You had me until the last statement. Yes, in perfect world they would do get JT to waive, but they have no leverage so they can’t make him do anything short of doing something really scummy and detrimental to the team like perma healthy scratching him until he waives.
Firing Dubas was an excuse, the real problem is Shanny.
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You had me until the last statement. Yes, in perfect world they would do get JT to waive, but they have no leverage so they can’t make him do anything short of doing something really scummy and detrimental to the team like perma healthy scratching him until he waives.
we don't know if it was Marner, Rielly or Nylander but pretty sure one of those 3 was the plan to be moved under dubas. Now, I'm glad it Dubas wasn't the guy who made the move because it sounds like it would have been for Erik Karlsson most likely and that would have been disasterious
hotpaws
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you don't need leverage . most players wouldn't want to stay where their not wanted
and you don't need to healthy scratch him , just let him know his role will be reduced , tell him he'll be a 3rd line wing and on the 2nd pp unit and watch how quickly he gives you a list of teams he'll accept a trade to
I am Canadian
AM34|WN88|MM16
He needed permission to add a 3rd rounder for the Foligno trade.
Do you really think he would have been allowed to trade Marner? Especially with Matthews needing a new contract
ToneDog
56 years and counting. #FireTheShanaClan!
As much as I wanted to move off the core, never in a million years would I want Kyle making that trade. As JD Bunkis says, the guy gets body bagged in trades.
ITM
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Appreciated!
By that account, we were waaaaay overdue for good old fashioned fanbase implosion.
why is it that this certain poster makes threads when the leafs are losing or not playing well, and props up a Failed GM that we had here, and when the leafs are winning crickets, its so sad
GoonieFace
Registered User
And the flip-flopping of said poster is epic
ITM
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Was it mentioned he GM'd the Marlies to their first ever championship with Keefe as his coach?
I see the natural graduation. I think Shanahan handled the promotion reasonably well. Other factors certainly would have been preferred in an ideal situation. The bottom fell out with Tavares and a plan likely in place that accounted for a budget that was removed by Rona and terribly naive assumptions that our young star corps were going to take traditional, graduating deals.
But credit where its due. Hindsight and all...
Canadian Finn
Oskee Wee Wee
PromisedLand
I need more FOOD
Shanny said players should provide discounts. Its on record; while dubas went out and gave bloated contracts, completely undermining Shanny's pitch.
Brendan Shanahan says Toronto Leafs expect their young stars to take less money to stay together
The Maple Leafs president says that the years of ‘winning and growing together’ are what are remembered, and so that’s what they are asking of their ‘young leaders’
www.theglobeandmail.com
Managing AHL team is not the same as managing NHL team with cap constraints and contract constraints.
Here is the list of calder cup winners:
Calder Cup Champions – Teams
theahl.com
How many of these franchises actually transitioned that success in NHL on a consistent basis? There is hardly any correlation there.
saffronleaf
Registered User
Shanny said players should provide discounts. Its on record; while dubas went out and gave bloated contracts, completely undermining Shanny's pitch.
Brendan Shanahan says Toronto Leafs expect their young stars to take less money to stay together
The Maple Leafs president says that the years of ‘winning and growing together’ are what are remembered, and so that’s what they are asking of their ‘young leaders’
Managing AHL team is not the same as managing NHL team with cap constraints and contract constraints.
Here is the list of calder cup winners:
Calder Cup Champions – Teams
How many of these franchises actually transitioned that success in NHL on a consistent basis? There is hardly any correlation there.
Come on. I was with you until you said Dubas undermined Shanny. Who do you think approved those extensions LOL. You think those extensions happened without a call to Shanny with that type of money?
No Shanahan is a hypocrite. If he truly meant what he said he would have told Dubas to let both Nylander and Marner sit at home.
Most likely MM for EK and would had resigned Acciari and Schenn
ITM
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No argument he's been lucky. But...don't we in any number of other situations promote on the basis of other jobs? Certainly AHL success leads to NHL opportunity (and sometimes success i.e. Jon Cooper) don't they?
I take your point: Experience in the NHL as cause for promotion in the NHL; But if you have a young executive who has been groomed (to whatever known degree) by a legendary GM, who then gives his endorsement of the young executive who won the AHL championship for the first time...Are those kinds of successes meaningless or meaningful when weighing promotion?
I've criticized Dubas in situations that doing otherwise smack of bias to me. I can't argue against his promotion given the factors of the time. I wish there was a greater supplement of oversight, but I don't see the promotion as a gap in judgement moreover without knowing what other factors were in play.
robertmac43
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BertCorbeau
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It could be both, really. Shanny deserves lots of heat now and it’s easy to say “what if” had Dubas had more reigns on the roster.
I’d take a guess that Shanny had more control on bigger roster decisions (like the core 4 and their contracts or trading one) and maybe pieces at the deadline. I could easily see Shanny pushing hard for Foligno too, as an example.
