Firing Dubas was an excuse, the real problem is Shanny.

[All Mod Cons]

I think he’s learned on the job and has change his outlook on what a team needs to contend. He tried to make some of those changes but the mistakes he made early in his tenor were still haunting him.

Agreed. I said that all along. Too much damage in too short a period of time and he couldn't recover from it. Once he learned what every single hockey fan knows, it was way too late.

 

[TonsofPuppies]

Does anybody spreading this crap remember what it was like before Shanahan? Are any of you even old enough to? Jeez.

This is such a loser mentality. The seasons under previous regimes were failures, but so have the seasons under Shanahan. We have just as many cup wins under Shanny as under the previous regimes. When Shanny was brought in, he stated that one of his goals was to bring respectability back to one of the league's most historic franchises. Do you think the Leafs are anymore respected now than they were in 2015?

He also explicitly stated that he wants to rid the organization of lazy, entitled players who give "half efforts". Mission failed in that regard, lmao.

 

[Al14]

The NHL (Gary Bettman) recommended Shanahan to the MLSE Board

Yep, the NHL wanted Shanahan in control of our Leafs so he could make our team competitive, but NOT competitive enough to win anything much in the playoffs.

If Shanahan really wanted to win as POHO, why would he hire Dubas with NO NHL experience as a GM? He hired him because he wanted to be able to control him. He knew that he wouldn't be able to control Hunter as easily as his GM.

Shanahan allowed Dubas to hand out inflated deals to Matthews, Marner, Nylander, and yes, even Tavares. This meant that our Leafs would have cap problems and be unable to build a competent complement of support players, including better Ds and goalies.

Tavares should have been offered a take it or leave deal at $10M tops. Sure, he could score goals, however his poor skating would hold him back, especially as he ages. He also proved nothing as Captain of the NYI.

Matthews at $10M with Marner at $8M tops, made more sense IMHO. Nylander should have been traded for a D-man when he held out. Nylander at $5.5-6M should have been his ceiling.

None of our core 4 had proven anything when they were signed to their inflated deals. And now, they still haven't proven they can consistently beat lesser talented teams !!!

Shanahan also allowed Dubas to hire a coach with NO NHL experience. That was okay till he got out-coached in the playoffs especially against the Habs, and the play-in series against the CBJ. To this day, Keefe continues to fail when it matters the most. Great regular season stats followed by playoff exits is what we can expect from Keefe !!!

I don't think our Leafs are going anywhere fast with Shanahan in charge. Please prove me WRONG MLSE, Shanahan, Treliving, and our OVERPAID core 4 !!! I dare you to find Stanley Cup success with the current state of our Leafs !!!

JMHO.

 

[egd27]

Requires some interpretation https://www.reddit.com/r/leafs/s/uUbsDyBijl

IMO in requires much more than "some" interpretation

 

[Buds17]

This is such a loser mentality. The seasons under previous regimes were failures, but so have the seasons under Shanahan. We have just as many cup wins under Shanny as under the previous regimes. When Shanny was brought in, he stated that one of his goals was to bring respectability back to one of the league's most historic franchises. Do you think the Leafs are anymore respected now than they were in 2015?

He also explicitly stated that he wants to rid the organization of lazy, entitled players who give "half efforts". Mission failed in that regard, lmao.

Toronto Maple Leafs 2005/2006-2011/2012; 2013/2014-2015/2016 (I'm aware that Shanahan was hired in the midst of this period).

Yes, the current Leafs have underwhelmed. Compared to the dark days of the aforementioned periods of time though...

 

[mjd1001]

The leafs are, and have been a 'good' team. Good enough to excel in the regular season for the most part. Good enough to make the playoffs. Not good enough to have a ton of playoff sucess.

The reason they are good enough to make the playoffs and the reason they are good enough to not advance are one in the same: They have a handful of great players that they pay top dollar for, not leaving much for the rest of the roster.

