Five members from Canada’s 2018 world junior team (Hart, McLeod, Dube, Foote and Formenton) told to surrender to police, facing sexual assault charges

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WATTAGE4451

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Naw. The only way to change this behavior is to root it all out and punish everyone. If you got a text and didn't say anything? Indefinite suspension. FEAR will change future players behavior. Yeah, some will be sacrificed for the greater good. That is how you change culture. Sorry but not sorry. It will be easy to connect the dots. Any player that had previous knowledge and didn't speak up...see ya. Then you move onto the GMs that KNEW and did nothing. It'll be a bloodbath but that is how you usher in change. Otherwise, you'll have the same crap happen again and again.
Or that causes a situation where a scared kid who was in shock and processing what happened at the time, and needed time to reassess, now will never come forward because ifnthey speak of that they found out anything, they will ruin themselves by doing the right thing later.

Player 6 who got pizza then left uncomfortable but did nothing to stop or call police screwed up- yes- but he did tell thw police his story and is doing so again. Your policy would encourage guys like him to not come forwatd later cuz they will be punished the same.
 
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Lazlo Hollyfeld

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A lot of rapes aren’t going to involve screaming or fighting back. I’d imagine the victim wants to mollify the attacker(s), not make the situation worse, and get it over with. Pizza guy could have come up for a slice, saw what was going on, felt uncomfortable for some reason, but think “well, there have been girls that have done this before”, and taken his slice and bounced. We don’t know what he saw or thought but we’ll find out, I’m sure. No reason to think the girl cried out to him for help and she probably thought he’s one of them. Probably best to withhold the call for blood for someone who can be a key piece in putting these guys away

Agreed. People need to look up what the freeze response is regarding rape.

It's not as simple as "why didn't she fight back? Why didn't she try and get away?"
 

MacMacandBarbie

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TopC0rner

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If I walk into a hotel room and a gangbang is in process, if the woman acknowledges my presence without asking me to leave, I would interpret that as consent to be there. Pretty sure the law would as well.
That's not how consent works. That said, I don't believe just being there by itself would constitute sexual assault. Imo, so long as someone didn't participate (either verbally or physically), I think blaming them is a bit harsh.
 

Gregor Samsa

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What if...and just hear me out because this is going to be a wild though...what committing rape was the thing that got you ostracized from the herd?
I think you are misunderstanding my post. And rapists have a huge stigma attached to them. Ask anyone if they would love to be put on a sex offender’s list
 

Frank Drebin

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That's not how consent works. That said, I don't believe just being there by itself would constitute sexual assault. Imo, so long as someone didn't participate (either verbally or physically), I think blaming them is a bit harsh.
I was confused on the receiving consent thing. Simply for being in the room it would have to be implied.
 

BE Friend

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So you're not necessarily wrong, but there were significant legislative changes made in response to the Ghomeshi trial - specifically s. 278.92. Defence can no longer lie in wait with text messages and the like.

And Ghomeshi's own version of events made him out to be a total creep, even if not guilty, so not surprised to see the public wants nothing to do with him.

Will one or more plead guilty? Maybe, but I doubt it. No one will get a slap on the wrist if they enter a plea. A good rule of thumb (NOT etched in stone or caselaw) is about a one third to one half reduction in sentence. So maybe instead of 2 years (as suggested in the Westhead article) someone might get 1 year in jail. But 1 year in jail is still a long time. Many might prefer to roll the dice.
What will the strategy be with the actual trial - 5 separate trials? Could that be done? Can one opt for a non jury trial? leave it to a judge alone? Yes Ghomeshi was sick predator. But he got the not guilty verdict - from a judge alone I think. I can see that here too. Even if their actions look pretty ugly. Whipping out a phone for a video deposition post sexual act is not a great look. The Crown questions will be easy:
Q. Why did you make that recording sir?
Q. Is this something you routinely do?
Q. Where did you get the idea to do this?
 

AnInjuredJasonZucker

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We're talking about recognizing sexual assault and intervening. Posters feel that player 6/pizza player should lose his livelihood for not intervening while not even knowing what that player heard or saw while in the room
And somebody thought that total brain maturation was some kind of defense, which provably and laughably false. I was commenting on the terrible argument.
 

