Five members from Canada’s 2018 world junior team (Hart, McLeod, Dube, Foote and Formenton) told to surrender to police, facing sexual assault charges

[Jmo89]

I'm not going to argue with a guy trying to defend alleged rapists against street justice lol.

That's not really what he was saying though, and you know it.

Off-topic and not directly related to this case: I used to be on the side of letting what happens in jail go on as a sense of "street justice" but that's not usually how it plays out. Rape in jail is a huge problem and very often happens to non-violent offenders. Gangs and crooked prison guards are not doling out justice because they care about victims. They're doing it for the same reasons people sexually assault outside of jail. (I don't know how to do a spoiler button, but included a story below.)

One example in the sea of thousands was a young guy by the name of Daniel Williams in Alabama. You may have heard of him as his story got pretty big late last year. 22 years old serving a 1 year sentence for property theft. He was due to be released in 2 weeks but instead was tortured, tied up, and sexually assaulted for the last two days of his life by a prison gang. Its more often than not people like that who face this kind of "street justice."

 

[CascadiaPuck]

I really don't see anyone refusing to believe them. I see people saying innocent unless proven guilty. Rapists should be dealt with as harshly as the laws allow. If and when PROVEN guilty. There is a massive difference. People lie on all sides. So why should anyone take her "word" for it and persecute another person before the courts have done their thing?

I’m not saying I know how to fix this, but the fundamental issue is that all available data suggest that underreported sexual assaults are far, far more prevalent than false accusations. (My personal experience supports this insofar I am aware of multiple instances of false accusation and an absolute avalanche of unreported sexual harassment instances.)

In baseball tie goes to the runner, right? In our legal system, a “tie” (he said vs. she said with no other info) goes to the rapist in many cases.

I’m not disagreeing with innocent till proven guilty. But the above is very necessary context for where things sit today. The current system benefits the bad deeds of abusers far more than it benefits the bad deeds of false accusers.

 

[inthewings]

That's not really what he was saying though, and you know it.

Off-topic and not directly related to this case: I used to be on the side of letting what happens in jail go on as a sense of "street justice" but that's not usually how it plays out. Rape in jail is a huge problem and very often happens to non-violent offenders. Gangs and crooked prison guards are not doling out justice because they care about victims. They're doing it for the same reasons people sexually assault outside of jail.

One example in the sea of thousands was a young guy by the name of Daniel Williams in Alabama. You may have heard of him as his story got pretty big late last year. 22 years old serving a 1 year sentence for property theft. He was due to be released in 2 weeks but instead was tortured, tied up, and sexually assaulted for the last two days of his life by a prison gang. Its more often than not people like that who face this kind of "street justice."

All of this, but also another aspect that people don't really think about: working in an environment where rape and violence is permissible is really, really bad for the people responsible for running our prisons. I think human rights are important even in prisons, but for those who don't, maybe have a care for the guards and nurses who have to spend 40+ hours a week there and will be psychologically damaged by observing unchecked violence.

 

[HighAndTight]

I don’t see the relevance. Are you saying that heterosexual women never get raped?

I have never and hope no one here has said that statement.

Something tells me these boys are gonna get a crash course in consent once they get to the big house

I sincerely hope not only those that committed are held accountable, but those that tried to participate as well. Its disgusting but true, there is usually someone there that would have participated but for whatever reason didn't. They usually get off scott free unfortunately.

Lloyd Irvin from the MMA community is the most notorious example I can think of off the top of my head. Wanted to participate, but couldn't.....achieve the proper ability to do so.. That was his defence that worked.
To this day women come forward about him and his higher up students. No words....

 

[LesCanadiens]

I’m not saying I know how to fix this, but the fundamental issue is that all available data suggest that underreported sexual assaults are far, far more prevalent than false accusations. (My personal experience supports this insofar I am aware of multiple instances of false accusation and an absolute avalanche of unreported sexual harassment instances.)

In baseball tie goes to the runner, right? In our legal system, a “tie” (he said vs. she said with no other info) goes to the rapist in many cases.

