Firing Dubas was an excuse, the real problem is Shanny.

[Havoc]

Dubas should have been fired the moment Hyman needed an extension.

Bunting is barely passable as a 4th liner once playoff hockey starts.

Imagine the core had Hyman and Bertuzzi behind them.

Hopefully the days of getting rid of someone good so you can have a bunting kampf kase ritchie stack is over. Probably had the same plans for Marner upcoming. 4 Kerfoot's instead

 

[ToneDog]

Dubas should have been fired the moment Hyman needed an extension.

Bunting is barely passable as a 4th liner once playoff hockey starts.

Imagine the core had Hyman and Bertuzzi behind them.

Hopefully the days of getting rid of someone good so you can have a bunting kampf kase ritchie stack is over. Probably had the same plans for Marner. 4 Kerfoot's instead

Dubas could not fit in Hyman, let alone Hyman and Bertuzzi. Paying your stars is fine but not when you have to fill out the roster with a bunch if scrubs you find at the bottom of a dumpster. Fradting and developing players like Knies is how you do it but it takes years.

 

[Havoc]

Dubas could not fit in Hyman, let alone Hyman and Bertuzzi. Paying your stars is fine but not when you have to fill out the roster with a bunch if scrubs you find at the bottom of a dumpster. Fradting and developing players like Knies is how you do it but it takes years.

100% possible to have Hyman and Bertuzzi both on the team today. (It doesn't need to be Bertuzzi exactly, but I don't endorse the tree like structure of breaking a player down into multiple inferior options)

 

[ToneDog]

100% possible to have Hyman and Bertuzzi both on the team today.

Yes but you have to pay Peter to pay Paul. Hyman in and Sammy, Klingberg out and Woll and Benoit in. You might be able to get by in the regular season, but odds are your goaltending and D go south in April, your stars are shut down and it is a long summer. At the end of the day if you build around 4 forwards, those forwards have to dominate in the playoffs. Our guys have not been able to do it.

 

[Havoc]

Yes but you have to pay Peter to pay Paul. Hyman in and Sammy, Klingberg out and Woll and Benoit in. You might be able to get by in the regular season, but odds are your goaltending and D go south in April, your stars are shut down and it is a long summer. At the end of the day if you build around 4 forwards, those forwards have to dominate in the playoffs. Our guys have not been able to do it.

Superstars don't grow on trees.

"Our guys have not been able to do it" is not enough merit to shake things up. You will most likely end up in an even worse situation all because you gave in to a sentiment.

The only option is to attack the depth, which prior management was horrendous at. There's enough cap space remaining after the core. Dubas being clueless how to use it properly doesn't mean there isn't enough.

 

[DraftSchmaft]

100% possible to have Hyman and Bertuzzi both on the team today.

This is facts. Dubas brainwashed this place into thinking we don't have enough cap space. Very convenient get out of jail free card. Easier to justify that he got unlucky being lucky handed superstars in a flat cap era.

 

[ToneDog]

Superstars don't grow on trees.

"Our guys have not been able to do it" is not enough merit to shake things up. You will most likely end up in an even worse situation all because you gave in to a sentiment.

The only option is to attack the depth, which prior management was horrendous at. There's enough cap space remaining after the core. Dubas being clueless how to use it properly doesn't mean there isn't enough.

Agreed but you need the right combination of superstars and our guys are not it. Part of it is that JT is no longer a superstar and Mitch's game does not translate to the playoffs.

Sub in McDavid/MaKinnon and Draisaitl/Rantanen for Marner and Tavares and you have a better case.

 

[ToneDog]

This is facts. Dubas brainwashed this place into thinking we don't have enough cap space. Very convenient get out of jail free card.

Dubas did not draft and develop enough NHL players, partly because he was using high picks to fix mistakes and upgrade at the TDL. They fell into the trap that they thought they had a serious contender. They never did and still do not. Hopefully Tre does not fool himself into the same thinking.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Dubas brainwashed this place into thinking we don't have enough cap space.

This place brainwashed itself into thinking we don't have enough cap space. All Dubas did was make the cap space work to build excellent teams.

Dubas did not draft and develop enough NHL players

Dubas drafted a number of NHL players - multiple on the team now, with more to come. GMs before Dubas did not draft and develop enough NHL players. Some people don't seem to realize that there is a multi-year lag between drafting a player and having them be an effective part of a competitive NHL team.

