Fire Shanahan/Dubas (Yay or Nay)

[YearsintheWilderness]

There was just something weird about absolutely refusing to take Marner off the PP, or trying WN with Matthews. The whole Thornton thing was questionable too. Is the coach afraid off his top players and old vets? Are we too worried about offending people?

It's almost beyond comprehension. Marner didn't score a power-play goal all season long. In the last 29 games of the season, the Leafs had a zero goal differential in 5 on 4 PP. Five goals scored, five short-handed goals given up.

It goes to the arrogance and stubbornness of Dubas. And since Keefe is Dubas's boy (He probably credits Dubas with giving him a second chance in life. After all, Keefe is a bit of an obedient follower...), he's going to adhere to the same rigid mindset.

Sunk-cost fallacy will continue to sink the Leafs.

 

[All Mod Cons]

The flat cap destroyed Kyles plan. The cap last season should have been 83-83.5 and 85-86+ entering this season. Problem is Kyle pretending that it hasn't changed.

We have an 11mil 2nd line centre. Surely everyone can see the issue there?

 

[All Mod Cons]

There was just something weird about absolutely refusing to take Marner off the PP, or trying WN with Matthews. The whole Thornton thing was questionable too. Is the coach afraid off his top players and old vets? Are we too worried about offending people?

Of course we are. How many times do we move a player because they're sad their not playing.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

It's almost beyond comprehension. Marner didn't score a power-play goal all season long. In the last 29 games of the season, the Leafs had a zero goal differential in 5 on 4 PP. Five goals scored, five short-handed goals given up.

It goes to the arrogance and stubbornness of Dubas. And since Keefe is Dubas's boy (He probably credits Dubas with giving him a second chance in life. After all, Keefe is a bit of an obedient follower...), he's going to adhere to the same rigid mindset.

Sunk-cost fallacy will continue to sink the Leafs.

For all these guys talk about analytics da most obvious ones including one you note above and 50% of CAP on 4 forwards get completely ignored .. well those ones we HOPE and PRAY we break da mould and overcome each .. dream on boys and girls .. dream on .. facts are we lose in playoffs to CLB and MTL because they have built playoff teams not regular season teams

 

[ItsFineImFine]

Seems like they've tied their fate to this core. Issue with this is that if next year we fail again which barring some big changes we will....that's another year used up from the only 3 remaining years of Matthews as of now.

Where's the sense of urgency? We only have Matthews for a few more years possibly, JT as well, Nylander will get closer to 30 and start to decline as his game is speed dependant, same with Brodie and Muzzin will be banged up by then. This is why the changes have to come this summer, this window is a lot shorter than people realize and if Dubas and Shanny are just staying the course then by the time they realize it's too late, you're already at the iceberg.

 

[axlrose87]

Of course Hyman won’t give one single cent for a discount. No one else did. In fact, Dubas gave even more than required to keep people “happy”.
Now we have a culture of mercenaries trying to extract anything they can. And another group of country club residents basking in their inflated deals.
This core is poisoned beyond repair.
Pick one and trade him or the poison spreads.

 

[The Legend]

Lou >>> Dubas don't insult the sport by comparing the two. Come on man, stop being such a homer

Lou's excellent moves include

Acquiring and Signing Pageau to a long-term deal. If you think Philip Danult was a Selke level player taking Matthews and Marner's lunch money, you'd call the cops with what Pageau an incredible playoff performer would do to the pair

Signing Robin Lehner, helping rehabilitate him into a Vezina level goalie before deciding to move on and not sign him long-term. Lehner had a strong 2020 but sucks this year. Instead, Lou got Varlamov signed 4 years at a 5M contract, with Varlamov having a Vezina level season this year posting a .929 helping the islanders make the playoffs.

