Fire Shanahan/Dubas (Yay or Nay)

[Notsince67]

Mitch felt so bad about losing and performing so poorly that he golfed the next day
Shit I was bummed for days

Fake news coming from you like usual.

 

[Trapper]

This guy should have been motivated to reward his dumb GM who bent over and overpaid him to the tune of millions and gave him enough money up front to set him up for life. The GM then goes all in on this team and he and Matty lay golden eggs. Leafs fans are still seething over the loss, especially after watching the Habs dismantle the Jets in 4.

I find it ironic that the 2 teams playing NY/Boston have lost a franchise center in Tavares, a quality top 4 D to career ending injury in Boychuk, traded players like Thornton,Kessel,Seguin,Wheeler,Hamilton and we are worried about trading a winger to build a better balanced team that can compete in 4 rounds.

Especially a winger who has struggled not once, not twice but 3 playoff s nie and isn’t a natural goal scorer to begin with.

And even that may not be so bad but the comments of not engaged, not ready, miss my COVID friends, not going to change anything just sinks it for me more than the other stuff. Wrong, wrong attitude.

This is a quote from Chara back in the day:
"It comes to personal sacrifices you have to make or are willing to give up," said Chara, speaking specifically about Kessel and Seguin. "And it's not always easy to do. I know they are good people. Obviously, really talented, great players. But sometimes you do have to make sacrifices and be willing to do -- or not to do -- certain things. And perhaps it was maybe harder than they thought it would be, and ... it didn't work."

Not everything works because you draft in 14,15,16 bam contending team.
Sometimes you need to alter the team, the core, the balance, the fight.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

And this is 1 of the big reasons why I want not only Dubas but, Shanahan gone.

On top of that, he seemed to have an expression on his face that he was dumbfounded and had no idea how to fix this mess.

That's probably because he doesn't have any idea on how to fix this mess he created. This is on Shanny more than anyone IMO. He forced out Lou because he was afraid his Pet project was going to flee to another team and bring all his super analytics with him. He seems to have become a pacifist in his old age. Maybe the run at Player safety horrified him and made him repent his previous ways. All I know is...he keeps citing Detroit and washington saying it takes a long time to win. I say to him...what about the NY rangers and San Jose? Did they win anything? .... So it's not automatic that you will just learn to win and away you go. Nothing is guaranteed.

 

[ToneDog]

I find it ironic that the 2 teams playing NY/Boston have lost a franchise center in Tavares, a quality top 4 D to career ending injury in Boychuk, traded players like Thornton,Kessel,Seguin,Wheeler,Hamilton and we are worried about trading a winger to build a better balanced team that can compete in 4 rounds.

Especially a winger who has struggled not once, not twice but 3 playoff s nie and isn’t a natural goal scorer to begin with.

And even that may not be so bad but the comments of not engaged, not ready, miss my COVID friends, not going to change anything just sinks it for me more than the other stuff. Wrong, wrong attitude.

This is a quote from Chara back in the day:
"It comes to personal sacrifices you have to make or are willing to give up," said Chara, speaking specifically about Kessel and Seguin. "And it's not always easy to do. I know they are good people. Obviously, really talented, great players. But sometimes you do have to make sacrifices and be willing to do -- or not to do -- certain things. And perhaps it was maybe harder than they thought it would be, and ... it didn't work."

Not everything works because you draft in 14,15,16 bam contending team.
Sometimes you need to alter the team, the core, the balance, the fight.

Seguin did get it last year when he played with a serious injury. Maybe Mitch will get it down the road as well but that cap hit pretty much puts it on the backs of the 4 amigos. They preferred money over a better supporting cast. One of the 4 needs to be moved to send a message.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

They should, but, firing Keefe would be Dubas acknowledgement that he chose the wrong guy. I don’t think Dubas even sees it. I think he’s probably found some obscure anomaly in the stats and feels like this was just ‘unlucky’ again.

Someome made a great point about the top line that their fancy stats looked good, so they likely think the line played well and didn’t need to be shuffled.

