[Friedman] Pittsburgh hires Kyle Dubas as President of Hockey Operations

[edog37]

He paid them over market value. We can't blame him for that?

Rantanen signed a contract after Marner with the same stats for less.
Pastrnak just signed a contract as a UFA for cheaper than Matthews as a RFA.

If you want to argue they weren't overpaid as RFA's with no leverage when all offersheets are 4 1st round picks, that's on you. I don't believe that.

I get you want to hype up Dubas because he's your new wonderkid POHO, but that was objectively an overpayment.

He paid them over market value. We can't blame him for that?

Rantanen signed a contract after Marner with the same stats for less.
Pastrnak just signed a contract as a UFA for cheaper than Matthews as a RFA.

If you want to argue they weren't overpaid as RFA's with no leverage when all offersheets are 4 1st round picks, that's on you. I don't believe that.

I get you want to hype up Dubas because he's your new wonderkid POHO, but that was objectively an overpayment.

Hindsight is always 20/20. So are you saying that now or were you good with it at the time? I suspect the latter. Remember our former GM traded a 2nd round pick for Mikael Granlund, extended Kapanen & Carter.

 

[edog37]

How ex

And he should have known they weren't worth it after they proved that they don't give a damn about winning and aren't willing to put in an acceptable effort. The only time Marner and Nylander tried to accomplish anything was when they bent over Dubas for their abominations of contracts. A qualified GM would have gotten what he could for them and used the cap space to bring in better support and actual NHLers for the blueline.

How exactly was he supposed to know that? Marner came off a 26 goal, 94 point season. Nylander had two straight 20 goal seasons. Contracts aren’t rewards, they’re based on potential. All indications at the time suggested they would be good investments. And if those guys went elsewhere & succeeded, you guys would’ve complained about Dubas for that.

Interesting how Leaf fans don’t blame coaching for not getting more out of these guys.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

You're missing your own point.

It's clear from your post that fans are fans. You are missing that point. Most fans are not watching every game, let alone other teams. They simply cheer their team and trust the management - which is what the fans were doing.

It's not even shocking, that is exactly what you expect from fans. It wasn't the fans that were wrong, it was Dubas.

Now, fans realize Dubas is wrong and blame him... and you're turning around and blaming the fans for being happy their GM made a move at a time. It makes no sense.

Fans do not get paid millions of dollars or invest the kind of time and money or have the access a GM has. The fans can simply support the team or boycott the team - those are their options. What they believe has no bearing on the GM.

Your point is basically: "Fans thought Dubas was doing a good job when he wasn't and now they have no right to complain!"

Okay? Are they going to fire the fans or Dubas?

The fans do not invest as much time into the sports as you seem to think. Most fans watch a few games a year, of course they'll be happy their million dollar GM made a big move.

Basically, you think it's funny the average fan who watches 10 games a year was happy that Tavares was signed... and now they have no right to criticize Dubas for his failures because they thought Dubas made the right move at the time.

It's the weirdest argument I've ever seen.

No, for the 100th time, my point is fans who defended those signings at the time probably shouldn't be ragging on Dubas for the signings now.

It's like Hextall trading a 2nd for Granlund. I hated it at the time, so I can now post about how stupid it was now because I'm not being a hypocrite using hindsight. However, if at the time of the trade I was in every thread attacking people who criticized it and said how awesome the trade is only to NOW be critical of it, I'd be a massive hypocrite. That's what you and a lot of Leaf fans are being now.

Also, the fact you think your star players actually perform in the playoffs at the level expected of star players speaks volumes though.

Matthews - 44 points in 50 games
Tavares - 44 points in 55 games (including only 22 in 31 as a Leaf)
Marner - 47 points in 50 games, and he seems to get the most "hate" from Leaf fans
Nylander - 40 points in 50 games

Name a team that's gone all the way and won it all whose core players all produce as underwhelmingly as that. You'd probably have to find some defensive juggernaut who relied on goaltending and defense, because any team who were carried by their star offensive players don't collectively put up those kind of paltry numbers. The closest would be Stamkos' underwhelming playoff production, but lucky for Tampa that's offset by having Point and Kucherov actually produce like elite players.

But yeah, it's completely on Dubas for not surrounding those guys with more support, not those guys being ghosts when the Leafs need them most.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

After a lot of reflection I am pretty shocked at what Kyle Dubas did to Brendan Shanahan.

Shanny hired him as AGM of the Leafs with very little experience, and not a lot of success in the Soo. Then when it looks like KD is getting groomed by COL, he cuts ties with both Mark Hunter and Lou Lamoriello to make Dubas the GM.

Shanny supported him through contract failures to playoff failures. He allowed Kyle to go with his plan year after year to "run it back". He allowed Kyle to build a team consisting of Soo Greyhounds and skilled/soft players. He allowed Kyle to have his own trusted coach in place too.

Shanny was even going to extend him after 1 playoff series win in 5 years.

