Proposal: Free agency edition Trade Rumours/Proposals [MOD - Stay on Topic] 5

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I would argue he is more physical and he wasn't always terrible defensively. It seems the entire team is terrible on the defensive end right now, so I find it hard to single him out for that. I would prefer to see him in a new system with a new coach before I trade him and his good contract for cents on the dollar right now.

That's fair. I guess what I'm saying is the sum of the parts is basically a Hoffman esque player. Hoff's deficiencies never really hurt the team when they were good, it was when they were bad you saw him giving up on plays, etc. I see Bath the same way.

That said, I do think he'll be a candidate to be moved if they do want to shuffle the core/sub-core around a bit this summer. It'd be interesting to know how he's viewed around the league and if his value really has cratered as much as we assume.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

He's another Hoffman, granted with less speed and skill, but more size and vision. Hoffman had lots of big moments here and contributed to a winning team. No reason we can't squeeze some juice out of Bath when it counts. Guys like that can be fine, and valuable when worked in to a roster the right way.


That's kind of Dorion's MO. Give up valuable assets with long roads of control left to make a big trade for a player with uncertainty around the corner. Brassard, Duchene, DeBrincat, Chychrun all immediately come to mind. I'm sure there's more.

We have seen Batherson bring a lot more to the table. There are signs when a team needs a coaching change. This team is flashing them every game
the team needs a hard coach to right the ship. I would look at it like that if I am Staios vs hire a coach that will be here as long as Smith has.
It has to be righted and there will be some fat lower lips in the process.

 

[2CHAINZ]

That's fair. I guess what I'm saying is the sum of the parts is basically a Hoffman esque player. Hoff's deficiencies never really hurt the team when they were good, it was when they were bad you saw him giving up on plays, etc. I see Bath the same way.

That said, I do think he'll be a candidate to be moved if they do want to shuffle the core/sub-core around a bit this summer. It'd be interesting to know how he's viewed around the league and if his value really has cratered as much as we assume.

Ya, I just don't see Bath giving up on plays like Hoffman did. Bath looks more lost, but so does the whole team. I don't think Batherson's value has tanked. I think teams will take him in a heartbeat but will try to pry him off of us for cheap. Batherson is at least hard on the forecheck most of the time and will throw the body on opposing defenders.

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

I can't help but feel responsible for eliciting Dorion type discussions in unrelated threads due to my avatar and username.

I apologize if this is the case.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

We have seen Batherson bring a lot more to the table. There are signs when a team needs a coaching change. This team is flashing them every game
the team needs a hard coach to right the ship. I would look at it like that if I am Staios vs hire a coach that will be here as long as Smith has.
It has to be righted and there will be some fat lower lips in the process.

I agree completely. Re-reading my posts it probably comes off like criticism, but it's actually my argument for him still having value. Hoffman provided this team a ton of value at the best of times, lots of clutch moments, and because of his deficiencies, never got top dollar either. I think Batherson can still be a good piece even if flawed.

Ya, I just don't see Bath giving up on plays like Hoffman did. Bath looks more lost, but so does the whole team. I don't think Batherson's value has tanked. I think teams will take him in a heartbeat but will try to pry him off of us for cheap. Batherson is at least hard on the forecheck most of the time and will throw the body on opposing defenders.

You don't? I think we'd have to disagree on that one. I feel like I've seen it a lot out of him. Or at least an effort that looked so bad he might as well have given up on the play. Lots of little half ass stick waves at a guy, soft giveaways, lack of battle. Lots of little details missed imo.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I agree completely. Re-reading my posts it probably comes off like criticism, but it's actually my argument for him still having value. Hoffman provided this team a ton of value at the best of times, lots of clutch moments, and because of his deficiencies, never got top dollar either. I think Batherson can still be a good piece even if flawed.

Oddly enough Hoffman really seemed to succeed under Boucher where there was a ton of structure.

 

[2CHAINZ]

You don't? I think we'd have to disagree on that one. I feel like I've seen it a lot out of him. Or at least an effort that looked so bad he might as well have given up on the play.

I have noticed the entire team looking like that. I can't sit here and single out Batherson; the terrible defensive play looks like a team effort to me. All of our wingers seem to blow the zone way too often, and they all look lost in the defensive zone. On top of all that, all of our wingers seem to dump the puck in and just give it away over 50% of the time.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I have noticed the entire team looking like that. I can't sit here and single out Batherson; the terrible defensive play looks like a team effort to me. All of our wingers seem to blow the zone way too often, and they all look lost in the defensive zone. On top of all that, all of our wingers seem to dump the puck in and just give it away over 50% of the time.

There was a huge difference in the Panthers Dzone and breakout compared to Ottawa's wrt to supporting the breakout with quick short pass outlets.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Oddly enough Hoffman really seemed to succeed under Boucher where there was a ton of structure.

