Fire Shanahan/Dubas (Yay or Nay)

[usernamezrhardtodo]

I don’t know how much more proof people need.
Spent half our cap on 4 forwards. Then required to trade away all our depth to support his boy band, traded away all our picks to get guys like Owen Nolan (I mean Foligno) and past the prime of Thornton etc.
With zero success in the playoffs to lesser competition each time and an easy division/half season to boot.

I mean what’s left for an encore?

I think I know why Dubas is so insistent on the top heavy approach is going to work. He sees the star players as difference makers that you need to win. It is true..but when he is comparing teams like the Pens that won to our team..he fails to see they had solid depth throughout the whole lineup. It wasn't Sid and Gino with a bunch of 4th line plugs winning the cup...He thinks because SOME of the players got shuffled around from cup win 2 to 3 that the Pens showed it could be done with tinkering around the edges. You need a team...not a group of guys that just seem to adore each other according to Keefe. We are not a team...we don't even have the management calling us that..we are a group...and for good reason.

 

[Mess]

Consistency among the Leaf fan base when evaluating their GM performance seems to be a little squirrely an inconsistent at times. IMHO

Case in point

Lou Lam sent defenceman Roman Polak and centre Nick Spaling to San Jose for second-round picks in 2017 and 2018 as the Leafs were crashing to the bottom to draft Matthews. Then because of the quick turnaround of the team from last overall to playoff team the very next year, Lou Lam invested those same SJ 2nd rounders in Brian Boyle and Tomas Plekanec to prop up playoff teams with some veteran depth in consecutive trade deadine deals.

The two most recent transactions add more draft picks to a growing haul for the Leafs. Toronto could have as many as 12 selections in the 2016 draft with nine in the bank for 2017 (including three second-round picks potentially) and eight for 2018.

We to this day haven't heard the end of how the GM doomed the Leafs by his actions and wasted those 2 X self generated 2nd round draft picks.

Dubas however at the trade deadline tossed away 2021 1st and other picks on Nick Foligno (1st + 2 X 4th), Ben Hutton (5th), David Rittich (3rd), Riley Nash (7th). Wiped out nearly an entire draft year, and essentially leaving the Leafs with only their 2nd rounder in the top 125 picks, with no residual value beyond a 7 game first round embarrassing exit.

This however Dubas scorched earth approach to draft picks seems to be fine that Leafs are missing their 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 7th from 2021 and their 3rd, 4th 5th and 6th from 2022 leaving only 6 pick as Leafs current GM spends/mortgages 2 years into the future to prop up failing current teams. The only thing left remaining from all that draft carnage is goalie Jack Campbell as everything else if toss away UFA players not likely to return.

From my window I'm seeing a current GM that has spent the Leafs into Cap Hell with 3 of the 7th highest AAV contracts in the NHL, wiped out nearly 2 future draft years 2021 and 2022 to fuel his current team, while his teams under his new hand picked coach these past 2 years have lost to underdogs CBJ and MON in back to back playoffs as the heavy favourites. All this while gifted by inhering a team coming off a record setting franchise best mark for points and wins thanks to the last guy in charge before him.

 

[janesy12]

It comes down to accountability, for which the Leafs have none.
The only way to deal with this level of entitlement, is to remove the most entitled.
Marner and his father have caused issues the moment Matthews was drafted.
How do you head into next season with the same core that have embarrassed themselves monumentally, yet again.

This is one of the lowest points for the entire franchise. A 3-1 series lead against a team we were all told was terrible.
How do you change a few bottom 6 players and head into next season likely facing one of Boston, Tampa, or even Florida. Hell what about Montreal? They look good now.

You cannot head into next season with this same core, and don't try to justify it with examples of Tampa losing to Columbus. They had playoff success before that year, and certainly had it just after.
This core has had zero success, and the franchise as a whole has had very little in the past 54 years. Most notably, the last 17.
It's an utter joke. These players are pampered moreso than any other franchise in the entire NHL. Yet, when games get harder and they have to earn success, they falter and fold.

Say what you will about the Leafs teams of the past, but players like Sundin, Gilmour, Clark, Cujo, Belfour, Tucker, Roberts, Kaberle, etc never lost due to their work ethic. They fought until the bitter end.
This group does not want to work.

 

[Garthinater]

Wow that is insane!

Its hilarious how the dubas fan boys will tell you that lou is terrible and dubas is amazing while the results are so clear.

