The pizza guy knew that? He could tell that in the "first ten seconds"?
Does consent have to be continually repeated?
Five members from Canada’s 2018 world junior team (Hart, McLeod, Dube, Foote and Formenton) told to surrender to police, facing sexual assault charges
- Thread starter Koivu11
- Start date
- Status
Does consent have to be continually repeated?
I am toxic
. . . even in small doses
He stated he was invited unwittingly and couldn't process what was happening. On no planet in the universe does that indicate he received any kind of consent.
He witnessed a woman surrounded by a gang with clubs at hand that is slapping her and ejaculating on her - to which he has been invited without her consent .
Again - if you can't tell if it is a gang bang or a gang rape, default to the latter and effin do something. Here's the result - best case scenario you stop a gang rape, worst case scenario you delay an all night gang bang for a few minutes. I know, some people don't get this. It's why rape is so prevalent.
Cool.
Don't let players off the hook just because they play for your team and weren't charged is what I'm saying because any of the remaining players on the team could have been in the room.
Not slanderous to say he might be involved in some capacity given the facts
Gregor Samsa
Registered User
- Sep 5, 2020
- 4,485
- 5,100
A lot of rapes aren’t going to involve screaming or fighting back. I’d imagine the victim wants to mollify the attacker(s), not make the situation worse, and get it over with. Pizza guy could have come up for a slice, saw what was going on, felt uncomfortable for some reason, but think “well, there have been girls that have done this before”, and taken his slice and bounced. We don’t know what he saw or thought but we’ll find out, I’m sure. No reason to think the girl cried out to him for help and she probably thought he’s one of them. Probably best to withhold the call for blood for someone who can be a key piece in putting these guys away
Last edited:
Wait, the pizza guy was supposed to receive consent? For what exactly?
And you know for a fact that he witnessed what you said he witnessed? He saw the men ejaculating on her, with golf clubs in hand? You have a source for that?
Pierre from Orleans
Registered User
- May 9, 2007
- 27,955
- 21,141
I'm talking about people calling him a rapist.
People can say that he may be involved in some capacity but to outright call him a rapist is dumb as f*** until he's criminally charged/found guilty.
Golden_Jet
Registered User
- Sep 21, 2005
- 27,248
- 14,347
Has it been documented, what was happening in the room during the 5-10 minutes, that pizza guy was in the room. Haven’t read anything, about was actually was happening during the 5-10 minutes, other than ate a slice a pizza then left.
Seems like your speculating and made it up, let’s not make things up until we know what happened in the 5-10 minutes.
funny.
i never was part of gang bang or gang rape. not even a threesome. you have some life experiences ahead of me.
If I walk into a hotel room and a gangbang is in process, if the woman acknowledges my presence without asking me to leave, I would interpret that as consent to be there. Pretty sure the law would as well.
Warden of the North
Ned Stark's head
Is Pizza Guy literally a pizza delivery guy or another member of the team who brought pizza? Is he one of the 5 or 8?
Golden_Jet
Registered User
- Sep 21, 2005
- 27,248
- 14,347
Supposedly got a text, pizza was in the room, and came down for a slice, one of the 8, I assume, since he was there 5-10 minutes, ate a slice and left.
He was a member of the team. His lawyer says his client should not be judged or whatever.
TrufleShufle
Registered User
- Aug 31, 2012
- 8,534
- 14,465
Possibly the second victim in the saga, was told about a pizza party, presumably rushed all the way to the room excited and was met with no pizza. Probably very disappointed and heart broken his pals would use his love of pizza to trick him like that.
But in all seriousness, it basically comes down to a guy supposedly going to the room under false pretenses, he allegedly stayed for 10 minutes and left, if that's all true there is a lot of questions to be asked about his guilt. Or if he possibly just spills everything to the cops to save himself. Or if he only needed to 10 minutes to participate and left. It's all just a weird addition to a pretty messed up story as it is.
Dr Pepper
Registered User
Whatever happens, these dudes are all weird as hell.
It would never interest me to eat pizza while watching my friends run train on a girl.
Honestly weird dude.
It would never interest me to eat pizza while watching my friends run train on a girl.
Honestly weird dude.