Whos fault is that? I think its an organizational decision. What that primarily Dubas? Shanahan? Come from above them? Did everyone sit in a room and they made sure all those who sat in that room agreed with it? Not sure. But you have an above average-to-good team here that hasn't been great enough to win it all and I think the decision to have the team set up this way was by more than one single person.

 

[Darch]

I think the biggest problem is that there are 31 other teams trying to win the same trophy.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Hiring Dubas was a big mistake. Some said it at the time and others waited for the results to realise it was a crippling error. Dubas is an intelligent guy, works hard, and talks a great game, and I get why Shanny was impressed, but his lack of experience was a glaring hole in his resume. MLSE should not have hired him to negotiate the core‘s contracts.

Shanny has not atoned for that mistake, in fact, he’s made it worse and (without getting into all the cutesy stuff he’s done), he’s to blame.

To me it wasn't just the inexperience that did them in. It was the "I am smarter than the hockey old guard" that sunk this thing. They both (more so Shanny) thought they could reinvent the game with Nu-Hockey and a bunch of Engvall's and Kerfoot's in the playoffs trying to bypass the obvious, which is that the NHL has 2 different styles of play. Playoff hockey, no matter how badly you wish it to be a skilled exercise, is never going to be just about skill. This is where they failed along with the kumbaya attitude towards Marner and Matthews when it came to contracts that messed up our salary structure.

I actually think Dubas would have moved out one of the 4 this summer but Shanny was still steadfast IMO that we keep trying this insanity and managed to find a GM who would go along with it.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

The problem with Dubas is that he thought he was the smartest guy in the room and could reinvent how a team is structured .
The problem with Shanny and ownership is they bought into his nonsense and allowed him to send the team to far down a fools road.

Even if you grant them both a mulligan for trying to win with a top heavy salary structure...why not change course when you realized it wasn't working? I keep hearing about the cap being stagnant and all...but at the same time...you could use that as the excuse to deviate from your plan and say that it might have worked EXCEPT covid submarined our plans. The continuation of this plan when it was obvious it wasn't working (especially after Montreal) was pure madness.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

No, I don't think Shanny only blocked good moves. I think Shanny probably blocked some bad moves too. That's his job. Look at everything provided and make the final decision. I was listening to something lately and they said Dubas has been obsessed with acquiring Erik Karlsson leading back to his days as GM of Toronto. So I'm sure Shanny put a stop to that.

One thing we do know is on multiple occassions Shanahan has called the core four to tell them they aren't getting traded. So you have to assume that really constricted things for Dubas and is also currently constricting things for Brad.

Do you remember the look that Shanny gave Dubas when he said he acquired Foligno on that Prime series? Dubas proudly told him he got Foligno and Shanny was less than impressed. If Shanny was blocking moves...why not that horrific deal?

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

why is it that this certain poster makes threads when the leafs are losing or not playing well, and props up a Failed GM that we had here, and when the leafs are winning crickets, its so sad

maybe he just Dekes around those posts...

 

[Mopar]

The last time this organization had any serious respect in the hockey world was the Quinn era.

There has been a lot of pain since the 04/05 lockout and what I would consider the end of that era.

The team was going for it every year. 2 ECF appearances. Elite goaltending, an elite #1 center and captain in Sundin. Unfortunately a lot of the supporting cast were past their primes when they were brough it but they were solid teams and so enjoyable to watch. Skilled, tough, loaded with leadership and stood up for one another. They never laid down and never quit. Looking back at old highlights and seeing Quinn behind the bench just reminds me of better times following this team.

I believe we started to gain that respectability back when Shanahan was hired. Then Babcock, then Lou. The leafs were building a team of highly successful, serious hockey people. Then it all started to come undone.

My point is not all the regimes prior to the current one were failures in my opinion. There were some very good teams in the early 90's and then again in the late 90's early 2000's. That came close and very well could have gotten it done. This is a game of inches. Amazing memories.