Maybe its time kyle and his club realize that corsi and advanced stats have very little meaning or value.

 

[justashadowof]

Add to that the lack of compete, the lack of push-back, the inability to play desperate hockey unless it's two minutes left in the third. Then maybe.
People are afraid of trading a player(s) and having them succeed elsewhere.

That's the conundrum. Dubas trades Marner to Team X retaining 25% of his salary for some useful parts none of which are a point per game player with the potential to win an Art Ross. Marner goes full MVP on Team X while none of the serviceable players acquired in return elevate the team to win a playoff round as the remaining expensive players still don't find their playoff mojo.

 

[ottomaddox]

Welcome to Leafs purgatory.
You keep losing but you can’t trade a core piece because you might not win.

There's enough of a body of work to go on though. If Marner plays for another team he might get his points in the Regular season. Then it'll be time for the post-season. He'll lose interest.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Lou picked up Palmieri (probably the best TDL acquisition) at the TDL and he is playing inspired hockey. I wonder if he plays the same way if Kyle had acquired him instead of Foligno.

Is it just me or why is every single guy that comes here...be it a 4th liner or otherwise that made his rep by being rough and tumble neutered virtually from the 2nd day onward?

I look at Muzzin..he used to hit guys fairly often...now? nothing..not one big hit in whole season or playoffs. He used to take tons of slap shots...now? he prefers the wrister most of the time. It's like whoever comes here just gets told not to do the things that made them an asset we would want.

Is it because a guy like Muzzin doesn't want to be the only guy hitting? Is it something else? It's like they are given a list of do's and don'ts when they get here. Even Foligno...I expected him to truck someone in his first game....nada..

 

[Garthinater]

I like the job Dubas has done overall. I thought adding Brodie and Bogosian were great moves. Our defensive core looked pretty solid and had depth this year.

Definately his absolute worst move was overpaying Marner. Even then it was a couple million extra or couple years too much. I've seen much worse contracts on the leafs. More bothered by the fact that he gave in to Marners ridiculous contract demands, than the cap hit itself.

I'd say Marner should be traded and/or Keefe gets fired before we fire Dubas.

We have lost in the first round each year under dubas.

Our prospect pool is ~20th.

We have like 6 picks over the next 2 years.

Has traded away 3 first round picks.

No cap space.

No team has won with 50% of their cap tied up in 4 forwrds.

No team has won the cup after losing 5 years in a row in the 1st round.

How can you like the overall job dubas has done?

Th nhl is a results oriented business. You don't get brownie points for moves that looked good.

 

[janesy12]

That's the conundrum. Dubas trades Marner to Team X retaining 25% of his salary for some useful parts none of which are a point per game player with the potential to win an Art Ross. Marner goes full MVP on Team X while none of the serviceable players acquired in return elevate the team to win a playoff round as the remaining expensive players still don't find their playoff mojo.

That's the risk.
Or, Leafs trade Marner for a couple of players that make the team better as a whole.
Marner has to find a way to play with a centre not named Matthews or Tavares, and doesn't match his production from the past few seasons.

 

[egd27]

Dubas thinks because they won a calder cup that they can repeat it in the NHL. Duby forgot that we have a salary cap in the NHL...he can't just pay ringers to play for his NHL team without worrying about the cap. Not only that...they took 7 games to beat the Stars AHL team...it wasn't like he steamrolled his way to the championship.

And perhaps I'm nitpicking, but does he realize that the on ice championship moment belongs to the players that were actually on the ice. Another example of his ego and inexperience.

 

[Notsince67]

Yeah I thought the playing golf was made up.
Pretty sure he had a spa day with Willie. Full facial, manicure, pedicure, finished off with a trip to the hairdresser.

Dont forget the heel scrapes

 

[ACC1224]

Dont forget the heel scrapes

It’s so stupid. I’m surprised the story hasn’t been changed to him having the tee time booked before game 7 was played.
Those going on about this, are they thinking the rest of the team sat in despair while he’s chugging Pink Whitney on the golf course?

 

[justashadowof]

That's the risk.
Or, Leafs trade Marner for a couple of players that make the team better as a whole.
Marner has to find a way to play with a centre not named Matthews or Tavares, and doesn't match his production from the past few seasons.

