Proposal: Free agency edition Trade Rumours/Proposals [MOD - Stay on Topic] 5

[PlayOn]

I cannot at this point fathom running it back with 90% of the players Dorion assembled and expecting a quick turnaround.

This team has at no point shown that they are capable of finding that level of success as a group.

Yes, they have had stretches of dominant play, but it's never sustained, is it? They have, in the back half of this season alone, proven to themselves and us that they understand what it takes to win, only to falter spectacularly immediately afterwards.

Whatever the reason (bad makeup, bad habits from DJ they can't shake, a lack of buy in to JMs preaching), this team as assembled just isn't finding enough success on a week to week basis for us to be a good team.

Idk what the answer is anymore, but I cannot believe it lies in trying this group out again next year with only a handful of roster changes.

I get it and by all means, if there’s a deal that makes sense, make it. I’m just not really a big fan of trading a core piece just to change the mix and say you did something.

I think a good coach (to start the season, and not after everyone’s morale is in the gutter), legit goalie and top 4 RD would go a long way for this group. I’ve seen enough under Jacques to believe we aren’t as bad as our record indicates.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Chychrun is very, very bad on the right. He's not needed for offense, and not needed for defense. There is no role, or need, for him in Ottawa. Spending 7.5+ on a guy who is being put in the wrong position, not on PP1 or PK1, and not relied on at even strength makes very little sense.

If we sign him longterm with the thought of putting him on the right side, we may as well pack it in. That's a ton of money, for a player not suited for the role, and not needed. It makes so little sense

And I still think strong coaching and strong team game helps everyone. Including chychrun or any player playing their off side. Playing your offside in the pre Jacques era must have been scary.

Maybe we just have three pairs that can move and we get two good RDs. Not great RDs to play with chabot and chychrun.

But this is all discussion. I’m well aware chychrun will be moved

 

[Mark Stones Spleen]

It's funny, when I was saying this back in late October/early November, I got a ton of push-back saying I was making excuses for DJ, that I was a shill for management, and whatever other usual bullshit. Here we are months later still talking about the same damn thing. Jacques Martin is a better coach than DJ, yet the goalies still have the same goddamn stats they did under DJ.

Goalie	GP w/ DJ	Sv% w/ DJ	GAA w/ DJ	GP w/ Martin	Sv% w/ Martin	GAA w/ Martin
Korpisalo	17	.892	3.50	22	.882	3.34
Forsberg	11	.876	3.23	10	.902	3.27

Slight regression in sv% for Korpisalo with a slight improvement in GAA.
Good improvement in sv% for Forsberg with a slight decrease in GAA.
More or less, almost identical stat lines.

The teams head-to-head under the 2 coaches:

Coach	Games Played	Wins	Losses	P%	Goal Differential	GF/GP	GA/GP	PP%	PK%
DJ	26	11	15	.423	-2	3.35	3.42	17.8	72.4
Martin	31	14	14	.500	-13	3.26	3.68	15.2	75.0

Worth noting that DJ didn't have Pinto in his lineup, Chabot only played 9/26, Zub missed 7, Greig missed 10.
Under Martin, Chabot played 26/31, Zub missed 6.
And yet across the board, this team is worse in most categories under Martin. Healthier lineup, more defensively focused, longer stretch of games than DJ and somehow stats are down in most major categories. No, this is not an indictment of Martin or a validation of DJ. This is an introspection of a season that couldn't be more f***ing confusing.

One coach had 5 training camps and 4.5 years to do something. The other had 2 months to remove the previous coach's stink.

Previous goalies under DJ have flourished before and/or after playing under him. Talbot and Gus are good goalies after they leave. Korpi is just dog shit. He's the lone example of someone who sucks under everyone. Hasek would be fine under JM and still be bad under DJ.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

It's funny, when I was saying this back in late October/early November, I got a ton of push-back saying I was making excuses for DJ, that I was a shill for management, and whatever other usual bullshit. Here we are months later still talking about the same damn thing. Jacques Martin is a better coach than DJ, yet the goalies still have the same goddamn stats they did under DJ.

Goalie	GP w/ DJ	Sv% w/ DJ	GAA w/ DJ	GP w/ Martin	Sv% w/ Martin	GAA w/ Martin
Korpisalo	17	.892	3.50	22	.882	3.34
Forsberg	11	.876	3.23	10	.902	3.27

Slight regression in sv% for Korpisalo with a slight improvement in GAA.
Good improvement in sv% for Forsberg with a slight decrease in GAA.
More or less, almost identical stat lines.