 

[nuck]

Toronto Maple Leafs 2005/2006-2011/2012; 2013/2014-2015/2016 (I'm aware that Shanahan was hired in the midst of this period).

Yes, the current Leafs have underwhelmed. Compared to the dark days of the aforementioned periods of time though...

The dark days were from the club desperately clawing to make the playoffs every year instead of taking the hit necessary to draft elite players. I think that is Shanahan's one legitimate contribution to the regular season renaissance but most of the people on this board could have picked a tanking strategy. His actual building philosophy, whatever it is, hasn't converted to any post season success. I don't give KD a pass but you don't run a losing formula back year after year without the Prez being fully on board.

 

[Buds17]

The dark days were from the club desperately clawing to make the playoffs every year instead of taking the hit necessary to draft elite players. I think that is Shanahan's one legitimate contribution to the regular season renaissance but most of the people on this board could have picked a tanking strategy. His actual building philosophy, whatever it is, hasn't converted to any post season success. I don't give KD a pass but you don't run a losing formula back year after year without the Prez being fully on board.

Never good enough to make the playoffs while also not being good enough at the draft, in trades and through free agency to move the team closer to that goal. The tanking strategy consisted of being intentionally bad enough to hopefully add a Matthews to the few pieces of promise already in the pipeline from the lengthy down period (Marner, Nylander, Rielly). Any rebuild of course is a bill of goods until proven otherwise (being bad by design is the only guarantee).

I was only trying to state that making the playoffs (with the lone series win in there) is at least a step above not making them at all. I certainly remember growing up during the eras of this franchise competing in the Conference Finals (Burns and Quinn) and understand that the current situation unfortunately isn't that either.

 

[CaptainCrunch17]

Yep, the NHL wanted Shanahan in control of our Leafs so he could make our team competitive, but NOT competitive enough to win anything much in the playoffs.

If Shanahan really wanted to win as POHO, why would he hire Dubas with NO NHL experience as a GM? He hired him because he wanted to be able to control him. He knew that he wouldn't be able to control Hunter as easily as his GM.

Shanahan allowed Dubas to hand out inflated deals to Matthews, Marner, Nylander, and yes, even Tavares. This meant that our Leafs would have cap problems and be unable to build a competent complement of support players, including better Ds and goalies.

Tavares should have been offered a take it or leave deal at $10M tops. Sure, he could score goals, however his poor skating would hold him back, especially as he ages. He also proved nothing as Captain of the NYI.

Matthews at $10M with Marner at $8M tops, made more sense IMHO. Nylander should have been traded for a D-man when he held out. Nylander at $5.5-6M should have been his ceiling.

None of our core 4 had proven anything when they were signed to their inflated deals. And now, they still haven't proven they can consistently beat lesser talented teams !!!

Shanahan also allowed Dubas to hire a coach with NO NHL experience. That was okay till he got out-coached in the playoffs especially against the Habs, and the play-in series against the CBJ. To this day, Keefe continues to fail when it matters the most. Great regular season stats followed by playoff exits is what we can expect from Keefe !!!

I don't think our Leafs are going anywhere fast with Shanahan in charge. Please prove me WRONG MLSE, Shanahan, Treliving, and our OVERPAID core 4 !!! I dare you to find Stanley Cup success with the current state of our Leafs !!!

JMHO.

Shanahan doesn’t make the major decisions, the board does. I started, built up, and have owned a small/mid size corporation for 30 years plus, and trust me on this, no decision of consequence gets made without discussions or without the approval of the board of MLSE.

Decisions of consequence would entail yearly budgets and plans, contracts of significance, major personnel changes, legal matters and more.

Shanahan likely presents a plan to the board of MLSE at minimum yearly. He likely meets with them quarterly to update the board members.

If you think Shanahan hired Dubas without going to the board and having to present his case for his recommendation to do so, then I would politely suggest that you don’t understand basic corporate governance.