For sure. Guys like that have a history in sport of polarizing talents being used properly by good coaches.

Andy Reid almost won a super bowl with Terrell Owens as his far and away best player.

I have noticed the entire team looking like that. I can't sit here and single out Batherson; the terrible defensive play looks like a team effort to me. All of our wingers seem to blow the zone way too often, and they all look lost in the defensive zone. On top of all that, all of our wingers seem to dump the puck in and just give it away over 50% of the time.

I don't disagree about a lot of the team, but I still feel like he's a different animal. I see more of it out of him than anyone else, and if often looks very listless to me like he's unconcerned with losing yet another battle.

 

[Beech]

I think value wise its fine. With the help of some hindsight I think the timing is off. I also don't like giving up 2 high first rounders in back to back years . It looks premature. I prefer the Chychrun move to the DeBrincat one. I think I would have preferred to keep the picks at this point

85 M cap.. roughly 50% of revenue. So a hypothetical middle team needs 170 M revenue.

The Ottawa Senators, and generating between 140 and 150 M. It means you loose 20-30 M...
And you are the Ottawa Senators, a laughing stock. You play in front of 16 K (in a Canadian Market!!!!!)

A team is for sale.. you need to bolster its value... A previous owner who uttered FYOUS in 2021 and beyond. And is now eating crow and looking like a bigger idiot. You get desperate.. start making moves that you think will invigorate the fan base and get asses in seats.. This is how you get the Debrincate trade and the Chyc trade. And when they occurred.

When Murray went: Chabot, White, Gagne and Chlapik in 2015 and we saw 3 of the 4 fail. And the 3rd be overpaid and underwhelming
When Dorion went: Brown, Dahlen and both bombed
When Dorion went: Bower, Forementon and one bombed, the other!!! well, let us leave that one alone
When Dorion went: Tkachuk, JBD, Tychonic and you have one star, One marginal and one bomb
When Dorion went: Tomspon, Pinto, Sogaard and one bombed, one made it, but injuries and love of the other gaming!! and the 3rd is at best a TBD

It is how you end up in 2022 desperate to invigorate fans and in March 2023, even more desperate to invigorate fans.

The decisions and their timing, are easy to understand.. How you allowed 5 years of shit? is not.

14 picks in R1 and R2.. has produced
1 star
1 overpaid, underwhelming
1 #7 D man
1 backup goalie (maybe)
1 3rd line center, who likes the ponies
1 3rd line winger who likes p***y and is lucky to not be in jail
1 bust who is in jail
7 busts...luckily they stayed out of jail

 

[2CHAINZ]

There was a huge difference in the Panthers Dzone and breakout compared to Ottawa's wrt to supporting the breakout with quick short pass outlets.

It's just comical at this point and how many times our breakout is a pass to a winger behind two of the opposing team players stopped at their blue line. Our transition has been just as brutal as our defensive structure.

I don't disagree about a lot of the team, but I still feel like he's a different animal. I see more of it out of him than anyone else, and if often looks very listless to me like he's unconcerned with losing yet another battle.

Maybe I need to pay more attention I haven't noticed him being so much worse than the others.

 

[Big Muddy]

I'd much rather read some analysis of the trades and picks that got us here. Some thoughts on how the young core was forced to progress through the rebuild and how Dorion helped that process along than to read the arguing and criticism of posters and content because a small group that can't handle any criticism of the team get ruffled. There was a lot going on and wrong with this franchise for many years.. How we got here, where do we go from here in trying to fill in this roster with players that can form a team and play playoff style hockey are all good discussions.

Won't anybody think about the children? LOL.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

It's just comical at this point and how many times our breakout is a pass to a winger behind two of the opposing team players stopped at their blue line. Our transition has been just as brutal as our defensive structure.

Maybe I need to pay more attention I haven't noticed him being so much worse than the others.

Well, or I could just be wrong, just my opinion, but I do feel like he's one of the guys that deserves some criticism for it specifically. It's the way in which I see it happen and how he responds that I feel like stands out to me. There is a lack of willingness to dig deep and battle imo.

 

[Big Muddy]

Trading Forsberg is really not going to move the needle much. If the Sens make a trade it's got to be big to make a difference. I would suggest Batherson as he has good value as an offensive player. But at the same time you ask for a much better defensive forward back that can chip in 10-15 goals. Give me another player like Joseph right now and the Sens are better off both performance wise and salary wise. And I would consider dumping Norris as well but his value is pretty low right now so the return would be poor.

Yes, backup goalies typically don't get a big return, but Forsberg has been a starter and had at least one good year with us and Edmonton is pretty desperate. Not sure what the best return from Forsberg could be.

I'm not sure the Senators would even move him at this point unless they are really happy with Sogaard and his development.

