Five members from Canada’s 2018 world junior team (Hart, McLeod, Dube, Foote and Formenton) told to surrender to police, facing sexual assault charges

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

That’s because in the court of law you are innocent until proven guilty….it’s not hard to understand this. if you’re found to be not guilty that in turn maintains your innocence

In the court of law you are presumed innocent.

It sets up the parameters for deciding if someone will be punished for a crime by working from the starting point that they are innocent (that's the presumption) until proven beyond a reasonable of doubt that they are guilty of the crime.

But a presumption of innocence still doesn't mean you were proven innocent.

 

[sepster]

AP named the former 2018 Canada world junior players that have taken a leave of absence from their teams while noting that it's at the same time as a report that 5 players from that world junior team have been requested to surrender to police.

They're still not directly connecting the dots because it's not factual yet.

Sounding kind of mob-y.....

 

[DEANYOUNGBLOOD17]

If it were consensual there would be absolutely no reason for the insurance company to write the woman a check. That makes absolutely no sense.

This is the silliest statement I read today. ( and there’s been a lot)

The insurance company paid out because true or not it’s a bad PR angle either way. They believed the best way to handle it … is to throw hush $$$ at it and hope it goes away.

That’s why Hickey Canada is in trouble…. They used $ in -appropriately and they were not open to protecting females in a valuable position vs protecting Hockey Canadas image..

It has not been determined if anyone did anything wrong yet!

And we have 46 pages of discourse and 50 pages of deleted posts….

 

[GirardSpinorama]

Good. It will be tough on her but she has the responsibility to support the process and bring it all to light.

 

[GeoRox89]

Right? It's a pretty sticky (no pun intended) situation all around. Isn't #3 basically what happened with that comedian (can't think of his name, had a tv show on Netflix... Aziz?)?

I think that’s pretty similar to the Aziz Ansari situation. Based on his apology/statement, the case I really think of for that example is Kobe Bryant. I mean that’s its own minefield people could probably rip apart forever but the public statement does exist that he believed it was consensual but accepts that she believes it was not

 

[joestevens29]

This is the silliest statement I read today. ( and there’s been a lot)

The insurance company paid out because true or not it’s a bad PR angle either way. They believed the best way to handle it … is to throw hush $$$ at it and hope it goes away.

That’s why Hickey Canada is in trouble…. They used $ in -appropriately and they were not open to protecting females in a valuable position vs protecting Hockey Canadas image..

It has not been determined if anyone did anything wrong yet!

And we have 46 pages of discourse and 50 pages of deleted posts….

Wouldn't that be a thread to see

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

Can the Canadian govt freeze the bank accounts and revoke the drivers licenses of the 5 players without due process if they so choose?

 

[ERYX]

To answer your question: I think it is very likely that one or more parties are guilty of the crime they are charged. As with all cases, charges are not brought lightly.

I don't think that most cases are as black and white as "he did it" or "he didn't do it". The case in question may well be one that is that black and white, but so many cases in my experience have a lot more layers and nuance to it ... usually involve relationships that are now over, how does that factor into peoples' recollection of events? Did someone misinterpret something at the moment in time.

The fact that "charges are not brought lightly" I don't think is enough to say "therefore all or most allegations must be true".

This is anecdotal, but the majority of "rape" cases I've done, especially the "sex while waking up" that you referenced, comes to light in the context of divorce proceedings. I don't do family law but I am told there are massive benefits in family court if the other side has criminal charges.

It's impossible to go through all the nuances and variations on a message board. Human beings are very complex creatures.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

In the court of law you are presumed innocent.

It sets up the parameters for deciding if someone will be punished for a crime by working from the starting point that they are innocent (that's the presumption) until proven beyond a reasonable of doubt that they are guilty of the crime.

But a presumption of innocence still doesn't mean you were proven innocent.

If you start as innocent, why do you need to be proven as innocent?

 

[ERYX]

Can the Canadian govt freeze the bank accounts and revoke the drivers licenses of the 5 players without due process if they so choose?

No, they only do that if you financially support certain causes that the government doesn't like.

That said, a ruling of the Federal Court yesterday say that they couldn't do that either, it was a violation of the Charter.

 

[Royale With Cheese]

Can the Canadian govt freeze the bank accounts and revoke the drivers licenses of the 5 players without due process if they so choose?

Why would they?

 

[TropicOfNoReturn]

They haven't. Most people have not done group sex. It's weird.

