Firing Dubas was an excuse, the real problem is Shanny.

[Ciao]

The narrative that Brendan Shanahan is at fault for something or other is hilarious.

The best the Leafs could do in the decade before his arrival was scratch and claw for "the eighth and final playoff spot," if even that much. I'm so glad not to hear that phrase in the past ten years!

When Shanahan arrived, the Leafs were a mess from top-to-bottom, right from ownership through management, coaching, the roster, scouting and player development. There was a lot to turn around. Brian Burke had been dismissed, leaving Dave Nonis in charge. Randy Carlyle's coaching tenure came to an end, leaving the Leafs in the capable hands of Peter Horachuk who noted that the Give-a-Shit Meter wasn't getting much of a reading.

At least Shanahan had the balls to make some firm decisions for the long-term good of the franchise and very quickly turned things around.

Now the Leafs have made the playoffs for seven straight seasons -- after having qualified only once before since the end of the lockout before Shanahan's arrival. It's pretty hard to win the Stanley Cup if you don't even qualify for the post-season, and at the very least Shanahan has lead the Leafs with enough stability and success to do that year after year.

There's of course still more to do but I don't see any reason to think that any other team president would do his job any better. He's not the General Manager. He's not the coach. He's not one one of the players. What he has done is create a structure within which the General Manager, the coaching staff, the players and the entire system supporting them can succeed.

I think the Leafs were wise to hire Shanahan, and if they stay the course they will succeed even in the playoffs too.

 

[Stephen]

Dubas was fired for trying to make a move to steal Shanahan's job and authority, independent of any on ice performance.

 

[Northernguy10]

Hiring an ex Red Wing to get us out of our 50+ year cup drought isn't panning out. Not surprising.

The Shanascam.

I love the Toronto Maple Leafs. I hate MLSE. No fan base deserves the torture that Leaf fans have had to endure for the last five decades. It's disgraceful.

Run by complete idiots in basically every key position. Joke.

I concur 100%... I've been a fan since 1957 and I've said the same for the last 50 years or so... Hate the ownership/ board etc... always will be a fan of the team. You used exactly the right word.. 'disgraceful'

 

[Ciao]

If you're a lifelong fan of the Leafs then you might know this: the Leafs current stretch of seven consecutive playoff appearances is among their best and most consistent showings ever.

From 1930-45 the Leafs made the playoffs fifteen straight times and won the Stanley Cup three times in that stretch. Then they missed the playoffs.

From 1958-67 the Leafs made the playoffs nine straight times and won the Stanley Cup four times in that stretch. That was their most successful era ever.

From 1973-81 the Leafs made the playoffs eight straight times and never won a Stanley Cup. They never reached a Stanley Cup final. The reached the semi-final only once in that time, against the 1978 Montreal Canadiens. That post-expansion era was the last time the Leafs made the playoffs as many as seven times in a row, and it was without much success.

From 2004-12 the Leafs set a franchise record seven straight seasons missing the playoffs. Then in 2013 they lost in the first round to Boston and from 2013-16 missed the playoffs three more times. Ten times they missed the playoffs in 11 post-lockout, salary-cap seasons.

Leafs Nation should appreciate and enjoy the consistency of the fourth-longest playoff streak in franchise history, and the first actual consistent performance from one season to the next outside of a six- or eight-team league with no amateur entry draft, or a helter-skelter post-expansion era in which as many as 16 of 21 teams all made the playoffs.

The level of play in the National Hockey League is better than it's ever been, and the Leafs are better than they've been in a long, long time. If the Leafs can continue to be consistently competitive in the regular season and make the playoffs year after year, their further success is more than likely to follow.

Or would you rather return to the constant churning of managers and coaches as a Band-Aid alternative to a long-term plan?

 

[mikeyz]

If you're a lifelong fan of the Leafs then you might know this: the Leafs current stretch of seven consecutive playoff appearances is among their best and most consistent showings ever.

From 1930-45 the Leafs made the playoffs fifteen straight times and won the Stanley Cup three times in that stretch. Then they missed the playoffs.

From 1958-67 the Leafs made the playoffs nine straight times and won the Stanley Cup four times in that stretch. That was their most successful era ever.

