Five members from Canada’s 2018 world junior team (Hart, McLeod, Dube, Foote and Formenton) told to surrender to police, facing sexual assault charges

[oilexport]

Do we know what the room was layout was like? Could it have been a suite with a separate living room area from the bedroom? It look s really bad for the pizza guy if he's sitting there eating pizza and watching it in front of him, but it's different if he's in an adjacent area and doesn't really know exactly what's going on in the room next to him for a few mins.

It could be very damning for him, but there's a reality where the extent of what was taking place wasn't obvious to him.

Down in the lobby is where the player 1 went to get the pizza.

 

[ozzie]

I hope they turn on eachother for their own survival. But I suspect they paid alot for their legal council. Maybe some good deal cutting. But I doubt they are unified.

Agent comments are nothing but a desperate attempt at damage control, pretty scummy. I hope these come back to bite them too.

 

[TheSmokingMan]

I doubt any team would ever sign them but they all plead not guilty. Does the NHL really have any grounds to ban them if they’re found not guiltily? The reason I ask is because there are allegations made all the time and this could send a very dangerous precedent.

I get this case is bad, but I remember other cases where if found not guilty, the athlete/celebrity continued on with their careers after a not guilty verdict. There’s a huge Epstein list out right now that is getting less attention than this and likely has more “solid evidence” and witnesses.

I don't think the NHL has to ban them at all. None of them are under contract after this year, so their teams can walk away without qualifying. We probably won't get a trial verdict for at least a year and I don't see any NHL team offering a contract during that period.

I always think it's better to get all the facts and let the case fully play out before making judgements. There are false accusations made all the time, and I think it's wrong to always immediately believe the accuser (usually a woman) and assume the accused (usually a man) is guilty, before hearing all of the facts in court.

Having said that, based on everything we already know about this case, it looks incredibly bad for these players going forward. Even if they are found innocent, I still don't think any NHL team will pick them up. Their NHL careers are effectively done.

Also, I think other players on that team will get dragged into this. We know that there were at least 8-11 players who had first hand knowledge of this incident. It's highly likely that some of them will be called to testify. Prosecutors rarely file charges on high profile cases like this if they don't think they will win. They likely have some pretty damning evidence and they may have even already made deals with some of the other players to testify against their teammates.

From an NHL perspective, we have just begun to see the fallout from this. The NHL better buckle up, because looking at the names on that 2018 roster, the league could be in for a rough ride.

 

[HighLifeManIsHigh]

I find it crazy that this thread has turned into a witch hunt in regards to pizza guy and not the five players that have been charged with fvcking rape.

 

[TheSmokingMan]

I don't see how he will be able to continue to play for any NHL team.

At best, he's turning states evidence and saving his own skin after the fact. At worst, he was complicit and is trying to save his own skin after the fact. I don't see any way a team can keep him on the roster. Dude is burnt toast either way.


see my response above

Pizza guy is done. How he goes out will be up to him.

The level of stupidity of the agent for making an "anonymous" statement like this is mind boggling. It serves no purpose to the investigation and it makes his client look like a complete moron at best and complicit in a crime at worst. Pizza guy should fire his agent and lawyer up, because, I guarantee he won't remain anonymous for long.

 

[DEANYOUNGBLOOD17]

Naw. The only way to change this behavior is to root it all out and punish everyone. If you got a text and didn't say anything? Indefinite suspension. FEAR will change future players behavior. Yeah, some will be sacrificed for the greater good. That is how you change culture. Sorry but not sorry. It will be easy to connect the dots. Any player that had previous knowledge and didn't speak up...see ya. Then you move onto the GMs that KNEW and did nothing. It'll be a bloodbath but that is how you usher in change. Otherwise, you'll have the same crap happen again and again.

Some innocent people sacrificed for the greater good arguments..

Sounds like a witch Hunt!

Going down the list of everybody that even knew something and destroy their livelihood. (Players /Gms / agents / lawyers / bellboys/ stick boys.

Why don’t we concentrate on the 5 players charged.