The reverse of this is also very relevant. How many goals has Tavares scored since that first season he played mostly Marner? Who has been Matthews' playmaking winger in the two seasons Matthews has scored at a 50-60 goal pace?

The risk in trading Marner only is the question of how does this magically awaken the playoff beast in Matthews where produces in the playoffs? As far as I'm concerned, Matthews has yet to show another gear above and beyond his regular season gear. It's weird: regular season Auston Matthews is a high flying sniping machine who is a handful for any opponent. Regular season Auston Matthews is playing at a high gear most of the time. Playoff season Auston Matthews is the same player as regular season Auston Matthews but every opponent has ratcheted up their defending and are playing at a higher gear.

 

[ToneDog]

And perhaps I'm nitpicking, but does he realize that the on ice championship moment belongs to the players that were actually on the ice. Another example of his ego and inexperience.

I believe it was Suzuki who does not celebrate goals much because his grandfather that told him to act like he has done it before. This picture shows the exact opposite. LOL. Sadly that win will be his legacy.

 

[ottomaddox]

We have lost in the first round each year under dubas.

Our prospect pool is ~20th.

We have like 6 picks over the next 2 years.

Has traded away 3 first round picks.

No cap space.

No team has won with 50% of their cap tied up in 4 forwrds.

No team has won the cup after losing 5 years in a row in the 1st round.

How can you like the overall job dubas has done?

They need a shake up.

They cannot possibly get a pass because Tavares experienced a concussion. His injury is an example of why you cannot structure a team like this. There's no possibly way to insert a replacement when his salary is worth 3 NHLers' salary.

The whole freaking thing is not working.

Keefe's tactics are flawed.
Dubas' architecture is not working. His cap management is short sighted and resembles fantasy hockey.
Shanny's decision to go with a rookie GM, rookie Coach, a tight cap situation, allowing Joe Thornton to play a major role with minor abilities.

Failure up and down.

Last year was regular season futility and David Aires embarrassment.

This year they folded and hung their heads after game 5.

The boos and jersey/waffle throwing is going to be relentless.

Once again this organization is dysfunctional. They have many players to sign, their cap situation is dire, their prospect pool is piss poor, and they've traded away all their draft picks.

Holy shit. What a mess.

 

[nuck]

And this is 1 of the big reasons why I want not only Dubas but, Shanahan gone.

On top of that, he seemed to have an expression on his face that he was dumbfounded and had no idea how to fix this mess.

TBH what can he possibly say except to start blaming which might have made some fans feel better but would not help? Actions not just words right? They are going to tinker because they are that close? Based on what he said I want him gone, I am tired of the apologies. Now I don't see this as blowing anything up because not every regime change means the lineup is turned inside out when a new GM comes in. It would be a major wake up call for everyone if his head, and or KDs rolled. However what he said in the presser doesn't necessarily indicate he won't do anything. Looking panicked and showing a knee jerk reaction would be cool to see but it would in no way make the club any better, and on TV he isn't just talking to the fans, the Board is watching this too.

But the speeches can't really be all they are considering right? Real change and accountability is warranted in some form.

 

[ToneDog]

Consistency among the Leaf fan base when evaluating their GM performance seems to be a little squirrely an inconsistent at times. IMHO

Case in point

Lou Lam sent defenceman Roman Polak and centre Nick Spaling to San Jose for second-round picks in 2017 and 2018 as the Leafs were crashing to the bottom to draft Matthews. Then because of the quick turnaround of the team from last overall to playoff team the very next year, Lou Lam invested those same SJ 2nd rounders in Brian Boyle and Tomas Plekanec to prop up playoff teams with some veteran depth in consecutive trade deadine deals.

The two most recent transactions add more draft picks to a growing haul for the Leafs. Toronto could have as many as 12 selections in the 2016 draft with nine in the bank for 2017 (including three second-round picks potentially) and eight for 2018.

We to this day haven't heard the end of how the GM doomed the Leafs by his actions and wasted those 2 X self generated 2nd round draft picks.

Dubas however at the trade deadline tossed away 2021 1st and other picks on Nick Foligno (1st + 2 X 4th), Ben Hutton (5th), David Rittich (3rd), Riley Nash (7th). Wiped out nearly an entire draft year, and essentially leaving the Leafs with only their 2nd rounder in the top 125 picks, with no residual value beyond a 7 game first round embarrassing exit.

