Firing Dubas was an excuse, the real problem is Shanny.

[TMLAM34]

Hyman was about the money. Budget reality set in and the reasonable assumption that the tail end of his deal would age poorly. How many guys become a ppg player at age 30 for the first time? The crippling deals that defined Dubas tenure were in all year one and everything after that was triage. 20-20 hindsight they pass on JT once the bidding hit $10M and keep Kadri and Hyman both.

Benoit looks really good in his limited usage. Hopefully he doesn't get a Schenn/Lybushkin springboard from a solid year in TO. Small sample but he seems like someone they should extend asap.

Was Hyman really all about the money? He signed for 5.5 million and apparently was willing to sign for 5 million with Toronto as long as it was a long term deal. We’re paying Bertuzzi 5.5 million who’s worse than Hyman. Big miss on this managements part IMO. This organization seems to keep getting rid of players that love to be here and play the style you want come playoff time, Hyman, Bunting, Brown, Kadri, Moore, etc.

 

[nuck]

He was GM of an AHL team and he was an assistant GM of an NHL team prior to being named GM.
That’s a natural progression. Would have been a good fit in the right situation, and the Leafs were not the right situation.

He wasn't ready for the big chair when he got it. Really it was on the job training and that isn't the position to do that with. One more year would have been infinitely better because the stuff he took on in his first year was a Boss Level challenge for any GM and Shanahan should have been aware of that. Now I think he still would have had to learn the building blocks required to create a legit playoff NHL team so no guarantee of success but it would have been a vastly different team without those big 4 salaries.

Its a natural progression if a guy is ready but the options that were out there (and the Leafs might have been spooked into a hire when he may not have been selected by other teams) forced the club's hand early. I am not a fan of KD based on what he did here but one more year before they put Lou out to pasture could have been a game changer. Did KD put a gun to Shanny's head and say "pay me or I walk" or was it Shanny's own genius that made that happen?

I disagree that he was ready for the GM spot when he got it but a young team that hadn't turned the corner seems like a much better place to start the journey than the Leafs who just broke through..

 

[francis246]

that's actually quite accurate.

you know how many dumb millennials work for me and think they are due a promotion - just because.

sometime during school I guess kids were told just "existing" makes them due bonuses and promotions. I have kids in my team that think they are secretly "quiet quitting". They think they are one step above the company.

instead they'll not get a promotion (ever) and will quit and go work somewhere else.

promotions are earned. Dubas didn't earn one.

Working for a professional team isn’t the same as your business. That’s the first thing boomers need to understand and accept. It’s not relatable. That’s why you guys have a hard time understanding what Kyle did.

In this setting Kyle’s role is to improve the team. If someone is purposely preventing you from doing that, how can you effectively do your job. There’s def a bit of truth to both sides. Kyle made or attempted a power play, but that probably came after Shanahan consistently shooting down his ideas to improve the team and an unwillingness to move off the core four or five.

 

[Canadian Finn]

Sounds like poor leadership and you may have your generations mixed up.

I don't have any Zds working for me.

Mill's, X's, and Boomers.

Mills are the ones at review time saying "I've worked for you for two years, I should have gotten a promotion by now. How long until I'm promoted?".

And when I ask why they have done to be promoted, aside from just exist, I get this lazy look back like they don't compute.

The last one that quit on their exit interview said our company wasn't recognizing their long standing employees. She worked for us for less than three years and was the most junior in our team, lol.

Working for a professional team isn’t the same as your business. That’s the first thing boomers need to understand and accept. It’s not relatable. That’s why you guys have a hard time understanding what Kyle did.

In this setting Kyle’s role is to improve the team. If someone is purposely preventing you from doing that, how can you effectively do your job. There’s def a bit of truth to both sides. Kyle made or attempted a power play, but that probably came after Shanahan consistently shooting down his ideas to improve the team and an unwillingness to move off the core four or five.

I was born in the 80s.

Far from a boomer.

I learned what it takes to be successful. Learned that from my boomer mentors.

 

[francis246]

He wasn't ready for the big chair when he got it. Really it was on the job training and that isn't the position to do that with. One more year would have been infinitely better because the stuff he took on in his first year was a Boss Level challenge for any GM and Shanahan should have been aware of that. Now I think he still would have had to learn the building blocks required to create a legit playoff NHL team so no guarantee of success but it would have been a vastly different team without those big 4 salaries.

Its a natural progression if a guy is ready but the options that were out there (and the Leafs might have been spooked into a hire when he may not have been selected by other teams) forced the club's hand early. I am not a fan of KD based on what he did here but one more year before they put Lou out to pasture could have been a game changer. Did KD put a gun to Shanny's head and say "pay me or I walk" or was it Shanny's own genius that made that happen?

I disagree that he was ready for the GM spot when he got it but a young team that hadn't turned the corner seems like a much better place to start the journey than the Leafs who just broke through..

