OT: Fitness and Nutrition IX

[Kriss E]

Diabetes rates among vegans is lower how the heck would there be an increase with lessened meat consumption? Heart disease and cancer rates would decrease as well. There is no downside other than people getting over it.

Because right now vegans are there by choice, which means they're being very cautious and conscious with what they're eating. Most guys who are careful with their nutrition, even animal eaters, have low diabetes so...crazy thought...maybe that's not the problem?
The guys who aren't and eating like crap making those diabetes rates go up, what the hell do you think they will eat if you eliminate meat? They're going to have a grilled tofu kale salad you think??
The increase in carbs intake is going to grow, the ''bad'' kind, immensely. It's not just cucumbers, broccoli and oranges that will have a boost in production.
If not diabetes, other issues will arise, as they have over the course of our entire history.

I do agree getting people to pay for the “real cost” of their food would encourage people to eat more plant foods. Dairy in fact is subsidized by the government thanks to the Dairy lobby which in Canada is unfortunately ridiculously strong. Makes zero sense.

It's not about encouraging to pay ''real cost'', it's about affordability. You want real change you need to make meat way more expensive and organic veggies/fruits cheaper.
Also you need to make this diet appeal to a wider range of the population. Vegans right now, I assume based on personal experience, are white young professionals in their late 20s-early 30s. Outside of that group, veganism isn't really talked about.
My family in Lebanon barely knows what that is..No shawarma..labneh..shish taouk...kebbe nayeh...Ah! There's no effin way they're stopping that.
Here in Hong Kong...pig/pork is huge. Actually, it's a tradition here, when you open a new business and want to bless it with good fortune, they bring in people to do the dragon dance where they throw lettuce/greens as it represents ''getting rich''..and they also do a full pig roast.
Peking duck is also a local staple.
The greeks with their lamb roast traditions.

As I said, the only way you can cut things down is by marking up cost. Make meat extremely expensive, that's the only chance you have at a significant decrease in production imo.

 

[ECWHSWI]

The bronze age collapse is fascinating, but also terrifying.

DGS is right however, we still have the time and ressources to reorganize our systems and infrastructure before resorting to eating our neighbors and violating their boys.

not the will though.

 

[NotProkofievian]

It's not about encouraging to pay ''real cost'', it's about affordability. You want real change you need to make meat way more expensive and organic veggies/fruits cheaper.
Also you need to make this diet appeal to a wider range of the population. Vegans right now, I assume based on personal experience, are white young professionals in their late 20s-early 30s. Outside of that group, veganism isn't really talked about.
My family in Lebanon barely knows what that is..No shawarma..labneh..shish taouk...kebbe nayeh...Ah! There's no effin way they're stopping that.
Here in Hong Kong...pig/pork is huge. Actually, it's a tradition here, when you open a new business and want to bless it with good fortune, they bring in people to do the dragon dance where they throw lettuce/greens as it represents ''getting rich''..and they also do a full pig roast.
Peking duck is also a local staple.
The greeks with their lamb roast traditions.

As I said, the only way you can cut things down is by marking up cost. Make meat extremely expensive, that's the only chance you have at a significant decrease in production imo.

It is, though. Meat is as cheap as it is because of the way we are legally allowed to raise the animals for harvest. If you, for instance, banned the use of antibiotics in meat production, that would be just about it for chicken and pork. Pasture raised chicken and pork would still be available, but it's 2 to 3 times as expensive. And that would just be one single law. You could have laws on hormones, space, labour, nitrogen/carbon.

If the only thing available in my stores was pasture raised animals, I doubt I would be vegan, but I would eat meat maybe once or twice per week. @Mrb1p , for instance, is far too poor and short to afford pasture raised chicken, and would lose all his gains.

...or would he? #gamebreakers

 

[Sorinth]

Diabetes rates among vegans is lower how the heck would there be an increase with lessened meat consumption? Heart disease and cancer rates would decrease as well. There is no downside other than people getting over it.