Re-signing Brock Nelson and Jordan Eberle, two 50-60 point players on the Islanders to fair UFA deals with both being strong for them in the playoffs. Lou is very strong in contract negotiations and is able to keep the guys he values as RFA or UFAs

Trading a 1st+ trash for Palmeiri and Zajac, giving the islanders incredible depth across the board. Pamleri has 5 pts in 8 games in the playoffs with 4 goals and has won the islanders games, while zajac has been a smart veteran forward who has been a solid depth option for the isles.

Matt Barzal and Ryan Pulock both signed to bridge deals to allow them to compete for this and next year giving them the ability to retain and add talent as the season moved along. Got his young key players to take fair deals, putting the team first despite everyone saying that no star RFA signs a bridge deal

Drafted two big impact players for the future and current good contributors in Wahlstrom and Dobson. Both are really talented and huge future pieces on the Islanders which were both brought in under Lou

He was also the one who convinced Trotz to come in and coach there, made sure to retain players which fit Trotz style and system and quickly did what he did on the leafs in establishing and correcting the cultural problem the islanders had.

He isn't perfect as evident by the Komorov contract and Toews deal (though he got 2 seconds and had to make moves to fit the cap issues left by having Ladd signed under the previous regime) yet he is still one of the best in the NHL and has had his team win 5 series since joining the Islanders with a potential 6th one possible if they beat the bruins

Dubas tenure has been a failure results-wise, though he has made solid moves and isn't as bad as some belief. However, Lou is a top 5 GM in the league right now and that is something Dubas is not. Leaf fans can continue to stay salty and mock Lou, but his teams will continue to perform and win games in Spring.

Lou's excellent moves include resigning Garth Snow's players to contracts.

Oh he also traded a first for two guys who had 6 points combined in 30 games.

He isn't perfect as evident by the terrible Komorov contract which directly led to the cap issues that caused the terrible Toews deal.

But the Islanders have won some rounds so he and every other hockey ops person are top 5 in the league by osmosis.

 

[DuklaNation]

An accurate assessment. I think this applies to the front office as well.

 

[socko]

Spezza gave a hell of a discount, so I wouldn't say nobody. But yeah, something is broken, and his name is Dubas.

 

[cannucky]

pick 2 trade 1 and waive the other see if anybody wants him at his inflated price , fire the coach and GM and see how the locker room changes . Torts is available , sign him to a 2 or 3 year deal with total control over the room and the bench , bet the culture evolves pretty damn fast .

 

[stickty111]

Close this thread. We don't need the same thread saying the same thing using different and mocking words.

 

[Captain14]

Listening to what they were saying, sounds like they intend to keep the core intact and just swap in new spare parts.
I'm anticipating another 1st round loss to one of Tampa or Boston in 2022.

Or missing the playoffs entirely.
That should be the swan song of our current management group.

 

[hamzarocks]

Lou's excellent moves include resigning Garth Snow's players to contracts.

Oh he also traded a first for two guys who had 6 points combined in 30 games.

He isn't perfect as evident by the terrible Komorov contract which directly led to the cap issues that caused the terrible Toews deal.

But the Islanders have won some rounds so he and every other hockey ops person are top 5 in the league by osmosis.

Getting guys Snow got to sign at a fair and affordable rate is the sign of a great GM

He came in having no real relation with Eberle, Nelson, Lee but he quickly got them to buy into his vision and got them signed back.

He overpaid Lee by 1M and 2 years but he was their captain and a UFA so he had to keep the dude.

Komorov only makes 3M the reason they had to trade toews was b/c of the Andrew LaDd contract which Garth Snow the previous GM also signed toews was there #4D and they didn't have a spot for him higher as Pelch was and is a better player then him still and they have Dobson who's going to be their 1D for the future who needed minutes

Can you really throw shade at Lou for getting Palmeiri who has 4 goals and 1 assist when our Big deadline addition was foligno who absolutely ended up sucking for us.

Lou's team continue to deliver and win rounds. The majority in 2018 had them ready to be a bottom 5 team after JT left. They made the playoffs yet people said it was a fluke and hot goaltending. 2 years later they've continued to make the playoffs and have won 4 rounds since.