Shanahan would have gone in front of the board of MLSE and as President of the Leafs, made a presentation of what he believed should be done and asked for board approval to do so. He would have been asked to cost out the Dubas contract and been questioned on his rationale for his recommendation as well as any other alternative options and why his recommendation was better.

If the board disagreed, they likely would have told him to examine other options and re-present.

As an executive, go to the board too many times and present something they don’t agree with you on, and you likely get replaced at some point. Also, go to the board and make presentations and representations that don’t materialize and you eventually lose the board’s confidence and again, you likely get replaced.

Shanahan is the President, he isn’t the board, or the ownership group.

Decisions of consequence are recommended by Shanahan and approved by the board.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Tavares should have been offered a take it or leave deal at $10M tops.

You don’t spurge in the UFA market while rebuilding.
You don’t know what you need yet.

 

[Strangle]

Was Hyman really all about the money? He signed for 5.5 million and apparently was willing to sign for 5 million with Toronto as long as it was a long term deal. We’re paying Bertuzzi 5.5 million who’s worse than Hyman. Big miss on this managements part IMO. This organization seems to keep getting rid of players that love to be here and play the style you want come playoff time, Hyman, Bunting, Brown, Kadri, Moore, etc.

I miss hyman, too

But that was a calculated risk. For all of the ex-leafs the oilers picked up (there’s a lot of them), every single one flopped except Hyman.

And the thinking was that Hyman won’t be out performing that contract for the second half of it. There were legit questions that he would perform up to it somewhere else, without Matthews and Marner playing with him. He ended up on McDavid’s wing though, and that helped his numbers.

I don’t mean that in any way to take away from what Hyman has done. He has improved year on year for his entire career, that’s fantastic and I’m really happy for him. It’s been satisfying to watch him do that.

There is really only Hyman and one year of Kadri where the leafs walking away from a player hasn’t been the right thing to do.

Of all the dozens of players the leafs have let walk through Dubas time as GM of the team, they probably have a high 90% success rate

 

[keonsbitterness]

You don’t spurge in the UFA market while rebuilding.
You don’t know what you need yet.

I think you mean splurge.

 

[Ports]

An inexperienced President hired an inexperienced GM and the first decision they made was to pay a 2C $11M when they had a 30 goal scoring 2C already on a bargain contract. From there, their strategy and decision making only got worse. Shanny needs to be held accountable

 

[HockeyVirus]

It won't happen. MLSE has been clear they do not want to pay contracts to people not working for them after Babcock. Shanny makes like 7M a year and is signed for another 6 or 7 years. He is the most secure person in the organization.

Babcock was only paid for like 3 years to not coach and they bitched.

An inexperienced President hired an inexperienced GM and the first decision they made was to pay a 2C $11M when they had a 30 goal scoring 2C already on a bargain contract. From there, their strategy and decision making only got worse. Shanny needs to be held accountable

Absolutely awful take. A 2C? Tells anyone with a brain to ignore your post.

 

[Racer88]

Even if you grant them both a mulligan for trying to win with a top heavy salary structure...why not change course when you realized it wasn't working? I keep hearing about the cap being stagnant and all...but at the same time...you could use that as the excuse to deviate from your plan and say that it might have worked EXCEPT covid submarined our plans. The continuation of this plan when it was obvious it wasn't working (especially after Montreal) was pure madness.

I agree

 

[Ports]

It won't happen. MLSE has been clear they do not want to pay contracts to people not working for them after Babcock. Shanny makes like 7M a year and is signed for another 6 or 7 years. He is the most secure person in the organization.

Babcock was only paid for like 3 years to not coach and they bitched.



Absolutely awful take. A 2C? Tells anyone with a brain to ignore your post.

There’s only one 1C on that team and Tavares ain’t it.

