OT: Fitness and Nutrition IX

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Kriss E

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May 3, 2007
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We just have the one vegan tho
Hes the typical veganhead though. You can tell him how the man behind his pro-vegan documentaries is one of the biggest investors in vegan protein, he will refuse to admit there is a conflict.

Its really not all that different from the crazy Crossfit cult where everything outside Crossfit sucked.
 
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Lshap

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Jun 6, 2011
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I'm intrigued by the idea of doing a multi-day fast once every so often.
All the research supports the less-is-more approach to eating. Whether it's Intermittent Fasting or just reducing overall calories, your organs become healthier and you live longer. With so much literature over the decades about this or that diet dictating what we eat, it's possible the most important variable will turn out to be how much we eat.

Good for you if you can pull off a multi-day fast. I get as far as 15-16 hours between meals maybe once or twice a week. However, I don't over-eat and don't need lots of calories. Either approach is heading in the right direction.
 
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NotProkofievian

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All the research supports the less-is-more approach to eating. Whether it's Intermittent Fasting or just reducing overall calories, your organs become healthier and you live longer. With so much literature over the decades about this or that diet dictating what we eat, it's possible the most important variable will turn out to be how much we eat.

Good for you if you can pull off a multi-day fast. I get as far as 15-16 hours between meals maybe once or twice a week. However, I don't over-eat and don't need lots of calories. Either approach is heading in the right direction.

I'm just interested in it for the moment but haven't had time to really delve into the details. For the moment I'm cutting by counting calories, and 4 weeks in, it's almost exactly on schedule: losing about 80 grams per day (according to a best-fit line). Keeping protein high, cutting the calories from fats. The data is telling me that my maintenance is about 3100 given my current training load (which is not that much). When I come off I think I'll tread carefully though: first go up to 2800 for a week or so to see how that goes.

The whole spiel that Rhonda Patrick was going on about piqued my interest in the fasting though. It does make sense to me that a multi-day fast would do the thing that a 16 hour fast is doing to mice, though.
 

DAChampion

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Yep. The Tahini in the hummus I eat is a pretty major source of dietary fat for me at the moment. I kept carbs relatively high and stripped out a lot of fat. I get about 60g per day of which my hummus and pita snack represents about 20g.



I'm intrigued by the idea of doing a multi-day fast once every so often.

Just try it out and see what happens. I've done five to seven days several times, and once I did ten days.

In my experience, the hardest parts are:
- Genuine hunger in the first day;
- Low blood pressure in the first 2 or 3 days, be careful when standing up quickly;
- It's anti-social, as most social activities involve food;
 

NotProkofievian

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Just try it out and see what happens. I've done five to seven days several times, and once I did ten days.

In my experience, the hardest parts are:
- Genuine hunger in the first day;
- Low blood pressure in the first 2 or 3 days, be careful when standing up quickly;
- It's anti-social, as most social activities involve food;

Would there be anything to look out for if I did this after or during a prolonged period of caloric deficit? Like, what if I ended my 10 week cut with a 3 day fast?
 
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DAChampion

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Would there be anything to look out for if I did this after or during a prolonged period of caloric deficit? Like, what if I ended my 10 week cut with a 3 day fast?

So unfortunately, we don't have too many detailed fasting studies. Dr. Peter Attia, I don't know if you know of him but he's a research endocrinologist with a big following, said that one of the big questions for him is which duration of fasting will provide which benefits for which people. That's not known.

So I can't give you a precise answer, but I'll give you the best that I can.

I think that it would likely be good for you to end with a 3-day fast or even a 5-day fast. Though the research needs more follow-up, it does seem that among the benefits of fasting relative to continuous caloric deficit is that the fat that's metabolized is more likely to be organ fat. In your body you have subcutaneous fat, organ fat, and probably other kinds of fat. Subcutaneous fat is what is unfashionable, but it's probably metabolically neutral or close to it. Organ fat doesn't affect your aesthetics, but it's metabolically bad for you. It does seem that fat loss during fasting is preferentially organ fat, so that would be good for you. So combining the two might will allow you to preferentially target some organ fat at the end of your cut, in case you have some left.

A three-day fast was also shown by Valter Longo's research team to help rejuvenate the immune system.

It's also been shown to reduce the microbial load in your gut. So if you make sure to eat very healthy foods right after your fast, you'll be in a good position to improve your gut microflora. This is extremely early science, but I think that this means complex carbs, fermented foods, combined with an absence of added sugars, and possibly an absence of artificial sweeteners.
 

NotProkofievian

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So unfortunately, we don't have too many detailed fasting studies. Dr. Peter Attia, I don't know if you know of him but he's a research endocrinologist with a big following, said that one of the big questions for him is which duration of fasting will provide which benefits for which people. That's not known.

So I can't give you a precise answer, but I'll give you the best that I can.