How does Dubas show his gratitude? He used his family as ponds in a play to gain Presidential-like autonomy with Toronto. He also asked for more money after not being sure of his commitment and his family issues (hoping that his PIT offer would give him plenty of leverage in a negotiation).

He's betrayed Shanny in the worst way. I also think he's a big time Phoney. A true Careerist Weasel Mook Jabroni.

Soon enough it will be clear to the fans too.

I will guarantee one thing:

He will never work in TORONTO ever again. Not at any capacity: Management, Media, Scout, etc.


Good luck Pittsburgh. He's your problem now.

 

[Kranix]

After a lot of reflection I am pretty shocked at what Kyle Dubas did to Brendan Shanahan.

Shanny hired him as AGM of the Leafs with very little experience, and not a lot of success in the Soo. Then when it looks like KD is getting groomed by COL, he cuts ties with both Mark Hunter and Lou Lamoriello to make Dubas the GM.

Shanny supported him through contract failures to playoff failures. He allowed Kyle to go with his plan year after year to "run it back". He allowed Kyle to build a team consisting of Soo Greyhounds and skilled/soft players. He allowed Kyle to have his own trusted coach in place too.

Shanny was even going to extend him after 1 playoff series win in 5 years.

How does Dubas show his gratitude? He used his family as ponds in a play to gain Presidential-like autonomy with Toronto. He also asked for more money after not being sure of his commitment and his family issues (hoping that his PIT offer would give him plenty of leverage in a negotiation).

He's betrayed Shanny in the worst way. I also think he's a big time Phoney. A true Careerist Weasel Mook Jabroni.

Soon enough it will be clear to the fans too.

I will guarantee one thing:

He will never work in TORONTO ever again. Not at any capacity: Management, Media, Scout, etc.


Good luck Pittsburgh. He's your problem now.

you're being so melodramatic, and inaccurate, really.

 

[Empoleon8771]

After a lot of reflection I am pretty shocked at what Kyle Dubas did to Brendan Shanahan.

Shanny hired him as AGM of the Leafs with very little experience, and not a lot of success in the Soo. Then when it looks like KD is getting groomed by COL, he cuts ties with both Mark Hunter and Lou Lamoriello to make Dubas the GM.

Shanny supported him through contract failures to playoff failures. He allowed Kyle to go with his plan year after year to "run it back". He allowed Kyle to build a team consisting of Soo Greyhounds and skilled/soft players. He allowed Kyle to have his own trusted coach in place too.

Shanny was even going to extend him after 1 playoff series win in 5 years.

How does Dubas show his gratitude? He used his family as ponds in a play to gain Presidential-like autonomy with Toronto. He also asked for more money after not being sure of his commitment and his family issues (hoping that his PIT offer would give him plenty of leverage in a negotiation).

He's betrayed Shanny in the worst way. I also think he's a big time Phoney. A true Careerist Weasel Mook Jabroni.

Soon enough it will be clear to the fans too.

I will guarantee one thing:

He will never work in TORONTO ever again. Not at any capacity: Management, Media, Scout, etc.


Good luck Pittsburgh. He's your problem now.

Live look at Dubas reading your post

You post gives off some hardcore main character syndrome. Oh no, Dubas won't be able to work in Toronto again! The horror!

 

[The Management]

Dubas has a good reputation as an executive and I expect he will be well-received within the Penguins organization. As a manager of people, I haven't heard a single negative thing about him.

As a general manager... well, it's a mixed bag. Objectively, he won nothing in Toronto. Personally I'm fine with his body of work overall, and thought he did well around this year's trade deadline. He has given this core a lot of different tools to succeed, and I think the players and the coaching staff bear the greatest responsibility for this year's elimination.

But he is not without his faults. His loyalty to the core players, and his refusal to look at the essential elements of the team more critically could be legitimately criticized as a shortcoming. Taking a staple gun and trying to nail character and grit onto the club, around the fringes, hasn't been a winning formula in Toronto.

He did a great job finding cheap talent around the edges (Bunting, McCabe), but he sort of put himself in that predicament with some of the contracts that were handed out (though he and club were arguably shagged, in part, by a stagnating salary cap). It's a common theme, where he seems to be always navigating a cap bind of his own creation, whether it's looking for a top nine player that fits the salary structure or whether its moving off from an ugly contract he signed or acquired.

He became somewhat predictable, and that's both a compliment and a criticism. Probably in the minority to say I liked him overall. Best of luck in Pittsburgh.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Dubas overpaid them, and then didn't built around them properly. It's simple.

You can get away with overplaying players, if you build around them properly. Dubas did not.

Dubas was handed:

Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Connor Brown, Hyman, Kapanen all on ELC's
Kadri making 4.5M
Rielly making 5M

The Leafs would gladly take that team back for the team Dubas left us with.

That's why people are upset with Dubas. He left the team worse than he was given it.