Kyle Dubas was the front runner for both the Arizona sand Colorado job the year before. He would have accepted those jobs but Shanny had the 3 year plan in place already. There were other teams that were going to make Dubas their GM. Let’s not pretend like he wasn’t qualified to be an NHL GM. He GM’d in the OHL, was the GM of the AHL farm team, then NHL assistant GM. That’s about as natural a progression it gets. He started GMing young that’s all. Doesn’t mean he was a good GM. He had more experience building teams than Shanahan ironically.

I don't have any Zds working for me.

Mill's, X's, and Boomers.

Mills are the ones at review time saying "I've worked for you for two years, I should have gotten a promotion by now. How long until I'm promoted?".

And when I ask why they have done to be promoted, aside from just exist, I get this lazy look back like they don't compute.

The last one that quit on their exit interview said our company wasn't recognizing their long standing employees. She worked for us for less than three years and was the most junior in our team, lol.


I was born in the 80s.

Far from a boomer.

I learned what it takes to be successful. Learned that from my boomer mentors.

Good for you, again what does your business have to do with running a hockey team?

 

[Canadian Finn]

the premise of promotions are the same, whether a GM of a hockey team, or the janitor of the mailroom.

 

[francis246]

the premise of promotions are the same, whether a GM of a hockey team, or the janitor of the mailroom.

No it’s not equivalent. The premise of promotions with in a specific industry is based on those industry standards. In the NHL people with less experience than Kyle have been handed jobs. So please miss me with this bullshit. Martin St. Louis never coached professionally a day in his life and was handed a job.

Again I’m not a Kyle apologist but acting like he wasn’t qualified is dumb. He payed his dues. He GM’d in the OHL, AHL and was an NHL AGM for a number of years. That’s more experience than many others had before gettting a GM job. How many years did Kevyn Adams work in management before getting a job? Less than a year in the business operations side, not even hockey ops.

 

[nuck]

Was Hyman really all about the money? He signed for 5.5 million and apparently was willing to sign for 5 million with Toronto as long as it was a long term deal. We’re paying Bertuzzi 5.5 million who’s worse than Hyman. Big miss on this managements part IMO. This organization seems to keep getting rid of players that love to be here and play the style you want come playoff time, Hyman, Bunting, Brown, Kadri, Moore, etc.

He would have been expecting 8 years NM on a contract that started at age 29. He missed 14 games his last year with the Leafs and plays a style that most would agree is hard to maintain after age 30. And he couldn't bring even his modest regular season production into the playoffs under Keefe.

It has all the signs of being a bad deal for the club but without Tavares its the type of deal they might have done anyway.

 

[Canadian Finn]

No it’s not equivalent. The premise of promotions with in a specific industry is based on those industry standards. In the NHL people with less experience than Kyle have been handed jobs. So please miss me with this bullshit. Martin St. Louis never coached professionally a day in his life and was handed a job.

Again I’m not a Kyle apologist but acting like he wasn’t qualified is dumb. He payed his dues. He GM’d in the OHL, AHL and was an NHL AGM for a number of years. That’s more experience than many others had before gettting a GM job. How many years did Kevyn Adams work in management before getting a job? Less than a year in the business operations side, not even hockey ops.

a job and a promotion are two different things.

you are selling the stereotype of not understanding the difference perfectly.

thank you for that.

 

[Seath The Scaleless]

Treliving needs to get a lot more flak. He came to a team that finished tied for 4th in the NHL and 7th best in goals against per game, and they now sit at 12th and 26th respectively. He had tons of cap space to bring a comparably strong team back if not better, but he made things significantly worse

When one of your goalies goes from solid last year to literally the worst this year, then yeah, your goals against will skyrocket.

 

[TheTotalPackage]

I agree that Shanahan's presidency may have run its course. But as always is the case in situations like this, who do they bring in to replace him.

The franchise is at a critical juncture right now. They really would need someone to come in with a vision to get this team to take those next steps. Meaning, win a Cup soon with Matthews, Marner, Nylander and Rielly all still in their primes.

 

[francis246]

a job and a promotion are two different things.

you are selling the stereotype of not understanding the difference perfectly.

thank you for that.

Kevyn adams was promoted from Senior Vp of business ops to GM of hockey club. That’s a promotion

You act like Kyle has been a GM for 1 year in totality. He’s been GMing at various levels for about 15 years. He’s isn’t new to running an organization. He could have gone about getting autonomy better but the idea of him wanting more autonomy isn’t that big of a deal considering his experience and the fact that he infact has MORE EXPERIENCE than Shanahan in this field TBH. Shanahan also had no experience running a hockey club prior to his hiring. So I don’t get the point you’re trying to make? Sounds like you’re just hating on a guy to hate on a guy.

