Five members from Canada’s 2018 world junior team (Hart, McLeod, Dube, Foote and Formenton) told to surrender to police, facing sexual assault charges

[Oscar The Grouch]

If I walk into a hotel room and a gangbang is in process, if the woman acknowledges my presence without asking me to leave, I would interpret that as consent to be there. Pretty sure the law would as well.

You clearly have no idea how consent works.

Do you know that there are tons of resources out there on the internet regarding consent? You keep asking consent-related issues on a hockey board. All of these are easily answered out there, via google.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

The stigma hits when they're outed, for sure.

I’m just trying to say the vast majority of rapes won’t have a sign posted above. For every ski mask wearing, knife wielding assailant there are dozens of not hundreds of incidents that fall into what I suppose is called the gray zone. Idk if it still exists or if it still has content like it used to, but I remember sites like motherless having a lot of vids that got my spidey senses tingling because the girl looked underage or it looked like it could be a sexual assault. Could I claim with certainty it was either? No. I imagine that is how pizza guy felt.

The point I was trying to make about teenagers fitting in and having herd mentality is that it’s easier for us as adults to act differently than teenagers. We are more comfortable in our own skin. We don’t care about fitting in as much; those who mind don’t matter, those that matter don’t mind type of situation. A teenager would probably be self conscious about stepping in if they were in pizza guy’s shoes. If he says something or tries to break it up and it is totally consensual he is probably worried about being on the outside looking in after his friends call him a “Homophobic Slur” or a “cockblock” or something. As adults, we wouldn’t care, we know our intentions are noble and likely to be understood if explained; a teenager is more self conscious about losing their friends or social circle, especially if it’s a very small and tight one with lots of prestige and power, not to mention those people will be his colleagues in his career when he’s older

 

[Sol]

So I just read an article to catch up, the guys have been charged of sexual assault, but not convicted right? I didn’t read anywhere in the article I read that there was a confirmed assault that happened, so it could be one persons word against anothers? The only thing that was read about the CBC article is that they have a slush fund for this… that was weird.

 

[Yukon Joe]

So I just read an article to catch up, the guys have been charged of sexual assault, but not convicted right? I didn’t read anywhere in the article I read that there was a confirmed assault that happened, so it could be one persons word against anothers? The only thing that was read about the CBC article is that they have a slush fund for this… that was weird.

Hockey Canada already settled a lawsuit brought by the complainant, yes using a slush fund.

Yes, charged but not convicted.

 

[Edgelord]

Right. Or what if you're just there for the pizza? Is it ok to eat pizza and watch or is that frowned upon?

Exactly, orgies etc have been a part of humanity probably forever,
So why not teach 1st yr college kids how consent and group sex can work together?
Hell even guys my age prob don't know either. 1 slice is ok but 2 is straight to jail?

 

[Sol]

Hockey Canada already settled a lawsuit brought by the complainant, yes using a slush fund.

Yes, charged but not convicted.

Did the police get involved before or after the lawsuit?

 

[Yukon Joe]

Did the police get involved before or after the lawsuit?

Matter initially reported to police shortly after the incident. Police did little.

After lawsuit concluded police re-open investigation, leads to charges.

 

[T REX]

If I walk into a hotel room and a gangbang is in process, if the woman acknowledges my presence without asking me to leave, I would interpret that as consent to be there. Pretty sure the law would as well.

I don't even have the words to respond to this.

I recommend not attending any pizza related text events you receive.

Just to be on the "safe" side. Pretty sure, eh?

SMDH.

 

[Edgelord]

You clearly have no idea how consent works.

Do you that there are tons of resources out there on the internet regarding consent? You keep asking consent-related issues on a hockey board. All of these are easily answered out there, via google.

In the context of multi-partner fornication, it may not be the easiest to confirm consent. Odds are she will be pretty busy.
So the whole event would have to stop,
I assume there is an element of implied consent if she acknowledges you while you're naked in the room.
However its crucial that they look for any signs of distress and if anything feels off GTFO

 

[TopC0rner]

Think more like:

Q. You took this video?
Q. On your own phone?
Q. Of the girl you just had sex with?
Q. You asked her to confirm the sex was consensual?
Q. That's because you were worried she would say it wasn't consensual, right?
Q. You were worried she would say it wasn't consensual because of how drunk she was, right?