I’m not disagreeing with innocent till proven guilty. But the above is very necessary context for where things sit today. The current system benefits the bad deeds of abusers far more than it benefits the bad deeds of false accusers.

I don't disagree with this. And it's not good. I wish they all would come forth and file reports. But I'm sure you agree (as you say), that doesn't make it wrong to hope for people to reserve final judgement until those charged are judged in a court of law. I'm shocked people jumped all over me in this thread for saying that. And accused me of some sublime conspiracy theory that I secretly am cheering rapists. Our society has totally devolved at a rapid rate in this manner. From politics, to gender issues, to SA and on and on. Wasn't like that at one time. And I'm old enough to remember.

 

[Crazy Cizikas]

I have never and hope no one here has said that statement.



I sincerely hope not only those that committed are held accountable, but those that tried to participate as well. Its disgusting but true, there is usually someone there that would have participated but for whatever reason didn't. They usually get off scott free unfortunately.

Lloyd Irvin from the MMA community is the most notorious example I can think of off the top of my head. Wanted to participate, but couldn't.....achieve the proper ability to do so.. That was his defence that worked.
To this day women come forward about him and his higher up students. No words....

Stop painting everyone with the same brush.

 

[hoglund]

Follow that up with krakauer's "Missoula"I haven't heard of that where can I stream it?

 

[Gregor Samsa]

If they are guilty they deserve anything legally coming to them.

My question is, all of you dislocating your shoulders to pat yourselves on the back condemning them and basically assuming the worst most malicious intent. If the players are found innocent, are you going to recant? Or will you sit in ignorance and still act like they are scum? Also anyone who thinks filming consent was creepy are f***ing morons. In today's society of #metoo and #believeallwoman(even when they lie) they were likely expecting something like this could happen and they would be given no benefit of the doubt as shown here so they covered their asses. The fact so many want to just assume she must have been under duress and was just a sweet innocent victim are just staggeringly shitty people.

Let the fact comes out, let the courts do there work and if they are found guilty then condemn away.

I don’t have a high opinion of guys that “run trains” or “invite their friends” so unless it turns out that this is a total lie and there was no sexual relations at all, these players are forever tarnished in my eyes. There was also enough possible criminal evidence to warrant them being asked to turn themselves in. People are entitled to their own judgments and don’t need to be guided by legal decisions

 

[RegDunlop]

Hockey Cananda still makes themselves look worse

Christ almighty
F ing Hockey Canada, police in some cases, NHL, and any other league or
organization that has swept or stayed silent through all this bullshit should be thoroughly investigated PROPERLY.

A lot more going on here than the assault. (Sorry if that's speculation - don't think so as reports have been made).

I grew up in this culture and actually lived and supported it when I was younger. Thank God I grew up

 

[CascadiaPuck]

I don't disagree with this. And it's not good. I wish they all would come forth and file reports. But I'm sure you agree (as you say), that doesn't make it wrong to hope for people to reserve final judgement until those charged are judged in a court of law. I'm shocked people jumped all over me in this thread for saying that. And accused me of some sublime conspiracy theory that I secretly am cheering rapists. Our society has totally devolved at a rapid rate in this manner. From politics, to gender issues, to SA and on and on. Wasn't like that at one time. And I'm old enough to remember.

I think this is a totally fair point. The problem is that parts of your position have been co-opted by folks who are generally disinclined to believe women and would be inclined to try to discredit what I said. (Definitely don’t think this is you.) It sucks, because you are speaking a bedrock truth (innocent till proven guilty). Just wish there was a way to address the one-sidedness of the status quo.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

You somehow concluding that if anyone dare mention that false accusations are real when discussing this case must thereby mean that they believe the alleged victim is lying is not only illogical, but borderline insane way of thinking.

I'm concluding that if you talk about how false accusations are a thing in relation to this incident, you're insinuating in some way that maybe this one is false too. I don't care how many times and how vehemently you want to qualify it with but I'm not saying she's making this up, if you didn't think in any way it was false you wouldn't have gone to any lengths to mention false accusations in the other cases.

