Five members from Canada’s 2018 world junior team (Hart, McLeod, Dube, Foote and Formenton) told to surrender to police, facing sexual assault charges

[Edgelord]

I don't think you need to get into the ins and outs of group sex, just more sex education in general. More education about consent, coercion, etc. Understanding why someone might not say no to something they don't want and the damage that it can do to an individual. I think a lot of people cross lines they don't realize that would fall into SA.

100%, something innocuous to the guys could be intimidation to the girl
Or I bet there are girls out there who don't know either who have been assaulted and don't know it.
This calls for better education on all sides.
Sure we can point out the flaws in sport culture but our main goal should be to stop things like this from happening

 

[red devil]

Before the lawsuit they got involved the day after the assualt actually, but dropped the case and didnt proceed citing lack of evidence, suddenly after the lawsuit became public, the police reopened the case. No idea if new evidence came to light ir the original dectectives or da botched it or were paid off.

Robyn Doolittle was on a podcast and mentioned in the original police investigation they didn't even know about the group text chain. Also, they didn't properly or fully interview witnesses and example is the older man at the bar that night who was giving her drinks and said take care him.

 

[Edgelord]

Robyn Doolittle was on a podcast and mentioned in the original police investigation they didn't even know about the group text chain. Also, they didn't properly or fully interview witnesses and example is the older man at the bar that night who was giving her drinks and said take care him.

This is 1 area I hope gets looked into more. It could be a nothing burger or it could be something way bigger.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Huh? I think most of us agree that there's a massive culture issue within hockey, yes? The next step is eradicating it. Changing the culture. You still want to handle these men with kid gloves? That sounds like more enabling to me. You're trying to tell me that going after and rooting out the evil will create an even bigger vow of silence? GMAFB. You might as well have said boys will be boys...in the past, present and future. There's nothing we can do about it.

EDIT: The lawyer was trying to preempt something...either she saw him there and would be able to identify(or already did) or maybe his voice is heard on said video. But something was tying him to the crime scene/time line. Pizza boy's career is probably over in the NHL.

5-10 minute pizza guy might get a suspension, but I don’t think his career is over. If no charges, I’m not seeing it, it would be grieved by the PA, when others have done much worse, and got second chances. One example, vehicular homicide by an impaired driver.

 

[Koivu11]

 

[Edgelord]

If you want ti call for hockey canada to be abolisherld im fine with that. Going after pizza guy who did nothing, was in shock but is cooperating as witness- that is dumb and wont change a thing. You should do research from pschologists. Ypu talk a big game but would probably freeze just like pizza guy. I actually was an abuse victim and my mom froze and ignored it when i told her. Cancelling people who froze in shock will never end people freezing in shock. Do some research and consult some actual experts on the field.

100% its a real thing, I have a few buddies who served in Afghanistan and have heard stories.

 

[red devil]

Bettman is getting testy with a journalist

 

[Golden_Jet]

Bettman is getting testy with a journalist

Ya Doolittle, let Westhead have a question.

 

[AnInjuredJasonZucker]

That doesn't negate the fact that brains aren't fully mature until age 25.

We have two cut-offs in criminal law. First of all is age 12. Under age of 12 you can not be charged at all. Then, ages 12-17 you go to youth court. The penalties are much less severe, but you still get punished. Then of course at age 18 you go to adult court.

The thing is those numbers are arbitrary - because you have to draw them somewhere. But really it's a continuum or bain development, as said until age 25.

And there are degrees of responsibility and accountability that society generally places on people based on that continuum - and well beyond brain development (at age 25). Knowledge and experience acquisition, and the corresponding responsibility continues into late adulthood.

The point is that sexual assault shouldn't have to clear the bar of full brain maturity. But that's just one of the many defenses put up for the indefensible.

 

[I am toxic]

Wait, the pizza guy was supposed to receive consent? For what exactly?

And you know for a fact that he witnessed what you said he witnessed? He saw the men ejaculating on her, with golf clubs in hand? You have a source for that?

whatever he witnessed was so shocking to him that he couldn't process it.

Again, if you can't tell if it is a gang bang or a gang rape, default to the latter. Don't make excuses to cover up a likely gang rape.

 

[Melrose Munch]

 

[AnInjuredJasonZucker]

You’re getting into clinical definitions of morality and behavior. Obviously a toddler doesn’t know if rape is right or wrong, a toddler can’t even grasp the concept of rape. You’re being intellectually dishonest if you think the poster you’re talking to is referring to psychologist Judi Smetana’s guidelines and definitions on morality.

A better rebuttal would be talking about how that is a weak legal argument it seems.

You keep forgetting that I was responding to someone who was tacitly suggesting that since they weren't 25, they can't be reasonably considered adults, and as a result, can't bear full responsibility. In light of that intellectual dishonesty, the hyperbole is a fair rhetorical device.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Who cares about the Pizza Guy until he testifies? Focus on the perpetrators.

 

[Oscar The Grouch]

Translation
- we did an investigation and purposely waited and waited to release the findings, knowing the police would eventually release theirs' first, allowing us not to ever release ours.

- the players in question will play overseas until a trial is completed.