The teams head-to-head under the 2 coaches:

Coach	Games Played	Wins	Losses	P%	Goal Differential	GF/GP	GA/GP	PP%	PK%
DJ	26	11	15	.423	-2	3.35	3.42	17.8	72.4
Martin	31	14	14	.500	-13	3.26	3.68	15.2	75.0

Worth noting that DJ didn't have Pinto in his lineup, Chabot only played 9/26, Zub missed 7, Greig missed 10.
Under Martin, Chabot played 26/31, Zub missed 6.
And yet across the board, this team is worse in most categories under Martin. Healthier lineup, more defensively focused, longer stretch of games than DJ and somehow stats are down in most major categories. No, this is not an indictment of Martin or a validation of DJ. This is an introspection of a season that couldn't be more f***ing confusing.

Even when DJ was coach the goalies were bad. But under a massive improvement in basically every player not named chychrun under Jacques.

But the goalies suck ass. They have been truly truly terrible for both coaches

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

Before last year, it took a few seasons of EK being bad and the Senators hitting a home run on multiple pieces from the trade before fans kind of moved on from Karlsson. We had to get a 1st overall tier talent, and Karlsson had to be a cap albatross for people to accept the situation. That is a pretty steep cost.

People will move on from Brady easier because with Karlsson, there was a perception that Melnyk's difficulties were the reason he left. With Brady, if he ever walks or gets traded, speculation will be that he is a Tkachuk and that's what they do. Also, insulting the fan base's adversity for the boos hurt his perception with a lot of people. I think people will be disappointed because he was supposed to be the guy who lead this rebuild into however many years of whatever kind of success, but I think they will move on much easier than with Karlsson. It will be that Brady left (if he goes), not that he was pushed out. Garrioch will earn his pay with this one, if it ever happens.

Ultimately, while the Senators failed to become a contender under Karlsson, they still had those two memorable runs (Hamburglar regular season run where every game felt like playoffs, and 2017 conference final). They also had a few playoff appearances, including 2013 against the Canadiens, which was fantastic. This current core has done absolutely nothing. Whether or not that is their fault or the fault of Melnyk/Dorion, it doesn't matter at this point. The point is that fans aren't going to be as attached to a core that has done nothing versus a core that gave them some great memories, even if they only came every second season...

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Bolded - LOL.

Doubt if we win that game the way the team played even if the goalie made a couple more stops in the 1st period. JMHO.

As a general comment, better goaltending would definitely help us though

Stutzle was left in alone with saros twice. Not a Nashville defender or back checker to be found. Those could have been goals. But it’s more the overall theme of the season. And how our goaltending has warped what the theme should be

 

[Relapsing]

People were pissed at the return since Norris was projected to be a 2nd liner, demelo was a throw in and the first was supposed to be a late one. The deal and moving on became a lot easier when demelo worked with Chabot, Norris did better than expected and we got stutzle

But yeah I'm the one revising history

Maybe you should re-read the way you phrased your statement?

We didn't trade EK because the 3rd OA pick was given back. We got lucky as shit that SJs 1st became 3rd OA. We traded EK because the situation with this team became untenable (Melnyk wasn't going to pay him what he wanted/this team fell the f*** apart).

People were pissed at the return because team ownership and management backed themselves into a corner like a pair of dunces, and somehow fell upwards when SJ shit the bed.

 

[PlayOn]

Before last year, it took a few seasons of EK being bad and the Senators hitting a home run on multiple pieces from the trade before fans kind of moved on from Karlsson. We had to get a 1st overall tier talent, and Karlsson had to be a cap albatross for people to accept the situation. That is a pretty steep cost.

People will move on from Brady easier because with Karlsson, there was a perception that Melnyk's difficulties were the reason he left. With Brady, if he ever walks or gets traded, speculation will be that he is a Tkachuk and that's what they do. Also, insulting the fan base's adversity for the boos hurt his perception with a lot of people. I think people will be disappointed because he was supposed to be the guy who lead this rebuild into however many years of whatever kind of success, but I think they will move on much easier than with Karlsson. It will be that Brady left (if he goes), not that he was pushed out. Garrioch will earn his pay with this one, if it ever happens.

Ultimately, while the Senators failed to become a contender under Karlsson, they still had those two memorable runs (Hamburglar regular season run where every game felt like playoffs, and 2017 conference final). They also had a few playoff appearances, including 2013 against the Canadiens, which was fantastic. This current core has done absolutely nothing. Whether or not that is their fault or the fault of Melnyk/Dorion, it doesn't matter at this point. The point is that fans aren't going to be as attached to a core that has done nothing versus a core that gave them some great memories, even if they only came every second season...

It’s not even about Brady. It would be about the fact that after seven years of sucking were going backwards. Trading Karlsson felt pretty crappy but objectively we weren’t going anywhere with Melnyk at the helm and a rebuild had its own allure, it was just terrible how it all went down.

I don’t necessarily have a ton of hope Brady would resign here as a UFA, but moving him now without the team ever having found any type of success for so long is just the worst outcome.

