Five members from Canada’s 2018 world junior team (Hart, McLeod, Dube, Foote and Formenton) told to surrender to police, facing sexual assault charges

[Tuggy]

Can we agree that kids 'mature' and age at a different rate? Is that really a controversial thought in this scenario? Its an "Under 20" tournament - lot of disparity in a group of 22+ teammates.

I was a 'virgin' well into my 20's and I also played highschool and semi-competitive sports throughout my youth. The stories I heard straight from the horses mouth would make most of you blush or turn to violent rage (as in this thread). What should I have done? Tell the coach? Tell a parent? Go to the police?

I sat there and laughed and high-fived the other guys just like everyone else. It's a group mentality thing - it's human nature plain and simple. Whether it's 'wrong' or 'right' it doesn't really matter - it's ultimately wired into our little monkey brains to follow the herd.


I absolutely despise the hateful rhetoric of one prominent poster in this thread. Wearing a mask of virtue - I 'see' you

But that's the problem.

The vast majority of these stories get swept under the rug.

It's time to put an end to this type of culture/behavior where it's ok to high five your teammates and go on about your day. Whether it's right or wrong DOES matter.

Being immature isn't an excuse for doing something like this.

Maybe these players being made an example of will make young boys think twice about their actions and realize they are wrong and stop them from doing something really bad. It will save them and potential victims.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Why feel morally superior to 5 players when you can feel morally superior to 6?

Why wouldn't I feel morally superior to sexual assaulters? I've never sexually assaulted anyone.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

Sometimes I think people forget what it’s like to be a teenager. It’s always easy as a mature adult to say you’d denounce your friends and social circle as a teenager, but it’s probably forgotten how important that social hierarchy structure was to you as a teenager. Plenty of parents who say they have a great upstanding teenager would be shocked at how often they’d look the other way. There is bad herd mentality, a strong desire to fit in, and not go against the grain. There is a reason things like bullying are an issue and if bullying is stopped, it’s almost always because mature adults get involved. Is it right? No, but teenagers have a bad reputation for a reason. They are often immature and not their own person yet. They are always looking towards the herd, and getting ostracized from the herd is a crisis.

 

[ACLEVERNAME]

But that's the problem.

The vast majority of these stories get swept under the rug.

It's time to put an end to this type of culture/behavior where it's ok to high five your teammates and go on about your day. Whether it's right or wrong DOES matter.

Being immature isn't an excuse for doing something like this.

Maybe these players being made an example of will make young boys think twice about their actions and realize they are wrong and stop them from doing something really bad. It will save them and potential victims.

This was more to do with the 'Pizza' guy who's fallen into the crosshairs now that the 'Despicable 5' are now old and boring news to the bloodthirsty among us. Some here will argue that 'non-action' is just as guilty as the violent act (bullshit). There are a multitude of reasons why one would feel the need to keep tight lipped (or look the other way) in a situation like this.

Understand that it will never be enough for some. A new name will drop and the 'ban them' 'jail them' crowd will froth at the mouth until they've been satiated. And then onto the next...

 

[Frank Drebin]

But that's the problem.

The vast majority of these stories get swept under the rug.

It's time to put an end to this type of culture/behavior where it's ok to high five your teammates and go on about your day. Whether it's right or wrong DOES matter.

Being immature isn't an excuse for doing something like this.

Maybe these players being made an example of will make young boys think twice about their actions and realize they are wrong and stop them from doing something really bad. It will save them and potential victims.

We're not talking about excusing the sexual assaulters.

We're taking about not ruining the life and livelihood of the then teenager who walked in on a sexual assault and possibly didn't intervene in a textbook manner.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Covering up an alleged gang rape isn't massive?

Why have a conversation in bad faith? You know he was referring to the story itself not being massive on the grand sports scale, and he’s right.

We are headed into Valentines and Super Bowl weekend. This might not even make the ticker at the bottom of the screen for most sports fans.