I think that it would likely be good for you to end with a 3-day fast or even a 5-day fast. Though the research needs more follow-up, it does seem that among the benefits of fasting relative to continuous caloric deficit is that the fat that's metabolized is more likely to be organ fat. In your body you have subcutaneous fat, organ fat, and probably other kinds of fat. Subcutaneous fat is what is unfashionable, but it's probably metabolically neutral or close to it. Organ fat doesn't affect your aesthetics, but it's metabolically bad for you. It does seem that fat loss during fasting is preferentially organ fat, so that would be good for you. So combining the two might will allow you to preferentially target some organ fat at the end of your cut, in case you have some left.

A three-day fast was also shown by Valter Longo's research team to help rejuvenate the immune system.

It's also been shown to reduce the microbial load in your gut. So if you make sure to eat very healthy foods right after your fast, you'll be in a good position to improve your gut microflora. This is extremely early science, but I think that this means complex carbs, fermented foods, combined with an absence of added sugars, and possibly an absence of artificial sweeteners.

Does muscle waste during multiday fasts?
 

DAChampion

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Those counters aren't really precise. They estimate they overshoot calories by 20% already, but then they dont consider level of fitness, or how proficient you are at an exercise. My buddy and I can hop on the treadmill, same age, same height/weight, put it on the same speed and we will end up having burnt the same number of calories. Difference is he barely knows how to put one foot in front of the other and he confuses running with stomping. After 10 minutes, he can barely breath, while I can still hold a perfect conversation without grasping for air.
Yet, the machine has us both at the same caloric loss, which makes anything but sense.
It's very similar to the BMI and how it's extremely flawed as it doesnt consider body composition.

So..I'd be wary of those calorie counters on cardio machines.

That's fine, and in general, I don't believe in counting calories to better than 10% or 15% precision, for a lot of reasons which I've stated. Thus, I don't really care.

When I'm on a cardio machine, I pay more attention to the heart rate. Ideally, I'd like to be able to stay above 150 BPM as long as possible, and to be able to briefly brake 170, but that can be difficult.

Where the calorie counter might be more useful is that it's at least precise even if it's not more accurate. Thus, I know that if I break 750 calories on the elliptical, I had more intensity than the day when I reached 650 in the same amount of time, regardless of how many calories were actually burned.

If you want to believe James Cameron helped produce Game Changers in an effort to get people to eat more peas from his Saskatchewan company, you do you. I don't believe that. I think it's quite clear that we have a famous filmmaker who attached his name to a doc in order to help the doc secure funding and distribution. He supports the doc, because the doc supports plant based eating which he supports as an environmentalist. That's all there is to it.

But I guess when you can't attack the actual substance of the doc, you have to go after the motivations of it's producers, right?

First, I think that you're probably right about Cameron. He's a genuine environmentalist and has been for a long time. It's probably a passion project for him, similarly with the green peas. If Cameron only cared about making money he would probably invest in firearms manufacturers or something like that, that's possibly the best investment that an American can make, but he might want the green peas to be better developed as a food source. My impression is that a lot of angel investors like the idea of an investment being "cool".

However, there's been a lot of bullshit in the past several pages that I feel the need to point out. Among them:

Nate Diaz winning or losing to Connor McGregor provides no constraint on whether or not changes to their diets are universally good or bad. There are hundreds of variables involved, several of them are covariant, and a single fight counts as a small sample size. In general I don't think that we should obsess over the dietary practices of elite athletes. They are elite athletes, so they are superior genetically, superior in prior training, superior in ongoing training, often taking a lot of steroids, and finally, I'm confident that many of them lie when they describe their diets.

A better example might be that of Novak Djokovic a few years ago. He stopped consuming gluten and dairy (I think?) and his performance drastically improved. Not over a single fight against a single competitor, but over an extended period including dozens to hundreds of matches which took place in different days, different conditions, and against different opponents. But even that doesn't generalize: he may have just had a specific auto-immune response.
 
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DAChampion

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Does muscle waste during multiday fasts?

It hasn't been tested in elite athletes as far as I know, but in normal people, muscle doesn't waste.

What's been measured is that the catabolism of protein converges to 15 grams a day. That can be measured directly from urine. Note that the 15 grams is not necessarily muscle, it can also be loose skin, the blood vessels that feed decaying fat cells, etc. What's measured from urine are the waste products of any protein.

Physiologically, during a fast, insulin drops by a lot (I forget how much), and human growth hormone skyrockets, by up to ~2,000%. The former makes it easier for the body to catabolize fat. The latter makes it harder to catabolize lean tissue.

From this information I make a prediction, that the best way to lose muscle and crash one's metabolism is to consume ~1,500 calories/day made up entirely of simple carbs that are eaten in a lot of small portions spread evenly throughout the day. I'm curious to know if that's true, maybe we'll see it tested at some point.
 
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NotProkofievian

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It hasn't been tested in elite athletes as far as I know, but in normal people, muscle doesn't waste.