From 1973-81 the Leafs made the playoffs eight straight times and never won a Stanley Cup. They never reached a Stanley Cup final. The reached the semi-final only once in that time, against the 1978 Montreal Canadiens. That post-expansion era was the last time the Leafs made the playoffs as many as seven times in a row, and it was without much success.

From 2004-12 the Leafs set a franchise record seven straight seasons missing the playoffs. Then in 2013 they lost in the first round to Boston and from 2013-16 missed the playoffs three more times. Ten times they missed the playoffs in 11 post-lockout, salary-cap seasons.

Leafs Nation should appreciate and enjoy the consistency of the fourth-longest playoff streak in franchise history, and the first actual consistent performance from one season to the next outside of a six- or eight-team league with no amateur entry draft, or a helter-skelter post-expansion era in which as many as 16 of 21 teams all made the playoffs.

The level of play in the National Hockey League is better than it's ever been, and the Leafs are better than they've been in a long, long time. If the Leafs can continue to be consistently competitive in the regular season and make the playoffs year after year, their further success is more than likely to follow.

Or would you rather return to the constant churning of managers and coaches as a Band-Aid alternative to a long-term plan?

Okay. Now tell me how many playoff rounds they’ve won in the last 7 years

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

If you're a lifelong fan of the Leafs then you might know this: the Leafs current stretch of seven consecutive playoff appearances is among their best and most consistent showings ever.

From 1930-45 the Leafs made the playoffs fifteen straight times and won the Stanley Cup three times in that stretch. Then they missed the playoffs.

From 1958-67 the Leafs made the playoffs nine straight times and won the Stanley Cup four times in that stretch. That was their most successful era ever.

From 1973-81 the Leafs made the playoffs eight straight times and never won a Stanley Cup. They never reached a Stanley Cup final. The reached the semi-final only once in that time, against the 1978 Montreal Canadiens. That post-expansion era was the last time the Leafs made the playoffs as many as seven times in a row, and it was without much success.

From 2004-12 the Leafs set a franchise record seven straight seasons missing the playoffs. Then in 2013 they lost in the first round to Boston and from 2013-16 missed the playoffs three more times. Ten times they missed the playoffs in 11 post-lockout, salary-cap seasons.

Leafs Nation should appreciate and enjoy the consistency of the fourth-longest playoff streak in franchise history, and the first actual consistent performance from one season to the next outside of a six- or eight-team league with no amateur entry draft, or a helter-skelter post-expansion era in which as many as 16 of 21 teams all made the playoffs.

The level of play in the National Hockey League is better than it's ever been, and the Leafs are better than they've been in a long, long time. If the Leafs can continue to be consistently competitive in the regular season and make the playoffs year after year, their further success is more than likely to follow.

Or would you rather return to the constant churning of managers and coaches as a Band-Aid alternative to a long-term plan?

So what you're saying is we should be thankful for what we have.

Because it's better than what we had. Meanwhile ignoring the fact it's still not good enough. All the Leafs gotta do is be better than those loser teams from years ago and fans should be happy.

I wish my standards were that low.

 

[Ciao]

Okay. Now tell me how many playoff rounds they’ve won in the last 7 years

So what you're saying is we should be thankful for what we have.

Because it's better than what we had. Meanwhile ignoring the fact it's still not good enough. All the Leafs gotta do is be better than those loser teams from years ago and fans should be happy.

I wish my standards were that low.

John Wooden won his first NCAA Basketball championship in his 16th season with UCLA. That was the first of ten championships, which is still the record for the NCAA.

That only happened because UCLA was committed to the process. They were winners because they stuck with a long-term plan, even when the immediate results weren't there for a very long time.

I don't mind waiting if the Leafs are competitive and are building in the right direction. That gives them the best chances of success.

In many fields, it takes a long time to be an overnight success

On the other hand, the Leafs could clean house by firing Shanahan, Treliving and Keefe, and start fresh with another management group until they haven't won a Stanley Cup in the next five years, and then fire them too. Rinse and repeat.

I would rather they stick with the plan they're on, keep knocking on the door and going in the direction they've taken. Every year they make the playoffs is one more chance to win the Stanley Cup championship. It's a brutal, unpredictable tournament, and seriously any playoff team can win.