I'm not seeing how that is even possible. Sometimes a team has some good contract values and those values are obviously unsustainable because those players are inevitably going to earn more in their next contract negotiation based on market values.

How exactly was Dubas supposed to convince all those guys who left to take far less than they eventually got?

 

[MikeyMike01]

I think a couple things can be true.

COVID hurt the Leafs probably more than any other team. They banked on the cap going up. They signed Tavares and worked to keep AM, MM and WN under contract during the prime years of the Tavares contract with the understanding that by now, as a % of the cap those deals would largely be fine.

You can criticize Dubas for not adjusting the strategy but to be fair, I think they still made the best decisions they could. They can't move JT, they shouldn't move AM, and WN is under a bargain contract for the on-ice value he provides. You're left with Marner - and the question is, are you better trading Marner and reallocating his cap space or keeping him? Based on what I expect the return would be, I would bet that the on-ice value Marner provides is better.

Its not as simple as "well, adjust" when the adjustments available are worse. Dubas built teams that set franchise records in points, the idea the result would have been different just by offloading Marner or Nylander for something else, while possible, to me isn't any more likely than running it back.

I think Pittsburgh is in good hands - Dubas is an above average GM in this league who is only going to get better his second time around. I think the task in Pittsburgh is much harder, but i'm excited to see how he puts his stamp on that roster.

Even if the cap went up, the contracts he gave to RFAs (who have minimal leverage) were still horrendous. Especially Matthews.

 

[TKalltheTime]

After a lot of reflection I am pretty shocked at what Kyle Dubas did to Brendan Shanahan.

Shanny hired him as AGM of the Leafs with very little experience, and not a lot of success in the Soo. Then when it looks like KD is getting groomed by COL, he cuts ties with both Mark Hunter and Lou Lamoriello to make Dubas the GM.

Shanny supported him through contract failures to playoff failures. He allowed Kyle to go with his plan year after year to "run it back". He allowed Kyle to build a team consisting of Soo Greyhounds and skilled/soft players. He allowed Kyle to have his own trusted coach in place too.

Shanny was even going to extend him after 1 playoff series win in 5 years.

How does Dubas show his gratitude? He used his family as ponds in a play to gain Presidential-like autonomy with Toronto. He also asked for more money after not being sure of his commitment and his family issues (hoping that his PIT offer would give him plenty of leverage in a negotiation).

He's betrayed Shanny in the worst way. I also think he's a big time Phoney. A true Careerist Weasel Mook Jabroni.

Soon enough it will be clear to the fans too.

I will guarantee one thing:

He will never work in TORONTO ever again. Not at any capacity: Management, Media, Scout, etc.


Good luck Pittsburgh. He's your problem now.

Hmmm, interesting… do tell

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Dubas has a good reputation as an executive and I expect he will be well-received within the Penguins organization. As a manager of people, I haven't heard a single negative thing about him.

As a general manager... well, it's a mixed bag. Objectively, he won nothing in Toronto. Personally I'm fine with his body of work overall, and thought he did well around this year's trade deadline. He has given this core a lot of different tools to succeed, and I think the players and the coaching staff bear the greatest responsibility for this year's elimination.

But he is not without his faults. His loyalty to the core players, and his refusal to look at the essential elements of the team more critically could be legitimately criticized as a shortcoming. Taking a staple gun and trying to nail character and grit onto the club, around the fringes, hasn't been a winning formula in Toronto.

He did a great job finding cheap talent around the edges (Bunting, McCabe), but he sort of put himself in that predicament with some of the contracts that were handed out (though he and club were arguably shagged, in part, by a stagnating salary cap). It's a common theme, where he seems to be always navigating a cap bind of his own creation, whether it's looking for a top nine player that fits the salary structure or whether its moving off from an ugly contract he signed or acquired.

He became somewhat predictable, and that's both a compliment and a criticism. Probably in the minority to say I liked him overall. Best of luck in Pittsburgh.

I mean let’s be real - The last Gm that won anything in Toronto was Punch Imlach.

What do you consider winning anything after 1967 if that’s your main measuring stick? Dubas did what he could with the roster, not to mention meddling he ended up having to endure. But the ways he brought the leaves into forward thinking and positive changes in the hockey ops side - the job he’s hired for in Pittsburgh, he’s easily been one of the best at it with constantly looking to improve those areas to put in good processes and people.

He’s not the Gm and I don’t think he was ever really wanting that role vs being a president etc or the role he’s in now which Toronto was never going to give him.

It didn’t work in Toronto, both sides moved on. There were pros and cons like any GM and their situation.

I just want to see if he has the guys to fire Sullivan like the two other GMs never seemed to be allowed to do while Dubas is actually given full reign.

On a side note - the most petty and pathetic things ever written in hockey media is currently the narrative Yohe and Rossi keep pushing about Hextall and oddly enough, this weird romanticism about Dubas and the things he will do.