 

[Havoc]

Agreed but you need the right combination of superstars and our guys are not it. Part of it is that JT is no longer a superstar and Mitch's game does not translate to the playoffs.

Sub in McDavid/MaKinnon and Draisaitl/Rantanen for Marner and Tavares and you have a better case.

Marner is a 26 year old Superstar half a decade away from having to worry about regression and JT is still elite relative to the 2C role regardless of his age. His cap hit is too high but that's because we got him for free while he was still in his prime as a UFA. It's the residual costs of getting to cheat on your build so to speak.

Unless you can prove to me our depth build was anything other than a joke I don't see why we're attacking these guys. It's easier to fix the depth than it is to restructure the core.

It will take us 10+ years to find another Marner so we should scrutinize everything else heavily before venturing into Marner. When you scrutinize everything else you realize how badly Dubas built around the core.

 

[Havoc]

Agreed but you need the right combination of superstars and our guys are not it. Part of it is that JT is no longer a superstar and Mitch's game does not translate to the playoffs.

Sub in McDavid/MaKinnon and Draisaitl/Rantanen for Marner and Tavares and you have a better case.

I forgot to mention, JT is actually a good example of the tree like structure to avoid.

It comes back to relative gain. It's hard to build a team where you have an elite 2C behind Matthews.

The difficulty level going the core-restructure route is like 10000000. The difficulty level going the depth route is 100. I just don't get why we'd ever consider a core restructure yet.

 

[ToneDog]

Marner is a 26 year old Superstar half a decade away from having to worry about regression and JT is still elite relative to the 2C role regardless of his age. His cap hit is too high but that's because we got him for free while he was still in his prime as a UFA. It's the residual costs of getting to cheat on your build so to speak.

Unless you can prove to me our depth build was anything other than a joke I don't see why we're attacking these guys. It's easier to fix the depth than it is to restructure the core.

It will take us 10+ years to find another Marner so we should scrutinize everything else heavily before venturing into Marner. When you scrutinize everything else you realize how badly Dubas built around the core.

So we just have to find the right combination of depth players? Not so easy to do as proven, soon to be, 6 years in a row. I say because Tre signed Klingberg, Reaves and Sammy this summer. Now we wait to see if he can correct those mistakes and if they work in the playoffs.

 

[Hoglund4MvP]

Getting to sign JT when he's still 27 for free as a UFA is once in a lifetime opportunity.

Should study why we couldn't win even with adding JT instead of attacking JT in 2024. Might not come back to being cap problem.

 

[ToneDog]

This place brainwashed itself into thinking we don't have enough cap space. All Dubas did was make the cap space work to build excellent teams.

Dubas drafted a number of NHL players - multiple on the team now, with more to come. GMs before Dubas did not draft and develop enough NHL players. Some people don't seem to realize that there is a multi-year lag between drafting a player and having them be an effective part of a competitive NHL team.

We wait for one of Dubas' draft picks to make a sizeable impact. Hoping Knies.

 

[Dekes For Days]

We wait for one of Dubas' draft picks to make a sizeable impact. Hoping Knies.

We have two Dubas draft picks in our top 9 forwards this year, while still on their ELCs - Knies and Robertson. Sandin gave us multiple ELC years and then returned a 1st. Durzi is an NHL player and helped get us Muzzin. Holmberg a cheap depth option. We had multiple prospects playing for team Canada at the WJC this year, including their captain. Grebenkin coming off KHL rookie of the year. Hildeby excelling. Niemela doing really well in his first year in North America. And a bunch of other prospects doing really well in their respective leagues. And that's with his highest drafted prospect unexpectedly dying. Of all the bad arguments people make about Dubas, going after his drafting is probably the most bizarre.

 

[Havoc]

This is facts. Dubas brainwashed this place into thinking we don't have enough cap space. Very convenient get out of jail free card. Easier to justify that he got unlucky being lucky handed superstars in a flat cap era.

I've given up getting people to jump on board but I'm doubling down the flat cap Era is an asset for our team, so I will never accept cap issue arguments.

There is not enough cap space league wide to offset matthews marner and nylander at their current ages insulated by JT and Rielly.

The further insulation was just horrible. Hockey is one of the toughest sports in the universe. For instance we'd love a Tkachuk on the team but even he was finished by round 4. Couldn't even get out of bed.