Dubas thinks because they won a calder cup that they can repeat it in the NHL. Duby forgot that we have a salary cap in the NHL...he can't just pay ringers to play for his NHL team without worrying about the cap. Not only that...they took 7 games to beat the Stars AHL team...it wasn't like he steamrolled his way to the championship.

 

[Trapper]

Seguin did get it last year when he played with a serious injury. Maybe Mitch will get it down the road as well but that cap hit pretty much puts it on the backs of the 4 amigos. They preferred money over a better supporting cast. One of the 4 needs to be moved to send a message.

Not just a message. Its about the Maple Leafs, the compete, the success, the balance.
This isn’t just a one of decision.
Dubas tried the can and will and it became tried but not.

 

[ACC1224]

Seguin did get it last year when he played with a serious injury. Maybe Mitch will get it down the road as well but that cap hit pretty much puts it on the backs of the 4 amigos. They preferred money over a better supporting cast. One of the 4 needs to be moved to send a message.

Can we trust the GM to make the right move though? It’s a scary premise, IMO.

 

[ShaneFalco]

He really should have stayed in his room and wept. Seems to be the preferred method of some.

I don't care who you are, you lose AGAIN in the playoffs in the first round, under-perform, fail to score a goal on the PP all year and into the playoffs and make 11 mill - maybe not a wise PR move to go out golfing the day after being eliminated. But he obviously gives no f***s

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

At least we can console ourselves with the fact that while Dubas dazzles the league with his 5d chess, Lou Lam continues to drive the Isles to the gutter.

For me I give the management another kick at it unless they decide to trade Marner or Nylander. If that’s the case we can’t trust him to make a good deal there and it’s too important to the franchise.

That's actually a good point. Why should we let a guy like Dubas make a huge trade and screw that up on top of it all? Better to see them flounder next year where we have our first Rd pick and then fire them all at the end of the season.

 

[ToneDog]

Can we trust the GM to make the right move though? It’s a scary premise, IMO.

Just as well they stand pat another year, and revist next year if the sh1t the bed again in the playoffs or worse, fail to make the playoffs. That would be proof once and for all that Dubas is part of the problem.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

He has very basic degree from Brock and no high level experience as a player, coach or official.

He may be well spoken but in the hockey world, he’s not smart. He’s uneducated and lacks basic understanding of the fundamentals.

Pookie posted that article that should tell anyone all they need to know - loaded with direct quotes, he arrogantly thinks he can re-invent a wheel, keeps betting his career and image on it, yet keeps failing in spectacular fashion.

John Chayka says hello from the depths of analytics hell. How did that work out for the genius? They practically have to blow up that team thanks to what Chayka did.

 

[ACC1224]

Fake news coming from you like usual.

Yeah I thought the playing golf was made up.
Pretty sure he had a spa day with Willie. Full facial, manicure, pedicure, finished off with a trip to the hairdresser.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Yup, did exactly what many wanted Babcock to do with the young guns, I guess the gud pro knew something about player deployment?

I hated Babs when he was here. Not so much because of his coaching...just his general arrogance is what turned me off. In saying that, I also am starting to appreciate a lot of the things he used to say. I think I didn't appreciate them as much at the time they were being said much like a son doesn't listen to his father when he is young..because he knows it all already. Seems to be the same thing with Babs. He knew you couldn't win with all these tiny dancers figure skating out there...but he at least tried to get across some points like telling players they had to earn their playing time..(look at Sandin...already PP1) and not gassing your top players during the season so they are ready to go. He took things a bit far sometimes with the playing time and being rigid...but after he left I started appreciating him a lot more.

 

[Trapper]

Just as well they stand pat another year, and revist next year if the sh1t the bed again in the playoffs or worse, fail to make the playoffs. That would be proof once and for all that Dubas is part of the problem.

I don’t know how much more proof people need.
Spent half our cap on 4 forwards. Then required to trade away all our depth to support his boy band, traded away all our picks to get guys like Owen Nolan (I mean Foligno) and past the prime of Thornton etc.
With zero success in the playoffs to lesser competition each time and an easy division/half season to boot.