 

[centipede2233]

You know what’s happens when a parent babies their children, giving them everything and the moon never having to work for anything, they want more. They become entitled, they don’t want to work hard and just do enough to get by. Doesn’t that sound eerily familiar to leaf’s fans…

 

[Ciao]

Parenting is one example of leadership.

My wife and I raised our own family of seven children, all successful adults now: engineers, managers, teachers, high-level bureaucrats. Eight university degrees and one college diploma between the seven of them.

Parents engender success by nurturing their childrens' strengths, and setting clear expectations on behaviours. It doesn't help to place your hands on your hips and shout "You must be successful!" without committing to a process of finding how you could become more successful.

Most things in life are that way. How you approach a small task or a long-term goal will drive the outcome. The only place where "success" precedes "work" is in the dictionary.

I think the Leafs are working towards success in the right way.

If they aren't doing that, then they should be fired.

 

[francis246]

I agree that ability to manage the people is important, but there are thousands of exceptional managers outside of hockey with proven track records with a ton of experience running large budgets and staff that could put the right hockey people in place and manage them, but teams don't do that. They put hockey people in charge and turn them over if the results aren't there...
Dubas might be good with the people but I seriously doubt that he won't be treated the same as all GM's and judged mostly by his results...

For sure, I’m just talking about Owners banking on his potential right now as opposed to his actual results. I think they feel because he’s still young he has time to improve his on ice results. They probably think he can evolve. Which is a fair assumption

 

[francis246]

I agree that ability to manage the people is important, but there are thousands of exceptional managers outside of hockey with proven track records with a ton of experience running large budgets and staff that could put the right hockey people in place and manage them, but teams don't do that. They put hockey people in charge and turn them over if the results aren't there...
Dubas might be good with the people but I seriously doubt that he won't be treated the same as all GM's and judged mostly by his results...

And I mean not every team has a hockey person up top as president. It’s really only the major clubs/original six when you look at it. Plus it’s really a new concept within the last 6/7 years to have a hockey guy as the president of hockey ops. Hell Toronto had Richard Peddie as president for a while and he wasn’t a hockey guy.

 

[Jojalu]

The problem with Dubas is that he thought he was the smartest guy in the room and could reinvent how a team is structured .
The problem with Shanny and ownership is they bought into his nonsense and allowed him to send the team to far down a fools road.

The problem with your thesis is that all people who have new, creative ideas tend to end up being revolitionary leaders. After failing multiple times. Thinking outside the box has what has made industrial and business titans and no progress would be made if everyone just followed the status quo.

The difference that makes thise that succeed and fail is simply the acceptance that failure is going to be part of the journey.

He is gone. Not sure why this debate still rages on. He didn't bring the playoff success any fan wanted, but he certainly wasn't the tirefire some claim he was.

While he was here, the Leafs were a lock to make the playoffs, and sometimes favourites. That hasn't happened a lot in the Leafs history.

 

[DarkKnight]

The title of this thread is annoying.

 

[Racer88]

The problem with your thesis is that all people who have new, creative ideas tend to end up being revolitionary leaders. After failing multiple times. Thinking outside the box has what has made industrial and business titans and no progress would be made if everyone just followed the status quo.

The difference that makes thise that succeed and fail is simply the acceptance that failure is going to be part of the journey.

He is gone. Not sure why this debate still rages on. He didn't bring the playoff success any fan wanted, but he certainly wasn't the tirefire some claim he was.

While he was here, the Leafs were a lock to make the playoffs, and sometimes favourites. That hasn't happened a lot in the Leafs history.

Fundamentally I agree with you but positive change usually comes in incrimental changes not totally rewriting the book all at once.
I think the reason the Dubas debate rages on is that we are still feeling the effects of his tenure and may not see the light of day until the debacle of the Tavares experiment is over

 

[egelband]

It's so clear. He wants a puppet and he got it.

The way I understand it, the president sets the strategy, the overall course. And the gm executes. I suspect the gm has some autonomy but I'd think all the big decisions runthrough shanahan. So it's totally fair to hold the president accountable.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Whether you believe it's Shanahan or not, one thing is clear: he is the one consistent person that's been here the whole time since the rebuild. I've always thought he has more to do with the team than they say publicly. Why would both Babcock and Keefe neuter their tough guys and play a seemingly intentional non-physical style of hockey consistently under 3 or 4 different GMs now? Again, only one guy was there through it all.