But Dubas wears some other moves without a doubt
I’d take a guess that Shanny had more control on bigger roster decisions (like the core 4 and their contracts or trading one) and maybe pieces at the deadline. I could easily see Shanny pushing hard for Foligno too, as an example.
But Dubas wears some other moves without a doubt
PromisedLand
I need more FOOD
Shanahan is definitely in the wrong as far as hiring Dubas IMO. Dubas' bloated contracts, handling of sparks situation, internal power struggle with Babcock, and then getting dime a dozen players like Malgin, Petan, etc... with bloated contracts ruined what should have been progression for the franchise.
You cannot absolve Dubas' decisions. Dubas was always paying "extra" for other teams to absorb the cap as a third team while Leafs continued to falter in playoffs. Heck even last season dubas completely changed the team throwing way draft capital.
As a GM it was his responsibility to recognize the team he has and then make calculated decisions and not do a hail mary which IMO was entire Dubas' tenure as a Leafs GM.
Hail Mary + galaxy braining + really horrendous cap and asset management would be Dubas' legacy.
Treliving is just on the job; you gotta give him time to mold this team. Shanahan is definitely judged because of his hiring of dubas; but at the same time shanahan deserves a lot of credit for convincing Bell/Rogers/MLSE to go scorced earth rebuild too.
Shanahan IMO is just even right about now, next 2 to 3 years will put Shanahan's legacy into a better picture
EDIT: In terms of Shanny being controlling of the GM; I think the bloated ridiculous contracts are prime example of Shanny not exerting full contol on the GM IMO. I believe Shanny had to step in to control dubas' extravagant style to not ruin Leafs' future completely.
ITM
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I recall. You probably also remember the dialogue that pitted some members against Shanahan's position because Shanahan didn't take a discount as a player?
Concerning success from the AHL to the NHL; I don't believe there's a direct correlation, but I think success at lower levels always advises capacity for success at graduated levels.
I can see the rationale in weighing any number of factors for promotion re: Dubas. Again: Wasn't there and don't know why other pieces (like retaining Lou) wasn't a possibility...Kind of hurts to think what might have been (contractually) had Lou stayed. But its all speculation.
I'll say this, Tim Leiweke's presence gave me the sense that all options were being assessed prior to decisions being made. I don't get the same vibe, however far cast our nets now go before any number of decisions are made.
Would be interesting if Lou stayed for 3 more years and Dubas took the GM job with the Avs.
Think the Leafs will still be where we are at today but with a few more playoff rounds victory.
Think the Leafs will still be where we are at today but with a few more playoff rounds victory.
PromisedLand
I need more FOOD
I thought those discussions also involved the "salary cap"; as unless I am mistaken; during Shanny's tenure as a player there was no hard salary cap.
AHL success, in general, doesn't translate to NHL success. There is ample evidence to suggest that. Disregarding that evidence in decision making is irrational IMO, which Shanahan did when considering promotion for dubas.
Leiweke's hiring of shanahan led to scorched earth rebuild; gotta give credit to Shanahan for convincing MLSE to allow a rebuild.
Burke, JFJ, etc.. couldn't convince MLSE (teacher pension plan being major share holder) to allow a rebuild; they wanted to do it. Especially JFJ wanted to rebuild. He was forced into trading Rask. There were plenty articles written in papers then (no internet link else I'd post it).
IMO Shanny's initial approach was sound. Rebuild and slowly progress. Dubas' promotion led to things go haywire, a great error in judgment for Shanny IMO
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ITM
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That's an interesting observation when pressed with the prevailing criticism by many that Shanahan has been too controlling. Negligence you say is the foundational mistake by Shanahan?
See, I tend to agree with that perception; That Shanahan had been too permissive, BUT, in a pre-pandemic world. That's a tough time to make that kind of mistake.
I don't think Treliving is anyone's puppet. I think Treliving's connections and reputation went a long way towards Shanahan hiring him. Bit of a rebound hire in a way when we look closer at all the factors.
The next couple of months will be very interesting.
Either way, are we really going to experience monumental change until Tavares' contract situation is reconciled? To say nothing of Nylander and Marner?
I'll whisper the name I've said could make three decisions and alter our club for the better for what its worth:
Scotty Bowman. Call him whatever he wants. His counsel produces championship environments. If he's still capable...
……. Because it’s the only way to pass AAAAALLLLLL THE TESTS!
Some posters have just become long running jokes now that the Altar of Dubas has been removed for worship.
Now the intent seems to just be disruptive.
It would be sad if it wasn’t so pathetic.
rumman
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Bullshit might get you to the top, but it won’t keep you there, Dubas is a snake and the old boys network will take care of him in due time, then it’s back to the Greyhounds…….