I do agree getting people to pay for the “real cost” of their food would encourage people to eat more plant foods. Dairy in fact is subsidized by the government thanks to the Dairy lobby which in Canada is unfortunately ridiculously strong. Makes zero sense.

The price of dairy in Canada dairy is actually inflated because of supply side management. So the idea that if only we paid the real cost things would be more expensive isn't at all accurate.

 

[Kriss E]

It is, though. Meat is as cheap as it is because of the way we are legally allowed to raise the animals for harvest. If you, for instance, banned the use of antibiotics in meat production, that would be just about it for chicken and pork. Pasture raised chicken and pork would still be available, but it's 2 to 3 times as expensive. And that would just be one single law. You could have laws on hormones, space, labour, nitrogen/carbon.

If the only thing available in my stores was pasture raised animals, I doubt I would be vegan, but I would eat meat maybe once or twice per week. @Mrb1p , for instance, is far too poor and short to afford pasture raised chicken, and would lose all his gains.

...or would he? #gamebreakers

Yes well, again, as you said, you'd still buy it. Point is, cost dictates what most people eat.

 

[angusyoung]

Here in the Netherlands there was recently a nitrogen pollution law passed which led to massive farmer protests. I don't know about you @angusyoung but I noticed the price of beef jump drastically. Kogelstuk is like 8 euros for 300 grams!

Anyways, anti-climate change policies can be used to reduce the demand for meat by pricing in their nitrogen and carbon. I really like Kogelstuk, but I don't like it ''26 euros per kilo.'' Factory farming makes meat artificially cheap. If people had to pay twice as much for their meat they'd switch to beans pretty ****ing quickly. Meat would become a status symbol.

Typical reaction in NL, do something and the consumers has to pay. Politics from all parties to justify spike increases and trying to do the green thing for the environment and then permit the F1 to return.
So far haven't seen prices jump at my FEBO.

 

[Lshap]

Also for anyone who still thinks I’m “biased” against anything not vegan, lab grown meat isn’t vegan but I absolutely support it (even if I wouldn’t eat it). So there’s goes that narrative.

I'd be interested to see how lab-grown meat affects the followers of veggie/vegan diets. Those who made the switch to protest cruelty to farmed animals or the impact on climate have nothing left to object to. Will they go back to eating meat if it's entirely man-made and leaves no agricultural impact?

 

[DAChampion]

I'd be interested to see how lab-grown meat affects the followers of veggie/vegan diets. Those who made the switch to protest cruelty to farmed animals or the impact on climate have nothing left to object to. Will they go back to eating meat if it's entirely man-made and leaves no agricultural impact?

My expectation of lab-grown meat is that corporations are going to tinker with it to try and make it cheaper and "better", and it will end up being worse. But it will ultimately win out even if it tastes like shit and even if it's less healthy, because "cheaper" is an unstoppable force in our society.

I first realized this when watching an interview with Gary Taubes. He predicted that corporations would engineer the lab-grown meat to have fewer saturated fatty acids. I don't know if that will happen, but they'll definitely do something like that.

Diabetes rates among vegans is lower how the heck would there be an increase with lessened meat consumption? Heart disease and cancer rates would decrease as well. There is no downside other than people getting over it.

We've already explained to you how correlation does not prove causation in this case. Do you actually not get it? Here, let me help you:

1) Veganism is a choice in our society. The fact that people make that choice means that they're different not just in what they eat, but in their general values. Those other differences, and the factors that cause those differences, could all be impacting them.

2) It is plausible that simply avoiding animal products is superior to the standard consumption of animal products. It doesn't follow that all animal products are bad.

3) If everybody became vegan, food manufacturers such as Kraft, Pizza Hut, etc would very rapidly figure out how to make a lot of disgusting foods for vegans and they would be everywhere. Right now, vegans are forced to avoid most vending machines and most restaurants. That helps them, but that would change within a few months if everybody became vegan.