 

[Racer88]

The problem with Dubas is that he thought he was the smartest guy in the room and could reinvent how a team is structured .
The problem with Shanny and ownership is they bought into his nonsense and allowed him to send the team to far down a fools road.

 

[TheGreenTBer]

View attachment 793135

Literally this.

 

[Apex Predator]

Just cause you have been with someone for x amount of time doesn’t mean you deserve a promotion. If you aren’t good or not succeeding at your job why should you get a promotion. You see that a lot where people do the bare minimum and then want a promotion. You showed nothing for a promotion except doing the bare minimum and being around.

 

[francis246]

Well Bunting and Kadri both became liabilities at the end of their tenure here. Plus all the players you mentioned became cap casualties. We couldn't afford to keep giving every forward raises on their next deals.

We could have kept Hyman! He was willing to sign long term. We wanted him on a short team deal

 

[Canadian Finn]

Kevyn adams was promoted from Senior Vp of business ops to GM of hockey club. That’s a promotion

You act like Kyle has been a GM for 1 year in totality. He’s been GMing at various levels for about 15 years. He’s isn’t new to running an organization. He could have gone about getting autonomy better but the idea of him wanting more autonomy isn’t that big of a deal considering his experience and the fact that he infact has MORE EXPERIENCE than Shanahan in this field TBH. Shanahan also had no experience running a hockey club prior to his hiring. So I don’t get the point you’re trying to make? Sounds like you’re just hating on a guy to hate on a guy.

your responses are absolutely perfect, and exactly what I described.

the idea that time = promotion. the idea that existing = promotion.

experience does not = promotion.

someone can be doing the same job for years and years, but are not doing it well. They don't deserve a promotion.

Your response is literally exactly what I described. The notion that simply existing deserves a promotion. Thank you for perfectly illustrating my experience.

To a T.

 

[rumman]

I agree that Shanahan's presidency may have run its course. But as always is the case in situations like this, who do they bring in to replace him.

The franchise is at a critical juncture right now. They really would need someone to come in with a vision to get this team to take those next steps. Meaning, win a Cup soon with Matthews, Marner, Nylander and Rielly all still in their primes.

I’ve thought all along that Shanahan is on very thin ice and Tre was hired to be his replacement, which would mean Tre moves to the presidency and hires a new GM………

 

[francis246]

your responses are absolutely perfect, and exactly what I described.

the idea that time = promotion. the idea that existing = promotion.

experience does not = promotion.

someone can be doing the same job for years and years, but are not doing it well. They don't deserve a promotion.

Your response is literally exactly what I described. The notion that simply existing deserves a promotion. Thank you for perfectly illustrating my experience.

To a T.

it's nothing like you described. and it's funny that you keep trying to interpret/change what I've said to fit this stupid narrative you think is correct. Working in an environment isn't simply existing. Also again, stop comparing your work environment to the world of professional sports. No one cares or gives a damn what business you run or how you promote people. It's not equivalent. In professional Sports results aren't necessarily a factor in whether you get promoted or get a higher title. Everyone who watches sports understands and knows that to be true.

 

[rumman]

The problem with Dubas is that he thought he was the smartest guy in the room and could reinvent how a team is structured .
The problem with Shanny and ownership is they bought into his nonsense and allowed him to send the team to far down a fools road.

Dubas’ weakness is his arrogance………

 

[Racer88]

Dubas’ weakness is his arrogance………

His strength is that he is a very skilled con man

 

[rumman]

Just cause you have been with someone for x amount of time doesn’t mean you deserve a promotion. If you aren’t good or not succeeding at your job why should you get a promotion. You see that a lot where people do the bare minimum and then want a promotion. You showed nothing for a promotion except doing the bare minimum and being around.

That’s what happens when everyone gets a trophy, the absence of knowing what it means to earn something is a lost entity……….

 

[Canadian Finn]

In professional Sports results aren't necessarily a factor in whether you get promoted or get a higher title. Everyone who watches sports understands and knows that to be true.

amazing.

 

[Fogelhund]

It's impossible to really know what the main problem is, or if it's a bunch of issues.... We can point at Dubas, or Shanny, or Keefe, or the players, or Tre...

I look at it, and think it's some of the players first, parts of the core just don't have what it takes, and the loyalty to them has been too long, though maybe not as bad as some would make it out to be... when you have a core this talented, you do have to give them some rope, to grow and mature...give it time... also, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results.... it's just not happening for this group, so you have to start to make changes.... the coach is the easiest first step of course, then you wonder about the core.... last summer I wanted to make a culture change.. I wanted some heavier D, and some heavier players in the lineup overall. There was talk about having more snot... but that was just talk, and didn't materialize.

It's clearly time for change.... just where is the starting point? If Shanny says we don't need change... well, that's where you start....

 

[rumman]

His strength is that he is a very skilled con man

He never fooled me, I knew he was a pretender from the beginning……….