Anyway, I don’t think he will be moved, but not much we can do either way so let’s see how it plays out.

 

[Bileur]

You remind me of my old high school girlfriend who would lowkey drop that she might kill herself if I ever left her. Rest her soul.

I shall henceforth refer to you as 'Calamity Gil'.

 

[BankStreetParade]

One coach had 5 training camps and 4.5 years to do something. The other had 2 months to remove the previous coach's stink.

Previous goalies under DJ have flourished before and/or after playing under him. Talbot and Gus are good goalies after they leave. Korpi is just dog shit. He's the lone example of someone who sucks under everyone. Hasek would be fine under JM and still be bad under DJ.

Ok and one of those coaches has 1300+ games of head coaching experience in the league, spanning almost 40 years. Why is that an excuse for how this team has regressed across most major stats?

Here's the St. Louis Blues before/after Berube.

Coach	GP	P%	GD	GF/GP	GA/GP	PP	PK
Berube	28	.482	-14	2.82	3.32	8.4	78.5
Bannister	31	.565	-2	2.97	3.03	24.5	80.5

Here's the Minnesota Wild before/after Evason.

Coach	GP	P%	GD	GF/GP	GA/GP	PP	PK
Evason	19	.368	-19	2.95	3.95	16.2	66.7
Hynes	40	.600	+10	3.23	2.98	25.6	78.8

Here's the Edmonton Oilers before/after Woodcroft.

Coach	GP	P%	GD	GF/GP	GA/GP	PP	PK
Woodcroft	13	.269	-16	2.69	3.92	23.9	70.0
Knoblauch	43	.733	+47	3.81	2.72	28.7	83.2

None of these coaches had training camps before they took over. All of them have improved their teams in all of these major categories. So why the f*** is Ottawa different?

 

[dumbdick]

Too far?

 

[Relapsing]

Ok and one of those coaches has 1300+ games of head coaching experience in the league, spanning almost 40 years. Why is that an excuse for how this team has regressed across most major stats?

Here's the St. Louis Blues before/after Berube.

Coach	GP	P%	GD	GF/GP	GA/GP	PP	PK
Berube	28	.482	-14	2.82	3.32	8.4	78.5
Bannister	31	.565	-2	2.97	3.03	24.5	80.5

Here's the Minnesota Wild before/after Evason.

Coach	GP	P%	GD	GF/GP	GA/GP	PP	PK
Evason	19	.368	-19	2.95	3.95	16.2	66.7
Hynes	40	.600	+10	3.23	2.98	25.6	78.8

Here's the Edmonton Oilers before/after Woodcroft.

Coach	GP	P%	GD	GF/GP	GA/GP	PP	PK
Woodcroft	13	.269	-16	2.69	3.92	23.9	70.0
Knoblauch	43	.733	+47	3.81	2.72	28.7	83.2

None of these coaches had training camps before they took over. All of them have improved their teams in all of these major categories. So why the f*** is Ottawa different?

It's the players dawg

 

[dumbdick]

One coach had 5 training camps and 4.5 years to do something. The other had 2 months to remove the previous coach's stink.

Previous goalies under DJ have flourished before and/or after playing under him. Talbot and Gus are good goalies after they leave. Korpi is just dog shit. He's the lone example of someone who sucks under everyone. Hasek would be fine under JM and still be bad under DJ.

View attachment 826678

This implies that most goalies that suck in general wouldn't suck under DJ.

Sir, update your Venn Diagram game.

 

[branch]

Ok and one of those coaches has 1300+ games of head coaching experience in the league, spanning almost 40 years. Why is that an excuse for how this team has regressed across most major stats?

Here's the St. Louis Blues before/after Berube.

Coach	GP	P%	GD	GF/GP	GA/GP	PP	PK
Berube	28	.482	-14	2.82	3.32	8.4	78.5
Bannister	31	.565	-2	2.97	3.03	24.5	80.5

Here's the Minnesota Wild before/after Evason.

Coach	GP	P%	GD	GF/GP	GA/GP	PP	PK
Evason	19	.368	-19	2.95	3.95	16.2	66.7
Hynes	40	.600	+10	3.23	2.98	25.6	78.8

Here's the Edmonton Oilers before/after Woodcroft.

Coach	GP	P%	GD	GF/GP	GA/GP	PP	PK
Woodcroft	13	.269	-16	2.69	3.92	23.9	70.0
Knoblauch	43	.733	+47	3.81	2.72	28.7	83.2

None of these coaches had training camps before they took over. All of them have improved their teams in all of these major categories. So why the f*** is Ottawa different?

A very very dumb and myopic man built the team. Did such a bad job and was fired and left in disgrace. What you are seeing now is the result of that, That's all you need to know, there's really not much more to look at. It's going to take some doing I think we are going to see another full tear down

 

[Micklebot]

Ok and one of those coaches has 1300+ games of head coaching experience in the league, spanning almost 40 years. Why is that an excuse for how this team has regressed across most major stats?