Golden_Jet

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What will the strategy be with the actual trial - 5 separate trials? Could that be done? Can one opt for a non jury trial? leave it to a judge alone? Yes Ghomeshi was sick predator. But he got the not guilty verdict - from a judge alone I think. I can see that here too. Even if their actions look pretty ugly. Whipping out a phone for a video deposition post sexual act is not a great look. The Crown questions will be easy:
Q. Why did you make that recording sir?
Q. Is this something you routinely do?
Q. Where did you get the idea to do this?
It could be 5 or combined, if 5 trials, that will be hard for E.M.,going over everything 5x, and 5 trials might not get completed in time, for due process.

If done as one trial and 4 choose 12 jurors and one chooses judge, it will be 12 jurors.
 

Gregor Samsa

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Agreed. People need to look up what the freeze response is regarding rape.

It's not as simple as "why didn't she fight back? Why didn't she try and get away?"
Exactly. I’d imagine walking in on a “let the team hit it” type scenario and a gang rape would look similar. The woman just wants to survive(plenty of women have been killed during sexual assaults), or not provoke her attackers. I’m sure there is a psychological aspect to it too which would make it worse for a woman who says she isn’t cool with this and wants to leave to find herself being held down by multiple men and it continues. There is a lot of self preservation involved for women in these situations
 

Frank Drebin

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And somebody thought that total brain maturation was some kind of defense, which provably and laughably false. I was commenting on the terrible argument.
The only defense that player needs, as of now, is in the court of public opinion.

There will be those that will want his blood, given what I know now I feel those opinions are irrelevant
 

SupremeTeam16

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I think you're being very unfair with all this "angry mob" and "pound of flesh" language.

More serious cases take precedence over less serious cases. I think this fairly obvious and common sense. The court will take a sex assault as having more priority than a drunk driving, even if that means the drunk driving gets stayed. If it came down to one sex assault versus another - well not sure what they'd do.

Defence lawyers don't have the same interest in seeing things move quite so quickly - but they're professionals also and aren't going to deliberately try to stall things. Or if they do - the courts can refuse to count certain amounts of time as against the Jordan deadline.
I don’t think my comments are unfair, people only see what they want to see and it’s not hard to see that there are certain political undertones tied to this case, how often does a SA become a parliamentary issue? SA cases including much more egregious and sometimes violent cases happen and are tried almost weekly and nobody cares to pay attention, why is this one so important? I linked an article of a SA case being stayed because of a lack of court resources, where’s the public outcry for that victim? The truth is that for the public, this case is more about knocking down the accused than it is about justice for the victim.

And I wasn’t suggesting that the defence would purposely delay in hopes of the Jordan decision coming into effect just that strategically it benefits them to be extremely thorough which generally results in the prosecution and courts having to allocate more time and resources.
 

AnInjuredJasonZucker

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I think it would be best to admit you’re out of your depth on this topic if linking an NPR article as if it was a peer reviewed case study is your go to move when presented with arguments you don’t like or agree with. Not to mention it doesn’t even support your point well.
This is not groundbreaking stuff. It has been the subject of peer reviewed studies. I'm not sure how pointing out that toddlers know the difference between right and wrong isn't a cogent rebuttal against an argument that the people involved couldn't possibly be accountable because their brains aren't fully mature.
 

Yukon Joe

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What will the strategy be with the actual trial - 5 separate trials? Could that be done? Can one opt for a non jury trial? leave it to a judge alone? Yes Ghomeshi was sick predator. But he got the not guilty verdict - from a judge alone I think. I can see that here too. Even if their actions look pretty ugly. Whipping out a phone for a video deposition post sexual act is not a great look. The Crown questions will be easy:
Q. Why did you make that recording sir?
Q. Is this something you routinely do?
Q. Where did you get the idea to do this?

Can five separate trials be done? Yes. Defence would have to ask for severance, for 2 or more separate trials. The Crown will point out how it's easier to have only 1 trial since the complainant and all other witnesses only have to testify once. The person asking for severance would have to show why having 1 big trial would be unfair. The experts asked by Westhead seemed to think severance is unlikely.

Can one opt for a non-jury trial? Each Accused will be given three choices - trial in lower court, trial in higher court with a judge alone, and trial in higher court with judge and jury. The thing is - the highest election wins. If only 1 elects judge and jury, then they all go judge and jury. That being said defence will all talk about it behind closed doors. The traditional thinking was a jury is the better election on sexual assaults, but that may have changed.