It's just like saying "no offense, but" and then dropping some statement that is clearly meant to be offensive. Or "no disrespect but" and then dropping a statement that's clearly intended to be disrespectful. Adding a qualifier to it doesn't sanitize it and make it better, make it acceptable. Well, other women have lied about rape. Yeah, your exact intent is to call into question the veracity of this woman's claims; you're just too chickenshit to do it because you know you're going to get dragged by much of the board for it, so you'll go to great lengths to distance yourself from saying it's a lie, while using all the other language to connect "this incident" with "is a complete lie."

Which is why I say: if you're going to the trouble of referencing false claims in other instances, and especially if you're going to repeatedly do it, have the f***ing balls to at least say "this gal could be lying, too." Otherwise, unless you have definite proof she's lying - which, if you've got that, I'm sure the London Ontario police department would like to talk to you and you should do the community a public service and provide that evidence ASAP - drop the reference to other false claims completely because that has zero bearing on whether this female is lying.

 

[AnInjuredJasonZucker]

That's a whole lot of assuming. I think people deserve the benefit of the doubt. And assuming someone is condoning sexual assault when all they're doing is saying innocent unless proven guilty, is very offensive. That's what some have accused me of in this thread. And it's absolutely false. And accusing someone of that who is not, is really a personal attack and SHOULD be grounds for defamation of character. At least, it shouldn't be condoned here. I've seen both scenarios with both outcomes first-hand. And I reserve my opinion as the credibility of either party until the evidence proves things in court. But that doesn't mean I don't believe the accuser. Far from it.

I've had a friend dragged through trials and courts for SA that just about ruined their lives and livelihood. Only to thankfully be found not guilty when the evidence showed he was being targeted by a bitter ex who couldn't take being rejected when he broke up with her. And many such cases were all to common in the nightclub industry of which I worked many years ago.

I've also known women who were indeed victims of SA, and it ruined their lives too. And thankfully, the perps were charged and convicted.

That's why my last sentence exists. Of course not everyone is being disingenuous, but it's willfully ignorant to suggest that there is not a fair number of people - including in this thread - whose goal is to downplay the problem of sexual violence against women using "false accusations" as a tool to do so.

It's also worth noting that the majority of defendants claim that the accusations are false. Since convictions are notoriously difficult to get in rape cases, rapists often walk and get to say "See? I always said it was a false accusation!"

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Speculation is bad, but I'm more concerned about someone breaking the law and putting peoples lives in danger then speculation.

Might just be me though.

Depends on the state. Some states are very "live and let live ... or die" when it comes to texting and driving. Also depends on whether BoBN is sitting in bumper-to-bumper rush hour traffic doing 75 or out in western Kansas where it might take a few miles before they run into anything.

 

[Hank Plank]

How many post-sex consent videos have you asked women to film for you? I ask because I can't wrap my head around someone thinking this is normal behaviour.

Then you are hopelessly out of touch and completely ignorant of reality.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

I was actually getting back in the car and buckled after picking up one of my kids from school.

I appreciate everyone's concern for my safety, because I do genuinely love you people.

 

[HBK27]

I'm concluding that if you talk about how false accusations are a thing in relation to this incident, you're insinuating in some way that maybe this one is false too. I don't care how many times and how vehemently you want to qualify it with but I'm not saying she's making this up, if you didn't think in any way it was false you wouldn't have gone to any lengths to mention false accusations in the other cases.

It's just like saying "no offense, but" and then dropping some statement that is clearly meant to be offensive. Or "no disrespect but" and then dropping a statement that's clearly intended to be disrespectful. Adding a qualifier to it doesn't sanitize it and make it better, make it acceptable. Well, other women have lied about rape. Yeah, your exact intent is to call into question the veracity of this woman's claims; you're just too chickenshit to do it because you know you're going to get dragged by much of the board for it, so you'll go to great lengths to distance yourself from saying it's a lie, while using all the other language to connect "this incident" with "is a complete lie."