Lou has completely transformed the islanders who were a joke of a team in 2018 and missed the playoffs narrowly in 2017. He has built a top 7 team in the NHL and just needs to bring in one goal scoring sniper to make them a legit cup contending team with the nucleus already being there and their players having a winning mentality and culture

 

[Mickey Marner]

7) On the Mitch Marner power-play report, I think Elliotte Friedman made a good point on the MLHS podcast about there maybe being quite a bit of nuance to the situation (was it more about comfort/preference than an outright refusal, was there an element of tip-toeing around strong-willed and highly-paid/respected players? etc.).
But I will say this, and I thought this before this Marner controversy: Either some form of internal politics was playing a role with the stubbornness around the roles (Thornton’s and Marner’s, in particular) that led to the incessant predictability, or someone associated with the power play on the coaching staff genuinely thought there was no issue, it would work itself out in time, and in the process, allowed the man advantage to play a major part in derailing the team’s Cup chances — in a season that represented the organization’s best shot at a Cup since the Mats Sundin era (given the team’s overall play and path through the playoffs). One of these has to be true, and the latter is a borderline fireable offense.
8) The buck stops with Sheldon Keefe there, too. Even if Manny Malhotra was willing to die on the “the Marner glued to the half-wall, Thornton in the bumper” hill, I won’t accept throwing an assistant under the bus for this level of ineptitude. A head coach has to step in and sort it out once it reaches a clear crisis point, as it did from March 3 onward — and I’d imagine Keefe did step in but ultimately failed to rectify the situation. If it’s that he couldn’t muster up the courage to sit Marner down or move him into an entirely different role, he can’t be afraid of his best players or his most respected veterans (in Joe’s case).

I am also not sure how you go a full 56 games without playing Nylander with Matthews and Hyman for a game or two at any point — in a division the Leafs more or less ran away with, no less — which left Keefe feeling as though he had to ride the horse that got him there even when the duo was out of ideas in Game 6 & 7. When Marner was given the night off in the final game of the season, it was Adam Brooks who went up next to Matthews in his place.

https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2021/06/04/10-postmortem-thoughts-toronto-maple-leafs/

They probably will try to dump the blame on Malhotra as if it's not their fault that he was given the opportunity in the first place. Though there's also a chance he's back next season as this team has no concept of accountability. They'll just hide behind platitudes and the Royal We to avoid taking any individual responsibility. 'We need to start on time.' 'We're building a program.' 'We like our core group.' 'We have great leaders in our room.'

Same shit, different day.

 

[sparxx87]

Lou's excellent moves include resigning Garth Snow's players to contracts.

Oh he also traded a first for two guys who had 6 points combined in 30 games.

He isn't perfect as evident by the terrible Komorov contract which directly led to the cap issues that caused the terrible Toews deal.

But the Islanders have won some rounds so he and every other hockey ops person are top 5 in the league by osmosis.

You don’t watch the Islanders. What do you know?

Komorov is playing on their top line. In the second round. He played important minutes for them all the way to the conference finals last year.

People hammering on this specific contract are so out of touch.

 

[sparxx87]

Great stuff from @hamzarocks !!

Add in their new billion dollar building in Belmont park, in the middle of a gold mine that is Nassau county and most Islander fans will tell you they’re in the best spot they’ve been since the 80’s.

That organization is trending upwards.

 

[FreeBird]

pick 2 trade 1 and waive the other see if anybody wants him at his inflated price , fire the coach and GM and see how the locker room changes . Torts is available , sign him to a 2 or 3 year deal with total control over the room and the bench , bet the culture evolves pretty damn fast .

This pampered bunch would never play for Torts

 

[JT AM da real deal]

An accurate assessment. I think this applies to the front office as well.

LOL yes except Dubie/Keefe which is another joke .. Babs and Shanny really took MLSE for a huge ride LOL

 

[sparxx87]

They probably will try to dump the blame on Malhotra as if it's not their fault that he was given the opportunity in the first place. Though there's also a chance he's back next season as this team has no concept of accountability. They'll just hide behind platitudes and the Royal We to avoid taking any individual responsibility. 'We need to start on time.' 'We're building a program.' 'We like our core group.' 'We have great leaders in our room.'