Way to kink shame

 

[Sasha Orlov]

I don't think that most cases are as black and white as "he did it" or "he didn't do it". The case in question may well be one that is that black and white, but so many cases in my experience have a lot more layers and nuance to it ... usually involve relationships that are now over, how does that factor into peoples' recollection of events? Did someone misinterpret something at the moment in time.

The fact that "charges are not brought lightly" I don't think is enough to say "therefore all or most allegations must be true".

This is anecdotal, but the majority of "rape" cases I've done, especially the "sex while waking up" that you referenced, comes to light in the context of divorce proceedings. I don't do family law but I am told there are massive benefits in family court if the other side has criminal charges.

It's impossible to go through all the nuances and variations on a message board. Human beings are very complex creatures.

It actually generally can’t be brought into a family proceeding unless it means the person with the charges is unsafe for the child to be around or something like that

Pretty rare for it to end up making much difference in my experience

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

Corey Perry be like

Rumor has it there are some members of the 1990 Capitals team researching statues of limitation. No names here but one of them might rhyme with Pissacelli.

 

[K1900L]

Insurance companies don't pay out hundreds of thousands of dollars to people who accuse their clients on flimsy evidence. Insurance companies have entire departments of people whose sole job it is to make sure they don't pay out money for no reason.

This is not necessarily true. The players being named publicly could very well have ended (some of) their careers, considering that they most likely wouldn't have been able to play or even skate in the meantime and contracts would have been vaporised. The costs of paying the woman once independently from guilt or innocence of the players are probably much lower than trials stretched over months and years, even if their clients were to be acquitted.

Not going to court can be indefinitely better than going to court and winning, especially monetarily and most certainly in a case where a whole nation would be watching.

 

[AlphaLackey]

In the court of law you are presumed innocent.

It sets up the parameters for deciding if someone will be punished for a crime by working from the starting point that they are innocent (that's the presumption) until proven beyond a reasonable of doubt that they are guilty of the crime.

But a presumption of innocence still doesn't mean you were proven innocent.

All well and correct, of course, but it also bears mentioning that a conviction of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt doesn’t mean you were guilty. So at some point, we have to decide how much a verdict means re: likelihood of innocence. And even that can vary wildly from case to case.

 

[GeoRox89]

Most people have done this.

The only times I’ve ever heard about this happening from other people was ones where their partner had never discussed it with them first and they had not given prior consent

 

[kingsholygrail]

How long are they given to turn themselves in before warrants are issued?

 

[Ted Hoffman]

If you start as innocent, why do you need to be proven as innocent?

You don't.

 

[AlphaLackey]

This is not necessarily true. The players being named publicly could very well have ended (some of) their careers, considering that they most likely wouldn't have been able to play or even skate in the meantime and contracts would have been vaporised. The costs of paying the woman once independently from guilt or innocence of the players are probably much lower than trials stretched over months and years, even if their clients were to be acquitted.

Not going to court can be indefinitely better than going to court and winning, especially monetarily and most certainly in a case where a whole nation would be watching.

Innocent people settle all the time.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

If you start as innocent, why do you need to be proven as innocent?

That's the whole point. You don't need to be proven innocent because the court presumes you are.

Meaning in the eyes of the court, the case will start from the assumption that you are innocent. Not proof, just an assumption. To be convicted it must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that you are guilty. If that does not happen then the court determines you are not guilty. It makes no determination of your actual innocence.

 

[Kane One]

How long are they given to turn themselves in before warrants are issued?

The London police said they’ll make an announcement on Monday Feb 5, so I’m assuming that’s the deadline.

 

[PhysicalGraffiti]

But as an attorney, aren't you supposed to refrain from speculating on a case you don't have access to the files on? You're in the same boat as the rest of us.

I didn't speculate bud. If you see above, I claimed it's absurd folks immediately assume guilt based on accusations.

And a debate on a case, if I'm familiar and read into it and based what I have, can be enjoyable and entertaining.

I shouldn't need to recuse myself from a case I have no vested interest in, but next chance I get I'll inform anyone around me a guy on HF Boards set me straight.

 

[Jee]

How long are they given to turn themselves in before warrants are issued?

speculated date is feb 5th, the day of the presser

 

[AlphaLackey]

The only times I’ve ever heard about this happening from other people was ones where their partner had never discussed it with them first and they had not given prior consent

That’s because most people who don’t believe they are breaking the law will generally not talk as much about their sex lives with others.