Which is why I say: if you're going to the trouble of referencing false claims in other instances, and especially if you're going to repeatedly do it, have the f***ing balls to at least say "this gal could be lying, too." Otherwise, unless you have definite proof she's lying - which, if you've got that, I'm sure the London Ontario police department would like to talk to you and you should do the community a public service and provide that evidence ASAP - drop the reference to other false claims completely because that has zero bearing on whether this female is lying.

Yeah, I've already stated that maybe she's lying - it's one of several possibilities that I haven't ruled that out yet considering there's a lot we don't know about this case.

Of course, that's not what you stated earlier and now you're moving the goalposts as you specifically said that anyone mentioning any false accusations thinks "this bitch" (as you call her) "is lying too", which is not at all the same thing.

Real simple, since apparently you're unable to read: if you're going to reference any prior instance where some female made up a claim, have the balls to just come out and say "yeah, I think this bitch is lying too." Otherwise, STFU about someone else lying in some past instance because that has no bearing on whether this incident really did occur or not.

 

[inthewings]

Then you are hopelessly out of touch and completely ignorant of reality.

You're telling me people are out there having sex, then pulling out their phone and asking women to confirm on video that they consented to sex with the filmer?

 

[HighAndTight]

I was actually getting back in the car and buckled after picking up one of my kids from school.

I appreciate everyone's concern for my safety, because I do genuinely love you people.

Totally honest with you, I was being a dick. A distracted driver is why I've never my MIL and all my wife got out if it was an apology and some cash when she was 10.

Sincerest apologies.

 

[CascadiaPuck]

You're telling me people are out there having sex, then pulling out their phone and asking women to confirm on video that they consented to sex with the filmer?

Yeah, that’s weird to me too.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Totally honest with you, I was being a dick. A distracted driver is why I've never my MIL and all my wife got out if it was an apology and some cash when she was 10.

Sincerest apologies.

Nah, you're good - that's what we do here! Sorry to hear about the distracted driver - that's not good at all.

Too many bad drivers around this area for me to consider not having my full focus, especially with 1 to 3 kids in tow.

 

[Petey O]

I was actually getting back in the car and buckled after picking up one of my kids from school.

I appreciate everyone's concern for my safety, because I do genuinely love you people.

Snapped this picture of you when I was out as well. Can confirm BOBN was picking his kid up from school and is safe and sound. Crisis averted.

 

[norrisnick]

I don't disagree with this. And it's not good. I wish they all would come forth and file reports. But I'm sure you agree (as you say), that doesn't make it wrong to hope for people to reserve final judgement until those charged are judged in a court of law. I'm shocked people jumped all over me in this thread for saying that. And accused me of some sublime conspiracy theory that I secretly am cheering rapists. Our society has totally devolved at a rapid rate in this manner. From politics, to gender issues, to SA and on and on. Wasn't like that at one time. And I'm old enough to remember.

Devolved? No. No longer quietly accepting shitty behavior from shitty people? Yes.

 

[HighAndTight]

Yeah, that’s weird to me too.

No weirder then NDAs and consent forms. Seems like the lazy/tech version. Which all in all is a sad statement in itself.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

View attachment 810387

Snapped this picture of you when I was out as well. Can confirm BOBN was picking his kid up from school and is safe and sound. Crisis averted.

When my parents died, I inherited an entire box of Berenstain Bears books. Kids love 'em.

 

[Hank Plank]

You're telling me people are out there having sex, then pulling out their phone and asking women to confirm on video that they consented to sex with the filmer?

Yes because they have no choice, but video is taken before and after. If you don't then a man can find themselves accused of rape. Woman gets rejected at some point? Claim she was raped. Regrets having sex? Say she was raped. This HAPPENS, so some men have resorted to drastic measures to protect themselves.

Now I can already see some people getting triggered, THIS DUDE SAYS THESE PLAYERS DID NOTHING WRONG BLAAARAGGHGH. Not saying that, if you think so then you are bad at thinking.