 

[Pink Mist]

Sometimes I think people forget what it’s like to be a teenager. It’s always easy as a mature adult to say you’d denounce your friends and social circle as a teenager, but it’s probably forgotten how important that social hierarchy structure was to you as a teenager. Plenty of parents who say they have a great upstanding teenager would be shocked at how often they’d look the other way. There is bad herd mentality, a strong desire to fit in, and not go against the grain. There is a reason things like bullying are an issue and if bullying is stopped, it’s almost always because mature adults get involved. Is it right? No, but teenagers have a bad reputation for a reason. They are often immature and not their own person yet. They are always looking towards the herd, and getting ostracized from the herd is a crisis.

They aren't kids, they're legally adults and should be treated as such

 

[Gregor Samsa]

They aren't kids, they're legally adults and should be treated as such

I probably should have prefaced my post that I am talking about the witnesses and the ire towards them

 

[ACLEVERNAME]

They aren't kids, they're legally adults and should be treated as such

brain doesn't mature until 25 - Google Suche

www.google.com

 

[4thline]

We have zero idea what went on in that room for the 10 minutes (was it 10 minutes or was it 2 that felt like 10, or was it 45 minutes that he's trying to downplay?) that the player was in the room with the accused and the victim.

That's an excellent point. I think certain posters are assuming a sober pizza guy went into the room for exactly 10 minutes, and spent that 10 minutes doing nothing but eating pizza and diverting his whole attention to an obvious 5 person assault.

Challenges to that assumption
-unless he remembers exact times, has texts/pictures with times stamps "10 minutes" is likely an off the cuff guess (and drunken perception of time is... not overwhelmingly accurate)

As to what he saw and how he reacted
-there may not have been any clear and obvious sign that what was happening was non-consensual when he first came in/ until right before he decided to leave/ when he was in the room at all (I'm not disputing what EM has said- but that doesn't mean that there wasn't a period of time where the cues were less pronounced)
-there was likely competing stimuli challenging for his attention ie. TV on, somewhere between 1-6 players potentially having multiple conversations on the other side of the room from what was happening to EM
-he was likely drunk out of his gourde, and his ability to assess and comprehend his surroundings was severely compromised.
-he could be more reserved sexually, and was embarrassed by being in the room with a group sex situation and trying to ignore it
-conversely, group sex situations could be old news to him so he wasn't paying much attention to what was going on the other side of the room.

Maybe some of those are true. Maybe all. Maybe none.

The point is- sure maybe he's a complicit pervert. But also maybe he's a drunken idiot that was dealing with sensory overload not able to process and react to subtle social cues that were outside of his immediate sphere of attention.

In either case, he's not charged and quite likely a witness for the prosecution. Judgement in the public eye can and should wait.

 

[red devil]

 

[ACLEVERNAME]

As I illuded to earlier; how many thousands of post were written and or deleted over the past two weeks 'speculating' on the 5 names that were about to drop? Couldnt get enough of it - was the talk of the town. And once they were revealed? Old news, time to start hounding down a six or seventh...

You were the people who 'burned witches at the stake' not all that long ago. Time is a flat circle that repeats itself. Nothing new under the sun.

 

[Fordy]

i hope we keep getting minute to minute non updates on this very important issue. as long as you guys are having fun i guess

 

[Ninety7]

As I illuded to earlier; how many thousands of post were written and or deleted over the past two weeks 'speculating' on the 5 names that were about to drop? Couldnt get enough of it - was the talk of the town. And once they were revealed? Old news, time to start hounding down a six or seventh...

You were the people who 'burned witches at the stake' not all that long ago. Time is a flat circle that repeats itself. Nothing new under the sun.

You’re so deep bro

 

[shaner8989]

i hope we keep getting minute to minute non updates on this very important issue. as long as you guys are having fun i guess

He’s such a moron. Stop following his bs.

 

[Melrose Munch]

i hope we keep getting minute to minute non updates on this very important issue. as long as you guys are having fun i guess

do you ever say anything of substance? ignore the thread if you don't like it.

Re: the pizza guy sure it's not a good look but let's wait until he testifies. Do I wish he would have done something more? Yes. but not everyone reacts the same.

 

[Fordy]

do you ever say anything of substance? ignore the thread if you don't like it.