 

[Mrb1p]

It is, though. Meat is as cheap as it is because of the way we are legally allowed to raise the animals for harvest. If you, for instance, banned the use of antibiotics in meat production, that would be just about it for chicken and pork. Pasture raised chicken and pork would still be available, but it's 2 to 3 times as expensive. And that would just be one single law. You could have laws on hormones, space, labour, nitrogen/carbon.

If the only thing available in my stores was pasture raised animals, I doubt I would be vegan, but I would eat meat maybe once or twice per week. @Mrb1p , for instance, is far too poor and short to afford pasture raised chicken, and would lose all his gains.

...or would he? #gamebreakers

Gamechanger part 3 will be all about me and the cannibal diet

 

[Kriss E]

3) If everybody became vegan, food manufacturers such as Kraft, Pizza Hut, etc would very rapidly figure out how to make a lot of disgusting foods for vegans and they would be everywhere. Right now, vegans are forced to avoid most vending machines and most restaurants. That helps them, but that would change within a few months if everybody became vegan.

Exactly, and with that, either the same health concerns would persist or new ones would develop.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

I'd be interested to see how lab-grown meat affects the followers of veggie/vegan diets. Those who made the switch to protest cruelty to farmed animals or the impact on climate have nothing left to object to. Will they go back to eating meat if it's entirely man-made and leaves no agricultural impact?

For myself, the only lab grown animal food I'd consider would be fish. My only issue with fish from a health perspective is all the contamination from heavy metals, estrogens, etc, which in "clean fish" (lab grown) would not be an issue.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

My expectation of lab-grown meat is that corporations are going to tinker with it to try and make it cheaper and "better", and it will end up being worse. But it will ultimately win out even if it tastes like **** and even if it's less healthy, because "cheaper" is an unstoppable force in our society.

I first realized this when watching an interview with Gary Taubes. He predicted that corporations would engineer the lab-grown meat to have fewer saturated fatty acids. I don't know if that will happen, but they'll definitely do something like that.


We've already explained to you how correlation does not prove causation in this case. Do you actually not get it? Here, let me help you:

1) Veganism is a choice in our society. The fact that people make that choice means that they're different not just in what they eat, but in their general values. Those other differences, and the factors that cause those differences, could all be impacting them.

2) It is plausible that simply avoiding animal products is superior to the standard consumption of animal products. It doesn't follow that all animal products are bad.

3) If everybody became vegan, food manufacturers such as Kraft, Pizza Hut, etc would very rapidly figure out how to make a lot of disgusting foods for vegans and they would be everywhere. Right now, vegans are forced to avoid most vending machines and most restaurants. That helps them, but that would change within a few months if everybody became vegan.

There absolutely is plenty of vegan junk food out there, Oreos, cola, etc... I just don't see this notion that everyone giving up meat would suddenly start stuffing their face with crap as realistic. Most people would just replace the meat with lab grown meat. People aren't going to just start eating cookies and cola for dinner...

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

Gamechanger part 3 will be all about me and the cannibal diet

Unfortunately the production will halt before completion after you attack and eat the sound guy.

 

[Mrb1p]

Unfortunately the production will halt before completion after you attack and eat the sound guy.

A mans gotta do what a mans gotta do

 

[Lshap]

For myself, the only lab grown animal food I'd consider would be fish. My only issue with fish from a health perspective is all the contamination from heavy metals, estrogens, etc, which in "clean fish" (lab grown) would not be an issue.

I have the same concern. I love fish and have skewed my diet towards more of it and less meat, but it's a challenge avoiding the toxins.

But which toxins, who to listen to, and what to believe? I had a naturopathic doctor tell me to avoid salmon and tuna in restaurants because they're loaded with certain toxins. So much for sushi. But other sources say salmon has low levels of mercury, making it safer. Good grief.

Obviously you can't go overboard trying to dodge everything. Nor would I want to. I just want to know that if I'm eating healthy, it really is healthy. On the other hand, when I'm eating a bacon and cheese pizza I can figure out the consequences for myself.

 

[NotProkofievian]

My expectation of lab-grown meat is that corporations are going to tinker with it to try and make it cheaper and "better", and it will end up being worse. But it will ultimately win out even if it tastes like **** and even if it's less healthy, because "cheaper" is an unstoppable force in our society.