And, I'm trying to create a more friendly environment for some of our more sensitive types. We'll see if they even participate. Or, to make the same point in a different way, won't anybody think about the children.

 

[2CHAINZ]

Well, or I could just be wrong, just my opinion, but I do feel like he's one of the guys that deserves some criticism for it specifically. It's the way in which I see it happen and how he responds that I feel like stands out to me. There is a lack of willingness to dig deep and battle imo.

To me, you're literally describing the entire team. There seems to be a collective lack of awareness and competitive effort, especially in the defensive zone. I will make a conscious effort to really focus on observing Batherson in upcoming games. I could be totally wrong, and he could very well be the worst offender. Regardless, I think our best course of action is a new coach and a new system before we ship out players we have signed for years to come.

Also, anyone notice how BankStreet demanded we stop talking about Dorion, and when the subject changed, he was nowhere to be found? It's like he only posts on here to tell people to stop talking about things he doesn't like.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

To me, you're literally describing the entire team. There seems to be a collective lack of awareness and competitive effort, especially in the defensive zone. I will make a conscious effort to really focus on observing Batherson in upcoming games. I could be totally wrong, and he could very well be the worst offender. Regardless, I think our best course of action is a new coach and a new system before we ship out players we have signed for years to come.

Also, anyone notice how BankStreet demanded we stop talking about Dorion, and when the subject changed, he was nowhere to be found? It's like he only posts on here to tell people to stop talking about things he doesn't like.

I would agree we shouldn't ship him off. It's more of a prediction of mine that he is a prime candidate than it is my own desire. I was a big Hoffman fan, so as wacky as it sounds, take this as an endorsement lol.

And yes. It's like this with certain posters on every forum I circulate. Waahhh you guys and your off topic is ruining everything, take it elsewhere! Then those threads are just left with tumbleweeds and crickets as if it wasn't going off topic because nobody had anything to say that was technically on topic. Obviously there's a line, but just bring it back on topic if you wish and carry on is always the best strategy over that imo.

 

[GCK]

The team is floundering and doing poorly. This is a CURRENT event. It's not surprising that people are talking about how we ended up in this mess.

We got here because Melnyk was a penny pinching tightwad. No need to dig any deeper.

 

[Big Muddy]

We got here because Melnyk was a penny pinching tightwad. No need to dig any deeper.

I know & agree, but the context of my post was a response to another poster's complaining.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

We got here because Melnyk was a penny pinching tightwad. No need to dig any deeper.

If only that had been his only issues he brought with him. But ya, the cheapness didn't just lead to lesser rosters, but also things like Dorion being put in charge.

 

[GCK]

If only that had been his only issues he brought with him. But ya, the cheapness didn't just lead to lesser rosters, but also things like Dorion being put in charge.

- Went cheap on the GM and coaching staff.
- Didn’t hire support for cheap GM
- Spent assets to reduce costs
- Didn’t even scout some countries during the “rebuild”

 

[DueDiligence]

After we lose Tarasenko, we have no top six wingers if you trade Batherson. Defense can be taught; being able to score goals and put up points cannot be taught. If you move on from Batherson, we will be looking for a winger because we have no winger depth or prospects. I would prefer to see these players play under a new coach and new system before I make a knee-jerk trade.

I agree and my view is that we need to get a GM , then a new coach then make some significant player deals in the offseason. I 'd love to replace DJ right now but if you do that takes away a huge element a new GM has control over. That is unless DJ is replaced internally but then what's the point because the Sens don't have "that" guy.

 

[DueDiligence]

I would argue he is more physical, and he wasn't always terrible defensively. It seems the entire team is terrible on the defensive end right now, so I find it hard to single him out for that. I would prefer to see him in a new system with a new coach before I trade him and his good contract for cents on the dollar right now. Also, we have no wingers to replace him with, so if we trade him, we will be looking for a winger to score.

last year Batherson was a -35 worst on the team. This year -6 second worst on the team.
All things point to the fact that his good 21-22 season before he got hurt was an outlier.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Batherson never struck me as that promising a prospect. I thought I had been wrong when he looked like a legit star in the making before getting hurt.

Now I am back to thinking I was right. He isn't that good.

 

[DueDiligence]

Batherson never struck me as that promising a prospect. I thought I had been wrong when he looked like a legit star in the making before getting hurt.

Now I am back to thinking I was right. He isn't that good.

Good offense, bad defense and lackadaisical. His compete level is up and down like a toilet seat.

 

[BUCKLE UP]

Batherson never struck me as that promising a prospect. I thought I had been wrong when he looked like a legit star in the making before getting hurt.

Now I am back to thinking I was right. He isn't that good.

I felt the exact same way until Matt Duchene got my hopes up and said something along the lines of "this kid is gonna be real good" and I'm still waiting for that to happen lol