Re: the pizza guy sure it's not a good look but let's wait until he testifies. Do I wish he would have done something more? Yes. but not everyone reacts the same.

there’s no more substance in any of this thread. about as much as a particularly boring true crime documentary (which this will eventually be)

 

[MXD]

i hope we keep getting minute to minute non updates on this very important issue. as long as you guys are having fun i guess

He's basically offering TSN's readership/viewership a free course on one aspect of Criminal Procedure.

I suppose one can always decline free education.

 

[Frank Drebin]

That's an excellent point. I think certain posters are assuming a sober pizza guy went into the room for exactly 10 minutes, and spent that 10 minutes doing nothing but eating pizza and diverting his whole attention to an obvious 5 person assault.

Challenges to that assumption
-unless he remembers exact times, has texts/pictures with times stamps "10 minutes" is likely an off the cuff guess (and drunken perception of time is... not overwhelmingly accurate)

As to what he saw and how he reacted
-there may not have been any clear and obvious sign that what was happening was non-consensual when he first came in/ until right before he decided to leave/ when he was in the room at all (I'm not disputing what EM has said- but that doesn't mean that there wasn't a period of time where the cues were less pronounced)
-there was likely competing stimuli challenging for his attention ie. TV on, somewhere between 1-6 players potentially having multiple conversations on the other side of the room from what was happening to EM
-he was likely drunk out of his gourde, and his ability to assess and comprehend his surroundings was severely compromised.
-he could be more reserved sexually, and was embarrassed by being in the room with a group sex situation and trying to ignore it
-conversely, group sex situations could be old news to him so he wasn't paying much attention to what was going on the other side of the room.

Maybe some of those are true. Maybe all. Maybe none.

The point is- sure maybe he's a complicit pervert. But also maybe he's a drunken idiot that was dealing with sensory overload not able to process and react to subtle social cues that were outside of his immediate sphere of attention.

In either case, he's not charged and quite likely a witness for the prosecution. Judgement in the public eye can and should wait.

The thought of it being non consensual may have not even occurred to him until the following day.

I remember back in my heavy drinking days you wouldn't even remember critical moments of the prior night till later in the day.

I think not acting ideally when you walk in on the scene of a crime because you were heavily intoxicated is a valid excuse.

 

[MikeyMike01]

This was more to do with the 'Pizza' guy who's fallen into the crosshairs now that the 'Despicable 5' are now old and boring news to the bloodthirsty among us. Some here will argue that 'non-action' is just as guilty as the violent act (bullshit). There are a multitude of reasons why one would feel the need to keep tight lipped (or look the other way) in a situation like this.

Understand that it will never be enough for some. A new name will drop and the 'ban them' 'jail them' crowd will froth at the mouth until they've been satiated. And then onto the next...

The most devout among us usually have the guiltiest consciences.

 

[Pink Mist]

brain doesn't mature until 25 - Google Suche

www.google.com

"doesn't fully mature until age 25" =/= totally incapable of decision making and good judgement. People love to use that study and misinterpret it.

There's a reason age 25 isnt the age we determine someone can be criminally responsible, or for the age of consent, or the age you can get a license, drink alcohol, join the military, buy a gun etc etc

 

[MXD]

The most devout among us usually have the guiltiest consciences.

You're indeed very devout about shaming, or at least trying to shame, people who have some concerns about sexual assaulters.

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

I wouldnt be so quick to absolve other players on the team just because 5 players have been now charged.

Don't forget there were 8 players in the room so theres 3 that at best witnessed it and did nothing, or at worst participated but the police determined they would not be able to stick a charge on them due to lack of evidence.

There's a lot more to come in this and we've barely scratched the surface on what occured and who was involved

Cool.

Until others are formerly charged don't slander people's name is what I'm saying.

 

[McSpecial DraiBlend]

What's weird to me is that the closer this got to charges being filed the better Mcleod got, He was on track for a career year and getting close to a faceoff % record.

Meanwhile Hart was regressing and losing his starter position and Dube was on track to have his worst season.

Does he just have nerves of steel?

You would think he'd be a twitchy mess and accidently shooting pucks into the stands.

Sign of a true Narcissist possibly?

 

[I am toxic]

Are all gangbangs sexual assaults?

If not, what are some visual clues that a gangbang is a sexual assault?

Does the absence of these visual clues mean that a sexual assault did not occur?

What part of "no consent was ever communicated" did you not understand?