Wouldn't the last two questions be objected as leading on the witness?

 

[Sol]

Matter initially reported to police shortly after the incident. Police did little.

After lawsuit concluded police re-open investigation, leads to charges.

That’s really strange. Well until then let’s wait until trial if they’re guilty so they can be convicted I guess. Nothing good ever comes from guessing first.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

Exactly, orgies etc have been a part of humanity probably forever,
So why not teach 1st yr college kids how consent and group sex can work together?
Hell even guys my age prob don't know either. 1 slice is ok but 2 is straight to jail?

Men are often oblivious is social situations if something isn’t explicitly stated. Women could be having a seemingly mundane conversation if I was listening but it’s fraught with subtext and nuance that goes over my head but has implications for the women talking.

 

[Frank Drebin]

LOL. Ask you to leave??

"Excuse me sir! Do you mind!? Can a lady have some privacy please?? Can't you see I'm in the middle of a gang bang? Please excuse yourself."

as opposed to being invited to the room and asking, "can I stay"

 

[Yukon Joe]

Wouldn't the last two questions be objected as leading on the witness?

Nope! You're allowed to lead the witness on cross.


Maybe I'll expand. There are two kinds of examination - direct examination, and cross-examination.

Direct examination is when it's your own witness. So the Crown, calling the complainant, conducts a direct examination.

In direct exam you can not ask leading questions - they have to be open ended questions. Now that being said open-ended questions can still be a lot more direct than "tell me what happened". And you are allowed to lead on non-contentious areas "So this all happened in London Ontario" would probably be allowed.

Defence asking questions of Crown witnesses, or Crown asking questions of defence witnesses, is cross-examination and you can ask leading questions all day.

 

[Edgelord]

Men are often oblivious is social situations if something isn’t explicitly stated. Women could be having a seemingly mundane conversation if I was listening but it’s fraught with subtext and nuance that goes over my head but has implications for the women talking.

true,
Whoever's place it is should be kinda like the captain and establish clear rules and who is in for what.
I know IMO if the degrading details are true I find it upsetting, I fig they should have been carrying her around the room like she just won them the cup.
But there are stories of powerful women being into that kind of stuff so I dunno.

 

[PunchImlach is Alive]

I don't think I've formed much of an opinion just yet on the pizza guy just yet simply because there are so few details of what that was even about. Whatever his agent has to say is basically irrelevant until we start getting a timeline of events but it is reading as someone trying to get ahead of something that could get revealed.

What I will say is that while a lot of technicalities may absolve the pizza guy in court and it's tough getting into someone's head in a moment like that without the details, it still calls back with an issue within hockey culture.

One thing I haven't seen come up in this thread is the "Junior Hockey Bible" which was brought into the public eye ten years ago. That should have been a reckoning and conversations about toxic behaviors found at this level should have been prioritized. Coaches, leadership, and management should have been able to easily point to that as being wrong and what to do if you are finding yourself in these situations. It's important to consider because just about every aspect of this case was celebrated and encouraged in the Junior Hockey Bible. Had those conversations happened or if it had been made into a teachable moment, it may not have necessarily stopped what had happened but I think it would have given some people pause if it had been drilled into their heads. So now you have a case where maybe (at best) a player did feel uncomfortable with what they were seeing and left and yet still omitted from talking to anyone else about it until they started feeling the heat. Doing the right thing isn't always easy but it's generally going to keep you out of trouble.

 

[Yukon Joe]

But there are stories of powerful women being into that kind of stuff so I dunno.

Not that I'm into kink, or BDSM type stuff, but as I understand it people who are are VERY careful about establishing consent up front, including limits and safewords.

 

[T REX]

I don't think I've formed much of an opinion just yet on the pizza guy just yet simply because there are so few details of what that was even about. Whatever his agent has to say is basically irrelevant until we start getting a timeline of events but it is reading as someone trying to get ahead of something that could get revealed.