Chinaski89
Registered User
- May 17, 2019
- 1,163
- 1,150
putting my tinfoil hat on and saying the Buble mushroom thing is a distraction for this.
Dr Pepper
Registered User
If I didn't know this code going in, and expected pizza, only for there to be ZERO pizza, I would've been pissed.
SupremeTeam16
5-14-6-1
I wouldn’t be surprised if this never makes it to a trial which could still be years off due to a backlog in Ontario’s judicial system. Good chance we’ll see plea deals, dismissal or the crown staying the charges with the possibility of re-filling down the road.
My guess is that during the original investigation, police and prosecutors felt that the videos were going to be difficult evidence to overcome in order to secure a conviction. I’m betting they still feel that way but political/public pressure forced them to re-open. Tough one for the lead crown prosecutor, Cunningham, having to lead this prosecution in a high profile case against an army of high powered attorneys where convictions aren’t close to guaranteed.
People will say the victim can’t give consent when she’s intoxicated but the level of intoxication matters here and if she is lucid enough to make the statements she allegedly did in the video, it’s going to be difficult to argue against that because then where is the line? Is all intercourse where one or both of the participants is intoxicated non-consensual? Their best chance to overcome that video evidence is going to be to say she was under duress when she made those statements and that really comes down to what people who see the video think when they see it, how they view her body language, facial expressions, how she’s speaking. Again if prosecutors originally felt when they watched the video that she likely made the statements of her own volition it’s likely a judge and jury may feel the same. They’ll likely want to flip one of the accused or witnesses to back up claims she was under duress when she made the statements. That video is just really damning in a SA case such as this where she consented to the original act but not to acts after, it’s very murky and often times turns into a he said she said situation. The defense is likely to go hard at her with lines of questioning about why didn’t you try to leave? Why didn’t you call for help? You’re in a busy hotel it’s 4am, if you start screaming at the top of your lungs it’s likely someone would come see what was happening and likely the accused would stop. These are legitimate questions she’s going to have to answer.
The situation is such a sin and whether they believed it was consensual or not, it’s really gross for young men to act like this. It’s never easy to find the complete truth in these situations and my opinion is that the victim was not completely comfortable with the acts after the original act but she went along with it at the time but later those feelings grew and she was regretful. Just an all around awful situation.
My guess is that during the original investigation, police and prosecutors felt that the videos were going to be difficult evidence to overcome in order to secure a conviction. I’m betting they still feel that way but political/public pressure forced them to re-open. Tough one for the lead crown prosecutor, Cunningham, having to lead this prosecution in a high profile case against an army of high powered attorneys where convictions aren’t close to guaranteed.
People will say the victim can’t give consent when she’s intoxicated but the level of intoxication matters here and if she is lucid enough to make the statements she allegedly did in the video, it’s going to be difficult to argue against that because then where is the line? Is all intercourse where one or both of the participants is intoxicated non-consensual? Their best chance to overcome that video evidence is going to be to say she was under duress when she made those statements and that really comes down to what people who see the video think when they see it, how they view her body language, facial expressions, how she’s speaking. Again if prosecutors originally felt when they watched the video that she likely made the statements of her own volition it’s likely a judge and jury may feel the same. They’ll likely want to flip one of the accused or witnesses to back up claims she was under duress when she made the statements. That video is just really damning in a SA case such as this where she consented to the original act but not to acts after, it’s very murky and often times turns into a he said she said situation. The defense is likely to go hard at her with lines of questioning about why didn’t you try to leave? Why didn’t you call for help? You’re in a busy hotel it’s 4am, if you start screaming at the top of your lungs it’s likely someone would come see what was happening and likely the accused would stop. These are legitimate questions she’s going to have to answer.
The situation is such a sin and whether they believed it was consensual or not, it’s really gross for young men to act like this. It’s never easy to find the complete truth in these situations and my opinion is that the victim was not completely comfortable with the acts after the original act but she went along with it at the time but later those feelings grew and she was regretful. Just an all around awful situation.
If he would have participated in those 10 minutes there is no reason he wouldn't have been charged with the others
Indrid Cold
Registered User
- Oct 24, 2022
- 559
- 523
My late aunt was a social worker and always said the sex offenders were the worst, and reoffended the most. Small sample size and in Michigan no less.