And then

Let justice proceed where everyone is assumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.


Not assumed despicable and castrated by a mob on a hockey forum.

 

[Spearmint Rhino]

Maybe cause I’m a father of 2 teenage daughters or have the Sixth Sense but soon as I saw the pics of the potential suspects, MM jumped out as the one I would have the “I’ll break your knee caps to”

 

[MikeyMike01]

Naw. The only way to change this behavior is to root it all out and punish everyone. If you got a text and didn't say anything? Indefinite suspension. FEAR will change future players behavior. Yeah, some will be sacrificed for the greater good. That is how you change culture. Sorry but not sorry. It will be easy to connect the dots. Any player that had previous knowledge and didn't speak up...see ya. Then you move onto the GMs that KNEW and did nothing. It'll be a bloodbath but that is how you usher in change. Otherwise, you'll have the same crap happen again and again.

That’s a great way to damage future investigations, as people in the peripheral decline to cooperate for fear of persecution.

To say nothing of all the other issues with your proposal.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Any idea who it is? That may be causing a bias. I have no clue but if you think the gen pop is going to fall for...I only stopped by for some slices and stayed for 10 minutes then left. You are absolutely underestimating the fans at large. Not to mention the female ones. The pizza defense. Sure pal.

You see something...you say something...been that way for years and years. Long before 2018. So good luck with your "it's not delivery it's DiGiornio defense". May get him through the court case but the court of public opinion is going to put pizza boy on a cheese shredder. And rightly so.

This wasn't a knife to throat thing. You know that the woman doesn't have to be screaming rape or stop for there not to have been consent.

I don't know if I walked in on a rough looking gangbang what I'd do, especially if the girl wasn't begging for help. I think I'd just want to get the heck out of there.

Anyway, I'm almost certain you'll be dead wrong on this.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Theory is Formenton was outed by pizza guy and that’s why the former was persona non grata in the NHL

I don't think pizza guy would have been criminally charged like Formenton was though.

Pizza guy might just be facing 'my reputation is completely in the shitter that I'm done too anyways'.

This wasn't a knife to throat thing. You know that the woman doesn't have to be screaming rape or stop for there not to have been consent.

I don't know if I walked in on a rough looking gangbang what I'd do, especially if the girl wasn't begging for help. I think I'd just want to get the heck out of there.

Anyway, I'm almost certain you'll be dead wrong on this.

10 minutes is a long time. I think your point would hold more if he popped his head in and left but 'I'm not sure if it was assault or consensual but I stuck around for ten minutes' is an extremely bizarre position.

 

[Hinterland]

So what do the experts think are the odds of those five guys playing another NHL game? Any precedents? The only one I remember is Voynov who got suspended by the league after police charged him with domestic violence... long before he was actually convicted. From what I recall the Kings tried to circumvent that suspension by having Voynov attend team practice but they were caught and fined 100'000 dollars.

Fair to assume that McLeod & co are done as well and about to move to Russia?

 

[Frank Drebin]

I find it crazy that this thread has turned into a witch hunt in regards to pizza guy and not the five players that have been charged with fvcking rape.

It's extremely hypocritical that we can acknowledge the power dynamics that allowed Kyle Beach to be assaulted by a much smaller man or the perceived threat of the golf clubs and number of players in the room to the victim but totally ignore these same factors when judging the pizza players ability to do the right thing in the moment.

For all we know he was pressured to join in and it took everything in his power to muster up a way to remove himself from that situation.

Unless she was begging him for help, I'm confident the usual suspects drunk again on their own heightened sense of morality will be dead wrong on the public perception of this player.

 

[canadianguy77]

So what do the experts think are the odds of those five guys playing another NHL game? Any precedents? The only one I remember is Voynov who got suspended by the league after police charged him with domestic violence... long before he was actually convicted. From what I recall the Kings tried to circumvent that suspension by having Voynov attend team practice but they were caught and fined 100'000 dollars.

Fair to assume that McLeod & co are done as well and about to move to Russia?