This however Dubas scorched earth approach to draft picks seems to be fine that Leafs are missing their 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 7th from 2021 and their 3rd, 4th 5th and 6th from 2022 leaving only 6 pick as Leafs current GM spends/mortgages 2 years into the future to prop up failing current teams. The only thing left remaining from all that draft carnage is goalie Jack Campbell as everything else if toss away UFA players not likely to return.

From my window I'm seeing a current GM that has spent the Leafs into Cap Hell with 3 of the 7th highest AAV contracts in the NHL, wiped out nearly 2 future draft years 2021 and 2022 to fuel his current team, while his teams under his new hand picked coach these past 2 years have lost to underdogs CBJ and MON in back to back playoffs as the heavy favourites. All this while gifted by inhering a team coming off a record setting franchise best mark for points and wins thanks to the last guy in charge before him.

All those picks for a handful of games from Foligno and some playoff insurance that turns out we did not need. LOL

But Dubas is a nice human being who cares for his players and deserves another shot.

 

[egd27]

There's enough of a body of work to go on though. If Marner plays for another team he might get his points in the Regular season. Then it'll be time for the post-season. He'll lose interest.

Or he goes the way of Kessel, Bozak, and (dare I say it?) Kadri. Or maybe even Martin or Komarov

Is it because a guy like Muzzin doesn't want to be the only guy hitting? Is it something else? It's like they are given a list of do's and don'ts when they get here.

Just spit balling, but he did just collect $7.3M in signing bonus in July and is owed another $5.5M in 3 weeks. Perhaps that's close to 13 million reasons to "lighten up" a little on your body.

 

[ottomaddox]

Or he goes the way of Kessel, Bozak, and (dare I say it?) Kadri. Or maybe even Martin or Komarov

I honestly don't know the answer, but part of it is his style of play (passing) paired with Matthews (shooting). It was so predictable and easy to defend. If TOR keeps Marner they better figure out how to use him.

 

[sparxx87]

And perhaps I'm nitpicking, but does he realize that the on ice championship moment belongs to the players that were actually on the ice. Another example of his ego and inexperience.

There’s an even funnier one of him bent over with clenched fists like he just scored the winning goal.

This was another that was on my list of ‘wtf’ moments.

 

[4thline]

Once again this organization is dysfunctional. They have many players to sign, their cap situation is dire, their prospect pool is piss poor, and they've traded away all their draft picks.

I think that questioning the core / cap structure and tripling down on them is warranted, but a lot of this is angst creep.

Too many players to sign / cap situation - fixed with one trade
Prospect Pool - generally seen as middle of the pack league wide, no true stars, but deep, and likely better than it's ever been in the cap era outside of a 1 year window when both Marner/Nylander were prospects.
Draft picks- next two years look bleak, but last year definitely happened. Over 2020, 2021, 2022, our 3 year draft capital relative to normal is

-1x 1st
Full 2nd's
-2x 3rd's
-1x 4th
-1x 5th
+1x 6th
+1x 7th

With two full years of potential retool trades and draft day trade backs to normalize it.


If Dubas were fired today the state of the prospect/pool draft capital is the least of my worries. Fixing the cap is easy enough with one trade. The only fear long term is whether AM/MM are the real deal.

 

[TheDoldrums]

And perhaps I'm nitpicking, but does he realize that the on ice championship moment belongs to the players that were actually on the ice. Another example of his ego and inexperience.

So weird how the last three Cup winning GMs were also so full of ego and inexperience to think they had a right to celebrate with the team they constructed.

There's a lot of legit criticisms of Dubas but stuff like this is just pathetic.

 

[Notsince67]

It’s so stupid. I’m surprised the story hasn’t been changed to him having the tee time booked before game 7 was played.
Those going on about this, are they thinking the rest of the team sat in despair while he’s chugging Pink Whitney on the golf course?

Personally, I wouldn't even have a problem if he did. You would think by the offense people take that they think hockey players should mimic Opis Dei fanatics who self flagelate to remove sin.

 

[WTFMAN99]

I don't see how people are still buying the crap Shanny and Dubas are selling.

 

[sparxx87]

So weird how the last three Cup winning GMs were also so full of ego and inexperience to think they had a right to celebrate with the team they constructed.

There's a lot of legit criticisms of Dubas but stuff like this is just pathetic.

Did you not notice that they’re not the same trophy?

Three of them are in a salary cap league, the other is Kyle Dubas.