Yukon Joe
Registered User
This case will almost certainly go to trial. Maybe, just maybe, some plea deals, but it's highly unlikely a case this high profile just gets stayed or withdrawn.
The Crown had to know this case would attract huge media attention, and that the fact it was investigated once, then charges not brought, was problematic. This would have to get approval at the highest levels of the prosecution service before charges were approved.
Here's an excellent Rick Westhead article with all you want to know about trial process.
With players from 2018 World Junior team charged lawyers say behind-the-scenes legal battles brewing | TSN
Every detail of the case involving four current National Hockey League players and one former NHL player charged with sexual assault is likely to attract close attention and legal arguments, Rick Westhead writes.
www.tsn.ca
So look - Rick doesn't interview anyone involved with the case (guaranteed neither prosecutors or defence lawyers would talk), but he does tlk to other and former prosecutors and defence lawyers. The article does a good job running through a whole bunch of issues likely to come up, from timing, to severance, to how the victim will be treated.
Highly recommended.
I believe in people being innocent until proven guilty so I can only form an opinion based on the limited details I have read but when you combine teenagers who are treated like gods with alcohol, a rowdy environment, and groupthink you often get a scenario where people do things they would never have done on their own. I am certainly not defending the players nor am I claiming they are guilty but they are teenagers and many of them do not necessarily use good judgement in certain situations. It appears the girl consented to one of the players but I have a hard believing she consented to numerous guys performing some of the acts on her that they did. The scenario of what happened from her point of view sounds far more likely and plausible then the idea she consented to everything that happened to her that night. I do not believe a girl would engage with one person sexually and then be okay with more random people entering the room and also engaging with them sexually. If the entire incident started with multiple players performing acts on her I might buy the idea of consent but not in the scenario that is being described. I also don't believe anyone who thinks they did something that was okay would think to get a video consenting to the acts or force her to take a shower. They must have recognized she was not enjoying it or that something they were doing was wrong to even think to do that unless they do the same for every girl they have sex with, which they definitely do not.
Of course my opinion could change as I learn more details or evidence, That is just my initial thoughts based on the limited knowledge I have. We will just have to wait and see as more details become known about what happened.
Of course my opinion could change as I learn more details or evidence, That is just my initial thoughts based on the limited knowledge I have. We will just have to wait and see as more details become known about what happened.
Last edited:
I am almost positive this is what players 2-5 assumed was consent as well.
SupremeTeam16
5-14-6-1
Now that charges have been laid the clock has started and the SCoC Jordan decision could potentially come into effect and force the prosecution to stay charges or seek plea deals just to get it over with and not have to start the whole process over again.This case will almost certainly go to trial. Maybe, just maybe, some plea deals, but it's highly unlikely a case this high profile just gets stayed or withdrawn.
The Crown had to know this case would attract huge media attention, and that the fact it was investigated once, then charges not brought, was problematic. This would have to get approval at the highest levels of the prosecution service before charges were approved.
Here's an excellent Rick Westhead article with all you want to know about trial process.
With players from 2018 World Junior team charged lawyers say behind-the-scenes legal battles brewing | TSN
Every detail of the case involving four current National Hockey League players and one former NHL player charged with sexual assault is likely to attract close attention and legal arguments, Rick Westhead writes.
So look - Rick doesn't interview anyone involved with the case (guaranteed neither prosecutors or defence lawyers would talk), but he does tlk to other and former prosecutors and defence lawyers. The article does a good job running through a whole bunch of issues likely to come up, from timing, to severance, to how the victim will be treated.
Highly recommended.
Like many provinces the Ontario judicial system is a mess and critically understaffed.
Here is a story about a sexual assault case being tossed because they couldn’t get a trial quick enough because of understaffing in the courts, thus violating the defendants charter rights.
Cases collapse at Toronto's newest courthouse amid 'staggering' number of closures, staff shortages
A case involving the alleged sexual assault of a minor is the latest to be thrown out at Toronto's newest courthouse due to the “staggering” number of courtroom closures fuelled by staffing shortages at the facility, according to an Ontario Court of Justice ruling published last week.
beta.ctvnews.ca
- Status