Here's the St. Louis Blues before/after Berube.

Coach	GP	P%	GD	GF/GP	GA/GP	PP	PK
Berube	28	.482	-14	2.82	3.32	8.4	78.5
Bannister	31	.565	-2	2.97	3.03	24.5	80.5

Here's the Minnesota Wild before/after Evason.

Coach	GP	P%	GD	GF/GP	GA/GP	PP	PK
Evason	19	.368	-19	2.95	3.95	16.2	66.7
Hynes	40	.600	+10	3.23	2.98	25.6	78.8

Here's the Edmonton Oilers before/after Woodcroft.

Coach	GP	P%	GD	GF/GP	GA/GP	PP	PK
Woodcroft	13	.269	-16	2.69	3.92	23.9	70.0
Knoblauch	43	.733	+47	3.81	2.72	28.7	83.2

None of these coaches had training camps before they took over. All of them have improved their teams in all of these major categories. So why the f*** is Ottawa different?

So, when discussing coaching bumps, I think it's important to understand why the team is underperforming.

Is it the system? With a guy like Berube, it likely isn't the system since that same system worked prior. Same with Woodcroft, and Evanson.

Is it the Roster? Certainly not with Edm, I'll familiar with changes in StL and Min.

Is it a case of the players tuning out the coach? This one is certainly not the case with DJ, reports are the players actually took it hard when he was dismissed,


Now, if the reason is the system, or the roster, you may not see immediate results. On the other hand, if the team has tuned out their coach, and aren't following the system, then a new voice can have immediate impact.

When Martin came in, it wasn't met with an influx of energy and renewed spirit, so the short term bump didn't happen. Instead we have to rely on the longer term advantages of a coaching change.

 

[HF Reader]

I know making the wrong move is worse than making no move but I think Staios has had enough time to get an idea of what's wrong with the team and what needs to be done to improve it.


He needs to start making moves. Expecting them to all be done on deadline day is unrealistic.

I agree but as you know it takes a willing trade partner. Staios has little if any negotiating leverage. My guess is that he is and has been trying.

 

[bert]

Why would we want to sign him? He's a completely redundant piece and not needed on the roster whatsoever

Actually creates a very bad build for the roster

People talk about roster construction and want to keep Chychrun and Chabot. I can't wrap my head around it.

 

[Der Jaeger]

Sabres fan. Reading through your thread, goaltending is a big need for your team.

What other needs do you have? What positions do you not need?

Thanks in advance

 

[Icelevel]

Some of you are feeding into the BS.
Stop it you look dumb and it doesn’t help

 

[Burrowsaurus]

People talk about roster construction and want to keep Chychrun and Chabot. I can't wrap my head around it.

I’m not bitching about roster construction.

If our goalies were half ass we wouldn’t be so focused on something such as roster construction. (Teams that are not optimally built make the playofffs too)

Some of you are feeding into the BS.
Stop it you look dumb and it doesn’t help

Be more specific when I see posts like this they’re usually about me but I have to make sure.

 

[bert]

I’m not bitching about roster construction.

If our goalies were half ass we wouldn’t be so focused on something such as roster construction. (Teams that are not optimally built make the playofffs too)


Be more specific when I see posts like this they’re usually about me but I have to make sure.

You can't tie up 20+ million on 3 left d men. It's not complicated.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Sabres fan. Reading through your thread, goaltending is a big need for your team.

What other needs do you have? What positions do you not need?

Thanks in advance

RD. Two way middle sixer. Revamped fourth line.

 

[Icelevel]

Sabres fan. Reading through your thread, goaltending is a big need for your team.

What other needs do you have? What positions do you not need?

Thanks in advance

We need TWO things. A big strong solid two way RD and a top goalie.
That’s it.

I’m not bitching about roster construction.

If our goalies were half ass we wouldn’t be so focused on something such as roster construction. (Teams that are not optimally built make the playofffs too)


Be more specific when I see posts like this they’re usually about me but I have to make sure.

Idk are you one of the people freaking out cause we have to trade everyone now?

 

[Burrowsaurus]

You can't tie up 20+ million on 3 left d men. It's not complicated.

You can. You can’t. Depends on where the cap is. If a goalie can save 905 and the rest of the team is well coached it’s not the end of the world.

We need TWO things. A big strong solid two way RD and a top goalie.
That’s it.


Idk are you one of the people freaking out cause we have to trade everyone now?

Oh no

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I don't see what's changed other than probably needing to accept and work around Josh being gone long term. We knew a run was an incredible long shot, but hopefully things don't deteriorate too much.

Deadline shedding and pick up the pieces in the summer.