 

[francis246]

The narrative that Brendan Shanahan is at fault for something or other is hilarious.

The best the Leafs could do in the decade before his arrival was scratch and claw for "the eighth and final playoff spot," if even that much. I'm so glad not to hear that phrase in the past ten years!

When Shanahan arrived, the Leafs were a mess from top-to-bottom, right from ownership through management, coaching, the roster, scouting and player development. There was a lot to turn around. Brian Burke had been dismissed, leaving Dave Nonis in charge. Randy Carlyle's coaching tenure came to an end, leaving the Leafs in the capable hands of Peter Horachuk who noted that the Give-a-Shit Meter wasn't getting much of a reading.

At least Shanahan had the balls to make some firm decisions for the long-term good of the franchise and very quickly turned things around.

Now the Leafs have made the playoffs for seven straight seasons -- after having qualified only once before since the end of the lockout before Shanahan's arrival. It's pretty hard to win the Stanley Cup if you don't even qualify for the post-season, and at the very least Shanahan has lead the Leafs with enough stability and success to do that year after year.

There's of course still more to do but I don't see any reason to think that any other team president would do his job any better. He's not the General Manager. He's not the coach. He's not one one of the players. What he has done is create a structure within which the General Manager, the coaching staff, the players and the entire system supporting them can succeed.

I think the Leafs were wise to hire Shanahan, and if they stay the course they will succeed even in the playoffs too.

I credit more of that to Tim Lieweke than I do Shanahan tbh.

 

[Al14]

Shanahan doesn’t make the major decisions, the board does. I started, built up, and have owned a small/mid size corporation for 30 years plus, and trust me on this, no decision of consequence gets made without discussions or without the approval of the board of MLSE.

Decisions of consequence would entail yearly budgets and plans, contracts of significance, major personnel changes, legal matters and more.

Shanahan likely presents a plan to the board of MLSE at minimum yearly. He likely meets with them quarterly to update the board members.

If you think Shanahan hired Dubas without going to the board and having to present his case for his recommendation to do so, then I would politely suggest that you don’t understand basic corporate governance.

Shanahan would have gone in front of the board of MLSE and as President of the Leafs, made a presentation of what he believed should be done and asked for board approval to do so. He would have been asked to cost out the Dubas contract and been questioned on his rationale for his recommendation as well as any other alternative options and why his recommendation was better.

If the board disagreed, they likely would have told him to examine other options and re-present.

As an executive, go to the board too many times and present something they don’t agree with you on, and you likely get replaced at some point. Also, go to the board and make presentations and representations that don’t materialize and you eventually lose the board’s confidence and again, you likely get replaced.

Shanahan is the President, he isn’t the board, or the ownership group.

Decisions of consequence are recommended by Shanahan and approved by the board.

Yes, I know how a corporation works. I was the CEO/CFO of my business back in the 90's. I held board meetings monthly, and at times, on a weekly basis when needed. I listened to my fellow executives/shareholders and made decisions as the top executive.

I believe that Shanahan has a certain level of autonomy to make decisions. I agree that he has to go before the MLSE board of directors to get their stamp of approval for major moves.

As far as Dubas goes, I think the BoD likely let Shanahan to hire him as an AGM without prior approval. Same with Hunter. The BoD likely rubber stamped Shanahan's choice to promote Dubas or Hunter to the GM position. Lamorello was likely let go because Shanahan couldn't control him as much as he felt he needed to.

If the lack of playoff success under Shanahan has the approval of the MLSE BoD, then they are a bunch of morons. They can't be listening to us the fans, or the media, to allow this charade under Shanahan to continue.

The BoD must have completely missed our Leafs being ousted from the playoffs by a much weaker Habs team. They must have been kept in the dark by what happend when our Leafs failed to make the playoffs by losing to the CBJ in the play-in series.

I truly believe that the hiring of Treliving was completely an MLSE BoD decision. I think the BoD forced this on Shanahan because of the connection between certain BoD members and the Treliving family.