What I will say is that while a lot of technicalities may absolve the pizza guy in court and it's tough getting into someone's head in a moment like that without the details, it still calls back with an issue within hockey culture.

One thing I haven't seen come up in this thread is the "Junior Hockey Bible" which was brought into the public eye ten years ago. That should have been a reckoning and conversations about toxic behaviors found at this level should have been prioritized. Coaches, leadership, and management should have been able to easily point to that as being wrong and what to do if you are finding yourself in these situations. It's important to consider because just about every aspect of this case was celebrated and encouraged in the Junior Hockey Bible. Had those conversations happened or if it had been made into a teachable moment, it may not have necessarily stopped what had happened but I think it would have given some people pause if it had been drilled into their heads. So now you have a case where maybe (at best) a player did feel uncomfortable with what they were seeing and left and yet still omitted from talking to anyone else about it until they started feeling the heat. Doing the right thing isn't always easy but it's generally going to keep you out of trouble.

Great post. I literally said the same up thread. The statement reads as if there is something that is going to make pizza boy look very bad in the eyes of the public. Some are trying to make him into som etype of "good guy" for speaking up. IMHO, when the dust settles, he's going to look bad in most of our eyes except the boys will be boys crowd and the their brains weren't fully developed crowd.

 

[TageGod]

This should really stick to its impact on Hockey, the players, and their teams. We shouldn't be reading posters arguing what consent is or speculation of details during the assault.

 

[Edgelord]

Not that I'm into kink, or BDSM type stuff, but as I understand it people who are are VERY careful about establishing consent up front, including limits and safewords.

So I guess older or the more experienced have it figured out but the younger guys who have options 99% of us never see, need to be way better educated.
But who would want to teach a bunch of 16yr olds the ins and outs of group sex?
Babs put your hand down lol

 

[Gregor Samsa]

true,
Whoever's place it is should be kinda like the captain and establish clear rules and who is in for what.
I know IMO if the degrading details are true I find it upsetting, I fig they should have been carrying her around the room like she just won them the cup.
But there are stories of powerful women being into that kind of stuff so I dunno.

I feel like most would rather have a spontaneous passionate encounter than a level headed talk setting the ground rules, but maybe the latter is needed in times like these as awareness becomes more important

As a guy, you’re told you have to be the action taker, you have to make the move, women like a confident guy who knows what he wants and how to get it. You’re also told women will play hard to get. A woman’s reputation is important to her. A man with sexual prowess who gets a lot of women is generally seen as a good thing. The opposite is true for women and modesty takes importance. Perhaps it’s the clash of these different ideals in western society that have brought about this time

 

[Melrose Munch]

guys it won't be 5 separate trials, come on.

 

[Korpse]

But who would want to teach a bunch of 16yr olds the ins and outs of group sex?

I don't think you need to get into the ins and outs of group sex, just more sex education in general. More education about consent, coercion, etc. Understanding why someone might not say no to something they don't want and the damage that it can do to an individual. I think a lot of people cross lines they don't realize that would fall into SA.

 

[Edgelord]

I feel like most would rather have a spontaneous passionate encounter than a level headed talk setting the ground rules, but maybe the latter is needed in times like these as awareness becomes more important

As a guy, you’re told you have to be the action taker, you have to make the move, women like a confident guy who knows what he wants and how to get it. You’re also told women will play hard to get. A woman’s reputation is important to her. A man with sexual prowess who gets a lot of women is generally seen as a good thing. The opposite is true for women and modesty takes importance. Perhaps it’s the clash of these different ideals in western society that have brought about this time

I think you can do both,
make the 1st move but ask questions in a way that can affirm consent or give her an out if she isn't feeling it.

 

[WATTAGE4451]

Did the police get involved before or after the lawsuit?

Before the lawsuit they got involved the day after the assualt actually, but dropped the case and didnt proceed citing lack of evidence, suddenly after the lawsuit became public, the police reopened the case. No idea if new evidence came to light ir the original dectectives or da botched it or were paid off.