points in 7 elimination games for Crosby, 6 points in 7 elimination games for Malkin

2009:

-Game 5, round 1: Crosby had 0 points and Malkin had 0 points
-Game 6, round 1: Crosby had 2 points and Malkin had 2 points
-Game 6, round 2: Crosby had 2 points and Malkin had 3 points
-Game 7, round 2: Crosby had 3 points and Malkin had 2 points
-Game 4, round 3: Crosby had 2 points and Malkin had 0 points
-Game 6, round 4: Crosby had 0 points and Malkin had 0 points
-Game 7, round 4: Crosby had 0 points (was injured in this game) and Malkin had 1 point
-Total: 9 points in 7 elimination games for Crosby, 8 points in 7 elimination games for Malkin

In those two years, Crosby had 18 points in 14 elimination games and Malkin had 14 points in 14 elimination games. Replace those two with Matthews and Marner and they never would have won a cup. That's why the Leafs are a bunch of losers, it's because their core isn't performing to their pay scale or abilities in the playoffs.

I don't think too many people would argue Matthews and Marner are the same as Crosby and Malkin. Pittsburgh got extremely lucky getting two of the world's best players in two consecutive drafts.

That said, Crosby and Malkin have 3 Cups in 18 seasons. That means, 15 of the last 18 seasons, a core without Crosby and Malkin won the Cup.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I don't think too many people would argue Matthews and Marner are the same as Crosby and Malkin. Pittsburgh got extremely lucky getting two of the world's best players in two consecutive drafts.

It's like you're intentionally ignoring the point of what I'm saying.

Crosby and Malkin got huge money (at the time) deals out of their ELCs, but they actually performed to the level that warranted their huge salaries (at the time) in the playoffs and won a cup because of it. The Leafs core also got huge money, but they routinely do not show up in the playoffs to their pay scale or their abilities. That's why the Leafs lose. If Crosby and Malkin were as shitty as Matthews and Marner were in the playoffs with the Penguins, they never would have won a cup.

That said, Crosby and Malkin have 3 Cups in 18 seasons. That means, 15 of the last 18 seasons, a core without Crosby and Malkin won the Cup.

Okay? They've also won 20 playoff rounds in those 18 seasons. Do you know how far back you have to go for the Leafs to have 20 playoff round wins?

The Penguins have had consistent success over the last 15 years, whether it be with winning cups outright or just going deep in the playoffs, despite having a core making huge money. They did this because their core players actually perform well in the playoffs. The Leafs have had literally zero success with their core outside of 1 series win, and their core makes huge money to not show up in the playoffs.

 

[Divine]

It's like you're intentionally ignoring the point of what I'm saying.

Crosby and Malkin got huge money (at the time) deals out of their ELCs, but they actually performed to the level that warranted their huge salaries (at the time) in the playoffs and won a cup because of it. The Leafs core also got huge money, but they routinely do not show up in the playoffs to their pay scale or their abilities. That's why the Leafs lose. If Crosby and Malkin were as shitty as Matthews and Marner were in the playoffs with the Penguins, they never would have won a cup.



Okay? They've also won 20 playoff rounds in those 18 seasons. Do you know how far back you have to go for the Leafs to have 20 playoff round wins?

I'm saying as good as you're arguing Crosby and Malkin are, they only won 3 Cups. Which means it's possible to win with cores not as good.

The Leafs core has been a PPG the last 2 seasons. I understand they weren't as good when Matthews made the playoffs in his 19 and 20 year old seasons.

If you believe the Leafs core is not good enough to win, why would anyone want to trade equal or greater value for them?

The point stands, even if the Leafs want to trade them, if the best offer is a 1st round pick - you keep them and surround them with better players.

Dubas' mistake was he kept trading draft picks so we had no cheap ELC to fill the gap. Next year, at least there's Knies. Thank God Dubas didn't trade him for Fleury like it was speculated two seasons ago.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'm saying as good as you're arguing Crosby and Malkin are, they only won 3 Cups. Which means it's possible to win with cores not as good.

The Leafs core has been a PPG the last 2 seasons. I understand they weren't as good when Matthews made the playoffs in his 19 and 20 year old seasons.

If you believe the Leafs core is not good enough to win, why would anyone want to trade equal or greater value for them?

The point stands, even if the Leafs want to trade them, if the best offer is a 1st round pick - you keep them and surround them with better players.

Dubas' mistake was he kept trading draft picks so we had no cheap ELC to fill the gap. Next year, at least there's Knies. Thank God Dubas didn't trade him for Fleury like it was speculated two seasons ago.

It's not about "winning cups". It's about performing in the playoffs. The Penguins have been consistent playoff performers (for the most part) over the Crosby and Malkin era, because their core has been consistent playoff performers over the Crosby and Malkin era. The Leafs have won 1 round and then were smoked out in the 2nd round, and continuously get bad value performances from their core.