I first realized this when watching an interview with Gary Taubes. He predicted that corporations would engineer the lab-grown meat to have fewer saturated fatty acids. I don't know if that will happen, but they'll definitely do something like that.

Cheaper is certainly a powerful motivator, but we are hedonistic creatures: we experience and seek pleasure. And we're also lazy as f***. There is a multi-billion dollar industry called advertising which abuses these traits of ours and turns it against us in order to override our rational faculties, and manipulate us into consuming the products that large corporations want us to consume.

If cheaper were unstoppable, everyone would be eating rice and beans. It needs to be so much more expensive that people seriously need to think about it. Meat is cheap enough that people don't have to think. It's been priced into their ''loose change'' price range, so people don't even think about the amount they're paying for someone to cut up the chicken, which you can easily do in about 5 minutes. This is not rational consumption behaviour.

 

[Treb]

There absolutely is plenty of vegan junk food out there, Oreos, cola, etc... I just don't see this notion that everyone giving up meat would suddenly start stuffing their face with crap as realistic. Most people would just replace the meat with lab grown meat. People aren't going to just start eating cookies and cola for dinner...

But your point is that unhealthy people would be healthier.
The unhealthy would keep eating unhealthy food even if they turn vegan.
They would eat a bunch of fried beyond meat/tofu with noodles full of carbs and not really be healthier.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

But your point is that unhealthy people would be healthier.
The unhealthy would keep eating unhealthy food even if they turn vegan.
They would eat a bunch of fried beyond meat/tofu with noodles full of carbs and not really be healthier.

The original point, which was made by KrissE, was that folks would be UNhealthier if everyone switched to Vegan. I disputed that point. Get your facts straight bud.

 

[NotProkofievian]

I notice these irrational consumption behaviours in myself: I have complained about dutch tomatoes in this thread. But there are good tomatoes in late summer. I could very easily look up a farmer, buy 20-30 kilos of tomatoes when they're at their ripest, and can them myself. It would be a fun weekend project, and I would have good quality tomatoes year-round for a fraction of the price that I pay for the shitty canned tomatoes in the store.

The plastic bag tax is one that took me an embarrassing amount of time to catch on to. I still get caught every once and a while without a reusable shopping bag.

Dried beans vs canned beans. I even buy pre-sliced cheese. The slices are so even and perfect, you can taste the difference in slice quality, I swear!

 

[Treb]

The original point, which was made by KrissE, was that folks would be UNhealthier if everyone switched to Vegan. I disputed that point. Get your facts straight bud.

You said diabetes, heart disease and cancer would decrease if we all switched to veganism. Get your facts straight bud.

 

[DAChampion]

You said diabetes, heart disease and cancer would decrease if we all switched to veganism. Get your facts straight bud.

It seems unlikely that both of heart disease and cancer would decrease.

Think about it

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

You said diabetes, heart disease and cancer would decrease if we all switched to veganism. Get your facts straight bud.

The numbers would suggest that yes, but I'm not the one here making the point. How about you talk to KrissE about his statement?

 

[Treb]

The numbers would suggest that yes, but I'm not the one here making the point. How about you talk to KrissE about his statement?

His statement is not wrong if his premise happens. If people eats lots and lots of carbs, it won't be good for them.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

His statement is not wrong if his premise happens. If people eats lots and lots of carbs, it won't be good for them.

Wrong on three counts, in two sentences. Impressive.

 

[DAChampion]

His statement is not wrong if his premise happens. If people eats lots and lots of carbs, it won't be good for them.

It depends, some societies have actually done well with high-carb diets. It's the historic norm in most of East Asia, where people ate a lot of white rice, not brown rice, and certainly not cauliflower rice. My thinking, which is not proven, is that the body's ability to handle carbs is impaired once people eat too much sugar, which includes fructose as well as glucose.

Those same East Asian societies still have high-carb diets today, and their rates of obesity and diabetes are skyrocketing.