Same shit, different day.

Malhotra was a weird one. He was a defensive forward hired to coach the PP?

I think he could add to a coaching staff, but in his area of experience.

Odd. Another wtf?

 

[JT AM da real deal]

It is a 50/50 vote .. a completely divided fan base .. funny I have got same type of responses from my buds who sponsor team too on whether they re up next year and/or resell their tickets .. i am almost sure you are gonna see a big drop in Leaf revenues next season which may get offset by $$$ from US TV deal .. likely we drop down well below Habs, Rangers and Vegas next season on overall revenue

 

[axlrose87]

LOL yes except Dubie/Keefe which is another joke .. Babs and Shanny really took MLSE for a huge ride LOL

Hahaha fair enough.
We can’t overpay for a flawed core and then go bargain hunting for character and leadership.
Those things are expensive and should be expensive.

 

[sparxx87]

I’ve read you can sign coaches on Xbox NHL now - do they not have specialties or specific attributes? Or can you just stick them anywhere and it’ll work if they’re a high rating?

Asking for a friend.

 

[rocketman588]

LOL yes except Dubie/Keefe which is another joke .. Babs and Shanny really took MLSE for a huge ride LOL

Keefe and Dubas definitely make over 2 mil a year ( although I can't find it so not sure). You don't think that's at least above market value for two dudes who they got from the OHL?

They got Babcock off of two Olympic dubs and multiple Stanley cups of course he's going to get paid more then the dude who never won the OHL

 

[hamzarocks]

Great stuff from @hamzarocks !!

Add in their new billion dollar building in Belmont park, in the middle of a gold mine that is Nassau county and most Islander fans will tell you they’re in the best spot they’ve been since the 80’s.

That organization is trending upwards.

I feel the leafs can begin a similar upward trend if we get rid of the guy at the top in Shanny. Fire him bring in a respected and no-nonsense proven winner in Jim Rutherford for President. Dubas either buys into Rutherfords' vision for the organization or he quits/is fired.

Rutherford revamps the culture on the leafs and helps establish a sense of credibility and respect that we have lost since letting Lou leave. He can help Dubas out in his role and will show him how you can admit you f***ed up (like Rutherford has in the past) and go on to correct the issue by making a trade. When Rutherford came to the Pens, he quickly dealt James Neal a 3 year PPG+ and around 40ish goal winger who had chemistry with Malkin but was not productive in the playoffs and was a lazy player for Hornqvist a dude who was a better version of hyman.

Hornqvist went on to be huge for the pens in the two cups they won and was generally a 55+ point player with grit, and leadership which mattered as he was still in his prime and productive.

I loved Marner the person and the player but he is the man we need to move on from and get a similar balancing the roster type deal while using the excess cap space to fix the scoring depth problems from the previous two years.

Continuing to build stubbornly around 4 forwards who don't have the ability to elevate their games usually in the playoffs is not the way to go, and it will surely lead to a 6th 1st round exit.

Marner for an Extended Seth Jones + a speedy winger like Emil Robinson is the trade that could fix things for the leafs.

We have still 5 million for next year after the deal and can get a nice depth piece or 2 to provide offense come playoffs.

 

[Mickey Marner]

Malhotra was a weird one. He was a defensive forward hired to coach the PP?

I think he could add to a coaching staff, but in his area of experience.

Odd.

You never know with coaches, sometimes guys that were defensemen (Laviolette) coach an aggressive offense, and guys that were forwards (Lemaire) prefer an ultra conservative defense.

As a player, I was basically a Kasperi Kapanen clone and I found him to be a super aggravating player to watch. Sometimes when you take a step back from the game you get a different perspective.

In any case, our 50 million dollar powerplay was an embarrassment and heads need to role because of it.