 

[I am toxic]

If she was inebriated, I highly doubt this would hold up.

If she was stone cold sober, acknowledging one's presence is not consent to sex, gang bang or otherwise. Like wtf?

 

[AnInjuredJasonZucker]

I'm curious what others think, but this seems like a huge PR fail. They're fielding questions on this in front of the ASG banners with sponsors' names on there. They should have set up a separate media avail specifically to address the charges, and with a bare backdrop that doesn't tie it to the league's glamour event.

 

[Dr Pepper]

If she was stone cold sober, acknowledging one's presence is not consent to sex, gang bang or otherwise. Like wtf?

Also true.

 

[OG Eberle]

The pizza guy knew that? He could tell that in the "first ten seconds"?

Does consent have to be continually repeated?

Yes. Yes it does.

If at any time, something novel happens or something changes throughout an ongoing process, consent needs to be had. If there is any bit of apprehension or hesitation, or not clear "yes, I agree to this new act/change/action", then consent is not had.

If I walk into a hotel room and a gangbang is in process, if the woman acknowledges my presence without asking me to leave, I would interpret that as consent to be there. Pretty sure the law would as well.

That is not consent and you would be interpreting it wrong.

No, the law would not consider that consent in this case either.

I'm talking about consent to be in the room

You clearly have a very very very poor understanding of what consent means. I would recommend you read up on it and ethics/law behind it because you seem to have an offputting and disturbing level of misunderstanding on this.

Source: health care professional who has to get consent in three different ways before treatment/assement and during for whichever new method/action is introduced.

Any person who works in healthcare, law, or generally common-sense individual should understand this at a purely human and ethical level.

 

[T REX]

Gutless, spineless coward. Bettman the invertebrate. Wait till they start asking about why Formenton was blackballed by the entire league? Again, it won't take much to figure who knew what. And tell me the timing of all this wasn't meant to send a message to all the hockey leagues. We are going upstage your biggest All-Star weekend. Message received.

 

[Dr Pepper]

I'm curious what others think, but this seems like a huge PR fail. They're fielding questions on this in front of the ASG banners with sponsors' names on there. They should have set up a separate media avail specifically to address the charges, and with a bare backdrop that doesn't tie it to the league's glamour event.

Maybe they did, but one journo didn't get the memo (or ignored it and brought the case up anyway).

Good, though. The NHL can't hide from this anymore.

Can't pretend everything's just sunshine and rainbows when it comes to pro hockey, with shit like that going on at the same time.

 

[Oscar The Grouch]

Bettman having to deal with ACTUAL investigative journalists like the legendary Robyn Doolittle is....

Good luck Gary!

 

[RegDunlop]

Bettman conviently 'just' completed the in house investigation and they were 'just' discussing how to move forward when the 5 were summoned.

OOOOOOKKKKKK. Right then

 

[WATTAGE4451]

While I am sorry that happened to you. You know nothing of me and to attack me personally because of my opinion is uncalled for...now we have people comparing pizza boy's experience to soldiers in Afghanistan.

I'm calling for accountability. Nothing more. As stated upthread, the statement sounds more like getting ahead of the possible implications and optics of whatever happened during those ten minutes(and possible texts he made afterward). We'll see. I'll gladly acknowledge his hero status when it becomes clear. But right now, he looks like a POS to me.

Back to our regularly scheduled personal attacks.

Funny you said im attacking you when you said im part of the problem and contributing to the circle of silence in a previous post. Lol. Im not attacking just as much saying you cant attck and ban these people and expect it to effe t anything. Regardless of what he was thinking, banning pizza guy isnt gonna change anything. Whenever another incident happens again, that teen that sees something is gonna be in shock and processing wth happened, not about what happened to pizza guy. Organizations that have training on how to deal with reports should be held more accountable but leople shocked in the moment dont deserve to be cancelled, eslecially if they are coming forqard and cooperating later.

And the afghan situation while different is same conceot about how humans react to shock and traumtic events.

 

[red devil]

I wonder if the names Strickland new on Aug 1 are the same names. Also, wonder if Foote was one of the names that he heard as the podcast came out on Aug 1 and Foote was signed on Aug 9.

 

[Edgelord]

Yes. Yes it does.

If at any time, something novel happens or something changes throughout an ongoing process, consent needs to be had. If there is any bit of apprehension or hesitation, or not clear "yes, I agree to this new act/change/action", then consent is not had.



That is not consent and you would be interpreting it wrong.

No, the law would not consider that consent in this case either.



You clearly have a very very very poor understanding of what consent means. I would recommend you read up on it and ethics/law behind it because you seem to have an offputting and disturbing level of misunderstanding on this.

Source: health care professional who has to get consent in three different ways before treatment/assement and during for whichever new method/action is introduced.

Any person who works in healthcare, law, or generally common-sense individual should understand this at a purely human and ethical level.

I remember my wife and I discussing these style of consent rules and for fun we tried and it was outright laughable how they expect couples to be intimate. I am sure we may have overdone it on consent requests but we followed the law to the letter and its silly.
It removed all intimacy and turned something erotic into a tit for tat clinical exercise