I mean what’s left for an encore?

 

[justashadowof]

Dubas said in constructing his roster — now free of rugged characters like Matt Martin, Leo Komarov and Roman Polak — he looks at the Atlantic Division rivals first.
“For whatever reason, that takes on a life of its own — the whole ‘toughness’ question. I look at Tampa Bay, they’re eight or nine points ahead of us now, and they built their team their way. I understand it’s at every level, whether it’s been Sault Ste. Marie or the Marlies, it’s been the same question,” Dubas said.
“I don’t buy it, myself. I know that there are a lot of pundits that say you have to have it, but I look at the teams that have had success, and I don’t think bringing in one big person is going to change our culture — and it’s not going to have us carry on with the process we’ve started.
“We want to have skill, we want to be fast, and we want to be competitive. I don’t really think that the way that the league is going that having someone that can come in and fight or anything like that is going to change that. We’ve got a way that we want to play, and we’re just going to carry on with that. In the end, people will judge whether it was effective.”

When I read that I not only hear the arrogance of believing he knows better than everybody else, I read the contempt for the conventional wisdom of hockey people.

Now that he has caved and attempted to go with a more traditional approach on the fly this season that failed spectacularly, where does he go from here? Historically a GM in this position has to double down on the forced team alterations through trade overpayments and free agent signings. The Leafs' decade we were all hoping we were reliving was the 1960's. Turns out that it's probably the 1970's. As former boy wonder GM Jim Gregory was losing a grip on a competitive team in the late '70's there were 2 desperation moves: 2 1st's and Errol Thompson for Dan Maloney and Randy Carlyle and George Ferguson for Dave Burrows. It can get ugly, I hope it doesn't.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

“I don’t buy it, myself. I know that there are a lot of pundits that say you have to have it, but I look at the teams that have had success, and I don’t think bringing in one big person is going to change our culture — and it’s not going to have us carry on with the process we’ve started.

See...right there is the tone deafness we are talking about. Nobody wants a knuckle dragger...we just want guys who are not so afraid to get hit that we have 3 puck over the glass penalties in ONE playoff game. When most of us talk about a tough team...we don't mean fighting. We had the great enforcer Simmonds who did sweet $%#$# -all for us. That is exactly what we don't want. We want a team that is like Montreal...they don't have a fighter...but they play way tougher than us.

If he doesn't even understand the definition of toughness...how can he fix it?

 

[ToneDog]

I don’t know how much more proof people need.
Spent half our cap on 4 forwards. Then required to trade away all our depth to support his boy band, traded away all our picks to get guys like Owen Nolan (I mean Foligno) and past the prime of Thornton etc.
With zero success in the playoffs to lesser competition each time and an easy division/half season to boot.

I mean what’s left for an encore?

Agree but if you look at the poll, more than 50% support these clowns, as does the board. Seriously, it boggles the mind.

 

[sparxx87]

When I read that I not only hear the arrogance of believing he knows better than everybody else, I read the contempt for the conventional wisdom of hockey people.

Now that he has caved and attempted to go with a more traditional approach on the fly this season that failed spectacularly, where does he go from here? Historically a GM in this position has to double down on the forced team alterations through trade overpayments and free agent signings. The Leafs' decade we were all hoping we were reliving was the 1960's. Turns out that it's probably the 1970's. As former boy wonder GM Jim Gregory was losing a grip on a competitive team in the late '70's there were 2 desperation moves: 2 1st's and Errol Thompson for Dan Maloney and Randy Carlyle and George Ferguson for Dave Burrows. It can get ugly, I hope it doesn't.

This is my biggest concern; how many dumb moves will he make to try and save his job? How many more draft picks will he trade for rentals to replace the bottom of the bin free agents that didn’t work out? And how many extras for salary retention because he doesn’t have the cap space to effectively address the needs?

I think it could get a lot worse before it gets better. Hope I’m wrong.