What's been measured is that the catabolism of protein converges to 15 grams a day. That can be measured directly from urine. Note that the 15 grams is not necessarily muscle, it can also be loose skin, the blood vessels that feed decaying fat cells, etc. What's measured from urine are the waste products of any protein.

Physiologically, during a fast, insulin drops by a lot (I forget how much), and human growth hormone skyrockets, by up to ~2,000%. The former makes it easier for the body to catabolize fat. The latter makes it harder to catabolize lean tissue.

From this information I make a prediction, that the best way to lose muscle and crash one's metabolism is to consume ~1,500 calories/day made up entirely of simple carbs that are eaten in a lot of small portions spread evenly throughout the day. I'm curious to know if that's true, maybe we'll see it tested at some point.

Thanks for the info, I think I'll give it a try.
 

Mrb1p

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Dec 10, 2011
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Does muscle waste during multiday fasts?
Obviously it does, but the level at which it does hasnt really been found yet, from what Ive read. My gut feeling is that its effective at keeping it, but not as effective as calorie counting.

I also remember reading that mice lost more weight and even fat on one-day fasts than on IF. (All fats, visceral, adipose, everything was accounted for but water and muscle.)

Theres very little research on actual fasting, the bulk of the literature is on IF and done on mice or on humans, but most of those seem to be too short.

To me, fasting is a lifestyle change and something you do to be healthy, its much more useful for those needing an endocrine system reset than someone looking to keep muscle on a diet. Recommended for general health, not so much for being yoked.
 

Edgy

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Nov 30, 2009
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You sure about that? Burning 700cal in the gym is no easy feat.
I eat like I burn 700 calories and I'm not gaining weight, gained 2.5lbs of muscle mass last month. So pretty sure I'm in the ballpark.

I do 15-20minues on the treadmill at 5-6min/km pace then an hour, hour fifteen of weights.

Days where I don't do the treadmill, it'll drop to 400-500 range.

With HIIT/cardio it isnt ?

He's 6'3, so you gotta think hes also heavier.
Not really, 180lbs.
 

Treb

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May 31, 2011
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I bet you haven’t even watched the movie :laugh:
Going by your explanations (even ignoring the other people), it is very misleading. You just don't see it that way because it fits what you want to be true.

EDIT: IMO, being vegan is a valid option, just not the only good one.
 

Mrb1p

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Dec 10, 2011
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Going by your explanations (even ignoring the other people), it is very misleading. You just don't see it that way because it fits what you want to be true.

EDIT: IMO, being vegan is a valid option, just not the only good one.


Its what everyone but one person in this thread believes..
 

DramaticGloveSave

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Going by your explanations (even ignoring the other people), it is very misleading. You just don't see it that way because it fits what you want to be true.

EDIT: IMO, being vegan is a valid option, just not the only good one.
This is an ironic statement. I'm actually the one who has changed my dietary habits based on the new information presented to me. I wish all these things weren't true, I enjoyed eating meat/dairy/eggs as much as the next person. Continuing to eat those foods is the easy thing to do because it requires no change.

But when it became clear to me that these foods were damaging to the planet, animals, and ones long term health, I changed my behavior and it was one of the best decisions I've made in life. I am not trying to tell other people what to eat, I understand people don't like being told what to do and need to figure things out for themselves, am simply trying to shine light on the real truth. I know it's hard to change, but for those willing to give it a try, you will not regret it.
 

waffledave

waffledave, from hf
Aug 22, 2004
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Very disappointed in myself. I was doing so well, starting to see real results and getting compliments. Felt great.

Then I went on vacation at the end of August. I came back to a true nightmare scenario at work, and now it's been 2 MONTHS I have no worked out at all. Just no time, no energy, no motivation. I feel awful, just totally worn down by the stress and grind of my job and a newborn at home. Thankfully, the project I am on at work should end by December so, there is light at the end of the tunnel.

I just hate that I let all this hard work come undone. I'm going to have to start over again with all my lifts and work my way back up. As far as cardio goes, I also need to start over completely as I doubt I can even run a 5k at this point. That's after running 10-12km 5 days a week. So disappointing.
 
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NotProkofievian

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Very disappointed in myself. I was doing so well, starting to see real results and getting compliments. Felt great.

Then I went on vacation at the end of August. I came back to a true nightmare scenario at work, and now it's been 2 MONTHS I have no worked out at all. Just no time, no energy, no motivation. I feel awful, just totally worn down by the stress and grind of my job and a newborn at home. Thankfully, the project I am on at work should end by December so, there is light at the end of the tunnel.

I just hate that I let all this hard work come undone. I'm going to have to start over again with all my lifts and work my way back up. As far as cardio goes, I also need to start over completely as I doubt I can even run a 5k at this point. That's after running 10-12km 5 days a week. So disappointing.

2 months isn't so bad. It'll come back quickly.
 
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