You ever see OJ in movies or on commercials anymore or having anything to do with football?

 

[Frank Drebin]

Word of advice - if after 10 minutes* you can't determine if a gang bang is going on or it is a gang rape, default to the latter and effin' do something about it.

Especially if you were invited unwittingly and no sort of consent whatsoever was ever discussed.

I doubt there can be any conviction in a criminal case, "beyond a reasonable doubt" is too high a bar to clear, seeing as most people aren't very bright. But there is no doubt that had this case gone to civil court E.M. would win based on whatever that standard is, balance of probabilities or whatever it's called.

*Did I say 10 minutes? I meant 10 seconds.

Are all gangbangs sexual assaults?

If not, what are some visual clues that a gangbang is a sexual assault?

Does the absence of these visual clues mean that a sexual assault did not occur?

 

[TheSmokingMan]

It's extremely hypocritical that we can acknowledge the power dynamics that allowed Kyle Beach to be assaulted by a much smaller man or the perceived threat of the golf clubs and number of players in the room to the victim but totally ignore these same factors when judging the pizza players ability to do the right thing in the moment.

For all we know he was pressured to join in and it took everything in his power to muster up a way to remove himself from that situation.

Unless she was begging him for help, I'm confident the usual suspects drunk again on their own heightened sense of morality will be dead wrong on the public perception of this player.

Of course people are going to speculate when such incomplete information is given. That's why the agent releasing an anonymous statement is so puzzling. He just made things far worse for his client.

 

[ACLEVERNAME]

Can we agree that kids 'mature' and age at a different rate? Is that really a controversial thought in this scenario? Its an "Under 20" tournament - lot of disparity in a group of 22+ teammates.

I was a 'virgin' well into my 20's and I also played highschool and semi-competitive sports throughout my youth. The stories I heard straight from the horses mouth would make most of you blush or turn to violent rage (as in this thread). What should I have done? Tell the coach? Tell a parent? Go to the police?

I sat there and laughed and high-fived the other guys just like everyone else. It's a group mentality thing - it's human nature plain and simple. Whether it's 'wrong' or 'right' it doesn't really matter - it's ultimately wired into our little monkey brains to follow the herd.


I absolutely despise the hateful rhetoric of one prominent poster in this thread. Wearing a mask of virtue - I 'see' you

 

[Statto]

Any idea who it is? That may be causing a bias. I have no clue but if you think the gen pop is going to fall for...I only stopped by for some slices and stayed for 10 minutes then left. You are absolutely underestimating the fans at large. Not to mention the female ones. The pizza defense. Sure pal.

You see something...you say something...been that way for years and years. Long before 2018. So good luck with your "it's not delivery it's DiGiornio defense". May get him through the court case but the court of public opinion is going to put pizza boy on a cheese shredder. And rightly so.

Good post. Being there and doing nothing, isn’t actually doing nothing. It’s being complicit. There are only 2 acceptable and I imagine non criminal actions to take and that’s to either stop it or raise the alarm immediately - which is the police, not a team official to get a head start on a cover up.

“My guy got a text message from one of his teammates that there was a party going on with pizza, so he went up to the room,” the agent said. “He did not know how to process what was going on when he saw what was happening in the room. He did not know if this was consensual group sex or if it was a sexual assault.

“It’s true that he did not intervene and say stop. You can judge him for not intervening. What would you do in the same situation when you were a teenager? Is this something he should lose his career and reputation over?”

The agent, who requested anonymity to protect the identity of his client, said the player left the room after about 10 minutes.

Agent says former World Junior player unsure of what he witnessed in London hotel room | TSN

A player on Canada’s 2018 World Juniors hockey team who was present in a London, Ont., hotel room at the time of an alleged sexual assault told police during their initial investigation he was not a participant in what transpired and left the room unsure of what he had witnessed, the player’s...

www.tsn.ca

If you don’t know what you witnessed then you know it wasn’t a good thing. There should be no doubt it was a consensual interaction because if you’re not sure, it most likely isn’t.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

It's extremely hypocritical that we can acknowledge the power dynamics that allowed Kyle Beach to be assaulted by a much smaller man or the perceived threat of the golf clubs and number of players in the room to the victim but totally ignore these same factors when judging the pizza players ability to do the right thing in the moment.