 

[sparxx87]

See...right there is the tone deafness we are talking about. Nobody wants a knuckle dragger...we just want guys who are not so afraid to get hit that we have 3 puck over the glass penalties in ONE playoff game. When most of us talk about a tough team...we don't mean fighting. We had the great enforcer Simmonds who did sweet $%#$# -all for us. That is exactly what we don't want. We want a team that is like Montreal...they don't have a fighter...but they play way tougher than us.

If he doesn't even understand the definition of toughness...how can he fix it?

This is a huge disconnect with him and many of his fans in here; toughness doesn’t mean fighting and physical doesn’t mean hitting.

You can play physical and hard contact hockey in traffic or down low and never throw an actual body check. You can fight through punishment in front of the net to score greasy goals without dropping your gloves.

Your last line is why I’ve dismissed him from the start. Very tough to understand this stuff unless you’ve played hockey or spent years watching the playoffs and recognize what works. He didn’t make it out of minor hockey and based on the moves he made after the Bruins/Blues cup finals, I don’t think he watches the playoffs, either.

 

[justashadowof]

I don’t know how much more proof people need.
Spent half our cap on 4 forwards. Then required to trade away all our depth to support his boy band, traded away all our picks to get guys like Owen Nolan (I mean Foligno) and past the prime of Thornton etc.
With zero success in the playoffs to lesser competition each time and an easy division/half season to boot.

I mean what’s left for an encore?

What hasn't happened yet is trading away the genuine up and comers like Sandin and Robertson to win that elusive playoff round. I'll give him credit for that at least.

Here, I'll also cut him some more slack. I'm not sure what he could do more than acquire a Foligno and a Nash and sign oldsters with the corner he painted himself into. That was the play to see if adding some competitive muscle and vets aching to win could awaken some latent championship level compete in the Big Four. That compete didn't awaken. The entitlement is too set in now. Now, I'm not really sure what can be done other than dismantling the team from the top down. Or we can pretend each off-season for the next 4 years that this summer's additions and subtractions that aren't from the top of the lineup will be different this time.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Agree but if you look at the poll, more than 50% support these clowns, as does the board. Seriously, it boggles the mind.

"Stay the course"
The golf course
Losing is ok here. It's tolerated

 

[ShaneFalco]

I don’t know how much more proof people need.
Spent half our cap on 4 forwards. Then required to trade away all our depth to support his boy band, traded away all our picks to get guys like Owen Nolan (I mean Foligno) and past the prime of Thornton etc.
With zero success in the playoffs to lesser competition each time and an easy division/half season to boot.

I mean what’s left for an encore?

Add to that the lack of compete, the lack of push-back, the inability to play desperate hockey unless it's two minutes left in the third. Then maybe.
People are afraid of trading a player(s) and having them succeed elsewhere.

 

[ToneDog]

What hasn't happened yet is trading away the genuine up and comers like Sandin and Robertson to win that elusive playoff round. I'll give him credit for that at least.

Here, I'll also cut him some more slack. I'm not sure what he could do more than acquire a Foligno and a Nash and sign oldsters with the corner he painted himself into. That was the play to see if adding some competitive muscle and vets aching to win could awaken some latent championship level compete in the Big Four. That compete didn't awaken. The entitlement is too set in now. Now, I'm not really sure what can be done other than dismantling the team from the top down. Or we can pretend each off-season for the next 4 years that this summer's additions and subtractions that aren't from the top of the lineup will be different this time.

Lou picked up Palmieri (probably the best TDL acquisition) at the TDL and he is playing inspired hockey. I wonder if he plays the same way if Kyle had acquired him instead of Foligno.

 

[Trapper]

Add to that the lack of compete, the lack of push-back, the inability to play desperate hockey unless it's two minutes left in the third. Then maybe.
People are afraid of trading a player(s) and having them succeed elsewhere.

Welcome to Leafs purgatory.
You keep losing but you can’t trade a core piece because you might not win.

 

[justashadowof]

Lou picked up Palmieri (probably the best TDL acquisition) at the TDL and he is playing inspired hockey. I wonder if he plays the same way if Kyle had acquired him instead of Foligno.

He probably plays in a way to fit into the culture of this Leafs' team. So no.