If the MLSE BoD manages Shanahan closely, how is that his poor choices have been allowed to continue this long? The window for our Leafs to win a Stanley Cup is now starting to close IMHO.

Our Leafs have too many holes on the team that are not being addressed properly, and in a timely manner. Our Leafs under Shanahan are just doing the same things over and over and expecting better results. It's getting worse not better as seen by the last few games with our Leafs.

Keefe should have been fired after losing to the Habs and CBJ. If Shanhan is protecting Keefe with the MLSE BoD, then the BoD are morons for not firing Shanahan already.

I have maintained in other posts on here that our Leafs lack of playoff success is due the stench from the MLSE BoD on down. Our core 4 players are overpaid and underperforming. How can the MLSE BoD allow this to continue ad nausium?

Shanahan KNOWS what it takes to win a Stanley Cup. He has never attempted to build a team that played like he did, along with his Detroit teammates. WHY?

I can only hope that our Leafs turn this current funk around, make the playoffs, and prove to me, and Leafs Nation, that they are not all frauds that they have been thus far for 7 seasons.

Rant over.

 

[WTFMAN99]

I can't believe people are still talking about Dubas, even more surprised they're still making excuses for him.

He was the GM of a team that largely underperformed and he was fired - surprise surprise, sports is a results oriented business and you could have made the case they could have done it 1-2 years sooner.

 

[SmoggyTwinkles]

It's so clear. He wants a puppet and he got it.

Dubas "yeah so we sort of agreed on a new contract but I'm asking for more now and I also want a private jet for myself"

Shanny "there's the door"

 

[Tie Domi Esquire]

Dubas was fired for trying to make a move to steal Shanahan's job and authority, independent of any on ice performance.

Yup. He wanted complete hockey autonomy and the same salary as Shanahan. Why would MLSE pay Shanahan so much to handle the business side of the Leafs, if Dubas ran the on-ice? What makes it worse is that Dubas was Shanahan’s pet project.

One of the biggest tells on this situation is that Shanahan said he wanted to re-sign Dubas but something changed. I guess one round gets you lifetime employment in this city.

 

[SmoggyTwinkles]

Yes, I know how a corporation works. I was the CEO/CFO of my business back in the 90's. I held board meetings monthly, and at times, on a weekly basis when needed. I listened to my fellow executives/shareholders and made decisions as the top executive.

I believe that Shanahan has a certain level of autonomy to make decisions. I agree that he has to go before the MLSE board of directors to get their stamp of approval for major moves.

As far as Dubas goes, I think the BoD likely let Shanahan to hire him as an AGM without prior approval. Same with Hunter. The BoD likely rubber stamped Shanahan's choice to promote Dubas or Hunter to the GM position. Lamorello was likely let go because Shanahan couldn't control him as much as he felt he needed to.

If the lack of playoff success under Shanahan has the approval of the MLSE BoD, then they are a bunch of morons. They can't be listening to us the fans, or the media, to allow this charade under Shanahan to continue.

The BoD must have completely missed our Leafs being ousted from the playoffs by a much weaker Habs team. They must have been kept in the dark by what happend when our Leafs failed to make the playoffs by losing to the CBJ in the play-in series.

I truly believe that the hiring of Treliving was completely an MLSE BoD decision. I think the BoD forced this on Shanahan because of the connection between certain BoD members and the Treliving family.

If the MLSE BoD manages Shanahan closely, how is that his poor choices have been allowed to continue this long? The window for our Leafs to win a Stanley Cup is now starting to close IMHO.

Our Leafs have too many holes on the team that are not being addressed properly, and in a timely manner. Our Leafs under Shanahan are just doing the same things over and over and expecting better results. It's getting worse not better as seen by the last few games with our Leafs.

Keefe should have been fired after losing to the Habs and CBJ. If Shanhan is protecting Keefe with the MLSE BoD, then the BoD are morons for not firing Shanahan already.

I have maintained in other posts on here that our Leafs lack of playoff success is due the stench from the MLSE BoD on down. Our core 4 players are overpaid and underperforming. How can the MLSE BoD allow this to continue ad nausium?