For all we know he was pressured to join in and it took everything in his power to muster up a way to remove himself from that situation.

Unless she was begging him for help, I'm confident the usual suspects drunk again on their own heightened sense of morality will be dead wrong on the public perception of this player.

I don't think anyone has said (though I may have missed something) that the player should (could?) have put on a cape and started beefing everyone in the moment.

But there's a pretty big leap between that and sitting around eating pizza for ten minutes while being unsure someone was getting raped.

I agree that in this particular case we should wait for more details before jumping to conclusion but the statement/context is suspicious as hell on a first read and you can't blame people for discussing that.

 

[Dr Pepper]

You ever see OJ in movies or on commercials anymore or having anything to do with football?

Comparing what OJ did with what these kids did is a bit of a stretch, I think.

Doug Gilmour and Craig McTavish are proof enough that a player can still make a career in hockey following......off-ice troubles, let's call it.

 

[MXD]

I find it crazy that this thread has turned into a witch hunt in regards to pizza guy and not the five players that have been charged with fvcking rape.

In a way... Yeah, it's crazy.

On the hand, the 5 are charged and identified. Not much left to talk and speculate about, for now anyways.

 

[Frank Drebin]

I don't think anyone has said (though I may have missed something) that the player should (could?) have put on a cape and started beefing everyone in the moment.

But there's a pretty big leap between that and sitting around eating pizza for ten minutes while being unsure someone was getting raped.

I agree that in this particular case we should wait for more details before jumping to conclusion but the statement/context is suspicious as hell on a first read and you can't blame people for discussing that.

As to your first paragraph, yes. Posters are suggesting that he should have stepped in and stopped it. Inaction isn't inaction, it's being complicit and all that.

We have zero idea what went on in that room for the 10 minutes (was it 10 minutes or was it 2 that felt like 10, or was it 45 minutes that he's trying to downplay?) that the player was in the room with the accused and the victim.

Comparing what OJ did with what these kids did is a bit of a stretch, I think.

Doug Gilmour and Craig McTavish are proof enough that a player can still make a career in hockey following......off-ice troubles, let's call it.

Different times today than 35-40 years ago

 

[MikeyMike01]

I find it crazy that this thread has turned into a witch hunt in regards to pizza guy and not the five players that have been charged with fvcking rape.

Why feel morally superior to 5 players when you can feel morally superior to 6?

 

[ACLEVERNAME]

In a way... Yeah, it's crazy.

On the hand, the 5 are charged and identified. Not much left to talk and speculate about, for now anyways.

Some are out for blood. Power dynamics. A reflection of the self. Stare into the abyss and the abyss will stare back at you.

But a boy wearing daddy's shoes.

 

[trader997]

So what do the experts think are the odds of those five guys playing another NHL game? Any precedents? The only one I remember is Voynov who got suspended by the league after police charged him with domestic violence... long before he was actually convicted. From what I recall the Kings tried to circumvent that suspension by having Voynov attend team practice but they were caught and fined 100'000 dollars.

Fair to assume that McLeod & co are done as well and about to move to Russia?

It's impossible to predict what is going to happen to the 5 guys at this point because the police have new evidence now to re-open the case. When it happened, the original guy at the bar filmed her twice after the event asking her if she was ok with this while smiling and drunk, short clips apparently and she said yes i'm ok with this. That was sufficient for the guys to get away with this originally. But i wonder, if you have to make a video of her asking her if she was ok with this, it probably means you know that you are guilty of something. Anyways we'll see, maybe just the original guy she met at the bar who got his friends involved will be guilty, we'll see.

 

[KingJoffrey]

Some people here seem to think that it's okay to sacrifice "pizza guy" for greater good.

I hope that you still think that when someone close to you gets sacrificed.