 

[Divine]

It's not about "winning cups". It's about performing in the playoffs. The Penguins have been consistent playoff performers (for the most part) over the Crosby and Malkin era, because their core has been consistent playoff performers over the Crosby and Malkin era. The Leafs have won 1 round and then were smoked out in the 2nd round, and continuously get bad value performances from their core.

Yes, all under one GM's vision.

Let's see how they do with another GM.

There is no question Dubas' Leafs failed. There is no disputing that. The Leafs signed a GM with no NHL experience, and he failed to deliver any results.

 

[3074326]

Leafs fans lecturing Pens fans about playoff success

 

[USMC607]

If you believe the core can't win, then Dubas should have probably moved them.

The team did not fail for any reason other than on-ice performance, which Dubas is responsible for.

It's never one thing or person. But I understand there always has to be one head on chopping block when stuff doesn't work out as planned. Dubas was the guy this time around.

But that 1st point as a GM he'd have never been allowed to trade one of the big 3

Did you even read my post?

I said the Leafs core outscored Tampa's, yet Tampa went to the Finals last season and the Leafs are out in the 1st round.

Is that a problem with the core or secondary scoring?

Some people can say, well the Leafs core needs to be 3x better than Tampa's for them to win, and if they're only better it's not good enough.

Others can argue, well the secondary scoring of Tampa is better than the Leafs - Dubas failed in the players he acquired around the core. Nick Paul beat Toronto in Game 7, not the Tampa core.

We don't know which take is correct. We just know the team Dubas designed led to him being fired.

I think it would be fair to include Vasi too as he is a top goalie and was a huge part of their success... A goalie with his consistency is extremely hard to find.

Alot of GMs search for years and years and can't find one like him. Dubas was one of those GMs.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Leafs fans lecturing Pens fans about playoff success

Leafs fans in here are just blaming Dubas for not giving the core the support cast it needed, but the Leafs core is so overpaid for what they bring in the playoffs that Dubas' hands were tied and couldn't give them the support cast they needed.

It's the same thing as when Penguins fans were blaming JR for not giving Crosby and Malkin a good enough support cast in like 2020, where Crosby and Malkin were having awful playoff performances and the Penguins were getting embarrassed in the 1st round. Like yeah, JR did do a bad job at supporting the core, but you're not winning a thing if your $8+ million players are putting up like 3 or 4 points in a 6 game series.

 

[Divine]

Leafs fans in here are just blaming Dubas for not giving the core the support cast it needed, but the Leafs core is so overpaid for what they bring in the playoffs that Dubas' hands were tied and couldn't give them the support cast they needed.

It's the same thing as when Penguins fans were blaming JR for not giving Crosby and Malkin a good enough support cast in like 2020, where Crosby and Malkin were having awful playoff performances and the Penguins were getting embarrassed in the 1st round. Like yeah, JR did do a bad job at supporting the core, but you're not winning a thing if your $8+ million players are putting up like 3 or 4 points in a 6 game series.

The part you're leaving out is Dubas is the one who overpaid the core. Should Leafs fans sympathize with Dubas for overpaying the core and not being able to provide a supporting cast?

Pittsburgh struggled to win again until they got a great supporting player in Kessel and a hot Matt Murray fell into their lap. It's not solely about the core, they need help also.

 

[HockeyVirus]

Still so weird seeing pens fans who have hated on the Leafs now fearcly defending Dubas

 

[Empoleon8771]

The part you're leaving out is Dubas is the one who overpaid the core. Should Leafs fans sympathize with Dubas for overpaying the core and not being able to provide a supporting cast?

No, but don't simultaneously act like the core shouldn't be addressed if you're going to criticize Dubas for overpaying them.

 

[TheStatican]

I don't think too many people would argue Matthews and Marner are the same as Crosby and Malkin. Pittsburgh got extremely lucky getting two of the world's best players in two consecutive drafts.

That said, Crosby and Malkin have 3 Cups in 18 seasons. That means, 15 of the last 18 seasons, a core without Crosby and Malkin won the Cup.

3 in 18... that's a 16.7% win rate. Meanwhile the average team over that time span has had a little more than a 1 in 30 chance of winning the cup, or a 3.3% win rate. What that basically amounts to is the Penguins were 5 times more likely to win the cup than average for all NHL teams over the past 18 years. I would say that's... not bad.

 

[Divine]

3 in 18... that's a 16.7% win rate. Meanwhile the average team over that time span has had a little more than a 1 in 30 chance of winning the cup, or a 3.3% win rate. What that basically amounts to is the Penguins were 5 times more likely to win the cup than average for all NHL teams over the past 18 years. I would say that's... not bad.

I agree.

No one said it's bad. Just that you don't need Crosby and Malkin to win a Cup... it helps, but not necessary.

 

[edog37]

I'm saying as good as you're arguing Crosby and Malkin are, they only won 3 Cups. Which means it's possible to win with cores not as good.

The Leafs core has been a PPG the last 2 seasons. I understand they weren't as good when Matthews made the playoffs in his 19 and 20 year old seasons.

If you believe the Leafs core is not good enough to win, why would anyone want to trade equal or greater value for them?