Do remember all five Accuseds get to decide whether to testify or not. If they don't testify, the Crown can't cross-examine them. And even then - typically in cross-examination you only want to ask questions you already know the answer to, so those might not in fact be great questions.

Think more like:

Q. You took this video?
Q. On your own phone?
Q. Of the girl you just had sex with?
Q. You asked her to confirm the sex was consensual?
Q. That's because you were worried she would say it wasn't consensual, right?
Q. You were worried she would say it wasn't consensual because of how drunk she was, right?
 

Yukon Joe

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That doesn't negate the fact that brains aren't fully mature until age 25.

We have two cut-offs in criminal law. First of all is age 12. Under age of 12 you can not be charged at all. Then, ages 12-17 you go to youth court. The penalties are much less severe, but you still get punished. Then of course at age 18 you go to adult court.

The thing is those numbers are arbitrary - because you have to draw them somewhere. But really it's a continuum or bain development, as said until age 25.
 

WATTAGE4451

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Agreed. People need to look up what the freeze response is regarding rape.

It's not as simple as "why didn't she fight back? Why didn't she try and get away?"
Or not just rape but traumatic experiences in general. A lot of people freeze and enter state of shock under pressure. Also reoevant to prople not intervening is the bystander effect and the kitty genovese murder. A lot of the same people condemning also freeze in same circumstances when it happens to them kr around people they thought they knew
 

MacMacandBarbie

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This is not groundbreaking stuff. It has been the subject of peer reviewed studies. I'm not sure how pointing out that toddlers know the difference between right and wrong isn't a cogent rebuttal against an argument that the people involved couldn't possibly be accountable because their brains aren't fully mature.
You’re getting into clinical definitions of morality and behavior. Obviously a toddler doesn’t know if rape is right or wrong, a toddler can’t even grasp the concept of rape. You’re being intellectually dishonest if you think the poster you’re talking to is referring to psychologist Judi Smetana’s guidelines and definitions on morality.

A better rebuttal would be talking about how that is a weak legal argument it seems.
 
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Doshell Propivo

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If I walk into a hotel room and a gangbang is in process, if the woman acknowledges my presence without asking me to leave, I would interpret that as consent to be there. Pretty sure the law would as well.
LOL. Ask you to leave??

"Excuse me sir! Do you mind!? Can a lady have some privacy please?? Can't you see I'm in the middle of a gang bang? Please excuse yourself."
 

rielledup

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People going after pizza guy and wanting his livelihood ruined or thinking he's just as bad as the SAers are insane. You have no idea what he witnessed or what was going through his head. 5 star junior players being charged is enough of a message that SA isn't going to be tolerated anymore, you don't need to go after pizza guy to send a message.
 
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Edgelord

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I don’t think my comments are unfair, people only see what they want to see and it’s not hard to see that there are certain political undertones tied to this case, how often does a SA become a parliamentary issue? SA cases including much more egregious and sometimes violent cases happen and are tried almost weekly and nobody cares to pay attention, why is this one so important? I linked an article of a SA case being stayed because of a lack of court resources, where’s the public outcry for that victim? The truth is that for the public, this case is more about knocking down the accused than it is about justice for the victim.

And I wasn’t suggesting that the defence would purposely delay in hopes of the Jordan decision coming into effect just that strategically it benefits them to be extremely thorough which generally results in the prosecution and courts having to allocate more time and resources.
I have seen the same thing in the news in England, especially in what's reported and what isn't.
LOL. Ask you to leave??

"Excuse me sir! Do you mind!? Can a lady have some privacy please?? Can't you see I'm in the middle of a gang bang? Please excuse yourself."
It may sound silly but some form of multi-partner etiquette education could probably stop a fair amount of rapes.
I have no idea what the etiquette is, do you tag in like the WWE or just announce yourself, Deadly here, comin in at 4 O'clock lol
 

Doshell Propivo

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It may sound silly but some form of multi-partner etiquette education could probably stop a fair amount of rapes.
I have no idea what the etiquette is, do you tag in like the WWE or just announce yourself, Deadly here, comin in at 4 O'clock lol
Right. Or what if you're just there for the pizza? Is it ok to eat pizza and watch or is that frowned upon?
 
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