Shanahan KNOWS what it takes to win a Stanley Cup. He has never attempted to build a team that played like he did, along with his Detroit teammates. WHY?

I can only hope that our Leafs turn this current funk around, make the playoffs, and prove to me, and Leafs Nation, that they are not all frauds that they have been thus far for 7 seasons.

Rant over.

Let's remember how Shanny came in. He quite literally watched and observed and soaked in an absolute loser of a team and organization for a year, then fired the shit out of everyone.

He's not deaf blind or dumb. The shit will hit the fan and we won't even see it coming.

I really like Shanny but maybe I'm an idiot. Let's see what happens next, maybe if nothing happens I might start to sour on him, but I think he's a cool calculated guy who can see exactly what's going on and will do something about it.

 

[SmoggyTwinkles]

The title of this thread is annoying.

Yeah.

He wasn't even fired correct?

I don't even know what day it is so I could be wrong.

 

[Ciao]

I credit more of that to Tim Lieweke than I do Shanahan tbh.

But for the premature planning of the parade route, I thought Tim Leiweke did a pretty good job as the head of MLSE.

His major accomplishments were to hire Shanahan and Ujiri to lead the Leafs and Raptors respectively, and nearly ten years later they are both still on the job.

However, two things: first, Leiweke had a completely different role from Shanahan's -- he was the head of the holding company, and Shanahan is head of the Leafs; and second, Leiweke no longer works here -- so who did what ten or twelve years ago isn't really much of a consideration on who's doing what now.

That said, I would agree that Leiweke was instrumental in turning both franchises around.

If only he hadn't planned the parade!

 

[Ciao]

Yes, I know how a corporation works. I was the CEO/CFO of my business back in the 90's. I held board meetings monthly, and at times, on a weekly basis when needed. I listened to my fellow executives/shareholders and made decisions as the top executive.

I believe that Shanahan has a certain level of autonomy to make decisions. I agree that he has to go before the MLSE board of directors to get their stamp of approval for major moves.

As far as Dubas goes, I think the BoD likely let Shanahan to hire him as an AGM without prior approval. Same with Hunter. The BoD likely rubber stamped Shanahan's choice to promote Dubas or Hunter to the GM position. Lamorello was likely let go because Shanahan couldn't control him as much as he felt he needed to.

If the lack of playoff success under Shanahan has the approval of the MLSE BoD, then they are a bunch of morons. They can't be listening to us the fans, or the media, to allow this charade under Shanahan to continue.

The BoD must have completely missed our Leafs being ousted from the playoffs by a much weaker Habs team. They must have been kept in the dark by what happend when our Leafs failed to make the playoffs by losing to the CBJ in the play-in series.

I truly believe that the hiring of Treliving was completely an MLSE BoD decision. I think the BoD forced this on Shanahan because of the connection between certain BoD members and the Treliving family.

If the MLSE BoD manages Shanahan closely, how is that his poor choices have been allowed to continue this long? The window for our Leafs to win a Stanley Cup is now starting to close IMHO.

Our Leafs have too many holes on the team that are not being addressed properly, and in a timely manner. Our Leafs under Shanahan are just doing the same things over and over and expecting better results. It's getting worse not better as seen by the last few games with our Leafs.

Keefe should have been fired after losing to the Habs and CBJ. If Shanhan is protecting Keefe with the MLSE BoD, then the BoD are morons for not firing Shanahan already.

I have maintained in other posts on here that our Leafs lack of playoff success is due the stench from the MLSE BoD on down. Our core 4 players are overpaid and underperforming. How can the MLSE BoD allow this to continue ad nausium?

Shanahan KNOWS what it takes to win a Stanley Cup. He has never attempted to build a team that played like he did, along with his Detroit teammates. WHY?

I can only hope that our Leafs turn this current funk around, make the playoffs, and prove to me, and Leafs Nation, that they are not all frauds that they have been thus far for 7 seasons.

Rant over.

Unless you have some very well connected inside information -- which perhaps you do have -- I think you have a very active imagination.

I'm a trial lawyer and evaluate facts based on evidence. I understand your opinions on who decided what and for which reasons, but without any supporting evidence they are just suppositions that are not likely to be true.

Opinions not based on facts have no value at all.