We need better insulation to offset what the game becomes during the playoffs. At the end of the day the core is not machines. And its not expensive as people think. Just need to be smart about it. Team is resilient as a unit with goaltending that isn't trash.

Plucking off mediocre nodes for one good 4-5 mil player like Bertuzzi is a good start. When players start to break down in spring, the Bertuzzis of the league have a good chance to go point per game. Then your cheap guys fill needs effectively, like a Benoit.

 

[ToneDog]

We have two Dubas draft picks in our top 9 forwards this year - Knies and Robertson. Sandin gave us multiple ELC years and then returned a 1st. Durzi is an NHL player and helped get us Muzzin. Holmberg a cheap depth option. We had multiple prospects playing for team Canada at the WJC this year, including their captain. Grebenkin coming off KHL rookie of the year. Hildeby excelling. Niemela doing really well in his first year in North America. And a bunch of other prospects doing really well in their respective leagues. And that's with his highest drafted prospect unexpectedly dying. Of all the bad arguments people make about Dubas, going after his drafting is probably the most bizarre.

Sandy, Durzi are decent selections but they do not move the needle. I mean, do you give Hunter as much credit for drafting Grundstrom, Woll, Lily?

 

[Shooter2x]

I've given up getting people to jump on board but I'm doubling down the flat cap Era is an asset for our team, so I will never accept cap issue arguments.

There is not enough cap space league wide to offset matthews marner and nylander at their current ages insulated by JT and Rielly.

The further insulation was just horrible. Hockey is one of the toughest sports in the universe. For instance we'd love a Tkachuk on the team but even he was finished by round 4. Couldn't even get out of bed.

We need better insulation to offset what the game becomes during the playoffs. At the end of the day the core is not machines. And its not expensive as people think. Just need to be smart about it. Team is resilient as a unit with goaltending that isn't trash.

Plucking off mediocre nodes for one good 4-5 mil player like Bertuzzi is a good start. When players start to break down in spring, the Bertuzzis of the league have a good chance to go point per game. Then your cheap guys fill needs effectively, like a Benoit.

I was the origin of the flat cap is our asset theory. Credit to me please.

Can confirm you will get zero allies lol

 

[IPS]

do you give Hunter as much credit for drafting Grundstrom, Woll, Lily?

That's about where Dekes will make his prompt exit out of the argument.

It's gross how little homegrown talent we have on team - especially the D.

 

[Havoc]

Can confirm you will get zero allies lol

Good. The majority opinion here is rarely correct.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Sandy, Durzi are decent selections but they do not move the needle. I mean, do you give Hunter as much credit for drafting Grundstrom, Woll, Lily?

I highlighted a lot more than just Sandin and Durzi.
Your determination of what counts and doesn't seems pretty arbitrary.
I give credit for Grundstrom, Woll (who has only recently started helping us), and Liljegren. We just should have got more from those years and years prior.

 

[ToneDog]

I highlighted a lot more than just Sandin and Durzi.
Your determination of what counts and doesn't seems pretty arbitrary.
I give credit for Grundstrom, Woll (who has only recently started helping us), and Liljegren. We just should have got more from those years and years prior.

I listed all the players Dubas drafted and only mentioned the two with the most NHL games. You can look at the list and decide for yourself how good he did at drafting. Yes the jury is still out for some and yes we should have gotten more from the early Shanny years.

 

[conFABulator]

What problem are we solving for here exactly?

Over the past five (5) NHL seasons the Leafs have the fifth highest points percentage in the league behind Boston, Colorado, Tampa, and Carolina.

Two of those teams have won 3 of the past 5 Stanley Cups. Boston hasn't, neither has Carolina.

Toronto has the league's longest active streak for playoff qualifying.

It took both Tampa and Colorado several years from kicking off the rebuild to hoisting their first cup.

Can we stop acting like something is broken Just because it hasn't won yet.

 

[Canadian Finn]

lol

 

[Dekes For Days]

I listed all the players Dubas drafted and only mentioned the two with the most NHL games. You can look at the list and decide for yourself how good he did at drafting.

They have the most NHL games because they're the two highest draft picks in the oldest draft. That doesn't mean they're the only relevant picks. Far from it.
We're back to the issue of ignoring that it takes time to go from drafted to effective part of a competitive NHL team.
Our drafts over that time are already bearing multiple fruits that are helping us right now, and a ton of the other selections are trending very well, and hold increased value.
Not sure how anybody could be upset with that.