The point stands, even if the Leafs want to trade them, if the best offer is a 1st round pick - you keep them and surround them with better players.

Dubas' mistake was he kept trading draft picks so we had no cheap ELC to fill the gap. Next year, at least there's Knies. Thank God Dubas didn't trade him for Fleury like it was speculated two seasons ago.

Outside the Hawks, who else won 3 Cups in the salary cap era?

 

[Divine]

No, but don't simultaneously act like the core shouldn't be addressed if you're going to criticize Dubas for overpaying them.

How do we know if the core needs to be addressed?

What if Treliving wins with this core?

Washington would never win with their core, until they did.

Sometimes you just need a GM/coach smart enough to build around the core.

Outside the Hawks, who else won 3 Cups in the salary cap era?

Missing the point. I'm saying you don't *need* Crosby and Malkin to win a Cup because the other poster keeps comparing Crosby and Malkin to Marner and Matthews lol.

If you did, the Pens would have 18 Cups.

 

[Empoleon8771]

How do we know if the core needs to be addressed?

What if Treliving wins with this core?

Washington would never win with their core, until they did.

Sometimes you just need a GM/coach smart enough to build around the core.

Then why criticize Dubas for how he handled the core then?

That's the issue here. Leafs fans are at least happy with the core but are still bitching about how Dubas overpaid them or how the team keeps losing largely due to their bad playoff performances.

If you're happy with the core and don't want to do anything to address it, then why are you bitching about Dubas' job handling the core?

 

[Divine]

Then why criticize Dubas for how he handled the core then?

That's the issue here. Leafs fans are at least happy with the core but are still bitching about how Dubas overpaid them or how the team keeps losing largely due to their bad playoff performances.

If you're happy with the core and don't want to do anything to address it, then why are you bitching about Dubas' job handling the core?

Dubas overpaid them, and then didn't built around them properly. It's simple.

You can get away with overplaying players, if you build around them properly. Dubas did not.

Dubas was handed:

Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Connor Brown, Hyman, Kapanen all on ELC's
Kadri making 4.5M
Rielly making 5M

The Leafs would gladly take that team back for the team Dubas left us with.

That's why people are upset with Dubas. He left the team worse than he was given it.

 

[edog37]

Dubas overpaid them, and then didn't built around them properly. It's simple.

You can get away with overplaying players, if you build around them properly. Dubas did not.

Dubas was handed:

Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Connor Brown, Hyman, Kapanen all on ELC's
Kadri making 4.5M
Rielly making 5M

The Leafs would gladly take that team back for the team Dubas left us with.

That's why people are upset with Dubas. He left the team worse than he was given it.

Can’t put the toothpaste back into the tube. Did you honestly think those core guys were going to sign for less? Those guys were going to get paid no matter if it was Toronto or somewhere else.

 

[socko]

Dubas couldn't have done less with more, if he was an undercover agent for Montreal. It's just too bad he didn't take his buddy Shanahan with him. A first round pick for 11 games of old broke back Nick Foligno who, get this, missed his last game with Columbus prior to the trade because of a back injury. It doesn't say much for the Leafs medical staff either.

 

[Divine]

Can’t put the toothpaste back into the tube. Did you honestly think those core guys were going to sign for less? Those guys were going to get paid no matter if it was Toronto or somewhere else.

They couldn't sign anywhere else because they were all RFA's.

I definitely believe they could have been signed for less. The Leafs had all the leverage, unless another team wanted to give the Leafs 4 1st round picks for each of them.

 

[edog37]

They couldn't sign anywhere else because they were all RFA's.

I definitely believe they could have been signed for less. The Leafs had all the leverage, unless another team wanted to give the Leafs 4 1st round picks for each of them.

And he paid them for what he thought they were worth. He didn’t tell them to stop scoring in the second round

 

[Divine]

And he paid them for what he thought they were worth. He didn’t tell them to stop scoring in the second round

He paid them over market value. We can't blame him for that?

Rantanen signed a contract after Marner with the same stats for less.
Pastrnak just signed a contract as a UFA for cheaper than Matthews as a RFA.

If you want to argue they weren't overpaid as RFA's with no leverage when all offersheets are 4 1st round picks, that's on you. I don't believe that.

I get you want to hype up Dubas because he's your new wonderkid POHO, but that was objectively an overpayment.

 

[12ozPapa]

If Dubas had been a GM for ANY other team, this thread would not be this long.

 

[Oleksiak]

And he paid them for what he thought they were worth. He didn’t tell them to stop scoring in the second round

And he should have known they weren't worth it after they proved that they don't give a damn about winning and aren't willing to put in an acceptable effort. The only time Marner and Nylander tried to accomplish anything was when they bent over Dubas for their abominations of contracts. A qualified GM would have gotten what he could for them and used the cap space to bring in better support and actual NHLers for the blueline.

 

[Leaf Fans]

Leafs fans lecturing Pens fans about playoff success

That is not me. It is a Leaf fan called Divine.