 

[joepeps]

There’s only one 1C on that team and Tavares ain’t it.

Prime Malkin as a #2 center shouldn't make money either...

lol someone had too much to drink on NYE

 

[Lightsol]

The last time this organization had any serious respect in the hockey world was the Quinn era.

There has been a lot of pain since the 04/05 lockout and what I would consider the end of that era.

The team was going for it every year. 2 ECF appearances. Elite goaltending, an elite #1 center and captain in Sundin. Unfortunately a lot of the supporting cast were past their primes when they were brough it but they were solid teams and so enjoyable to watch. Skilled, tough, loaded with leadership and stood up for one another. They never laid down and never quit. Looking back at old highlights and seeing Quinn behind the bench just reminds me of better times following this team.

I believe we started to gain that respectability back when Shanahan was hired. Then Babcock, then Lou. The leafs were building a team of highly successful, serious hockey people. Then it all started to come undone.

My point is not all the regimes prior to the current one were failures in my opinion. There were some very good teams in the early 90's and then again in the late 90's early 2000's. That came close and very well could have gotten it done. This is a game of inches. Amazing memories.

What a lot of people who fondly remember that era of Leafs hockey and constantly whine about not getting back to it completely forget is that there was no salary cap at that time. Which meant that if the Leafs needed an all-star goalie, they could go out and spent $8 million on Curtis Joseph. Now? Even if they weren't paying the Big 4 the money they are, they'd be hard-pressed to fit such a contract in without having to skimp somewhere else, which is the entire point of the salary cap setup in the first place. Teams that are rewarded in the salary cap era tend to be teams that have a handful of players emerge from literally nowhere to become key components of a Cup team. Either players take a few years to break out (see Nathan Mackinnon) and their teams are able to sign them way under market rate for a while, or they have a few guys from the minors emerge from nowhere (Tampa has benefited from this over their recent Cup runs, with guys like Palat, Johnson, Kucherov, Cirelli, Cernak, and on and on). The Leafs haven't benefited from the latter pretty much at all, and their stars emerged too fast for them to take advantage of the former.

There’s only one 1C on that team and Tavares ain’t it.

If you had the choice between Tavares and Kadri now, which one would you take? And the answer to that question was an even bigger joke at the beginning of Tavares' contract.

 

[Bluebear]

Thank you for your logical response. The progression of someone in management in pro sports is not identical or similar to someone in the business world.

Additionally I’ve said this multiple times. Being a President of Hockey Ops isn’t just about the on ice product, it’s really about building an organizational structure. I think if you look at Kyle’s tenure as a GM there’s things he did well and things he did not so well.

Off ice, organizationally and building structure within an organization I think Kyle might be among the best in the NHL at that. He’s very personable, knows how to insulate himself with the right hockey minds and create good departments if given the resources. Not only that but not one person in hockey really has anything bad to say about the guy. Former players, staff all like him. I think this probably the thing he learned from Lou the most.

On ice product I feel Kyle really struggled here. He tried to reinvent the wheel and it didn’t work out. Also he’s someone who spends heavily. He went to Pittsburgh and basically didn’t change.

I believe there are many organizations who look at a guy like Kyle and say he will eventually figure out the on ice product side of things. But what he brings to an organization in terms of building an inclusive/positive work environment is probably what gets owners excited about him. Kyle is a good manager of people. The average fan does not think about that side of the job. There’s more to the job than the on ice product, we as fans only care about the on ice product, but the owners have a responsibility to ensure every part of the organization is taken care of and I truly believe that’s why a guy like Kyle is sought after.

I agree that ability to manage the people is important, but there are thousands of exceptional managers outside of hockey with proven track records with a ton of experience running large budgets and staff that could put the right hockey people in place and manage them, but teams don't do that. They put hockey people in charge and turn them over if the results aren't there...
Dubas might be good with the people but I seriously doubt that he won't be treated the same as all GM's and judged mostly by his results...