Fire Shanahan/Dubas (Yay or Nay)

[Polaris1010]

If you have the time, you should read this article as well as the comments.


10 Postmortem Thoughts: Sober reflections on the Maple Leafs' early playoff exit, the Mitch Marner controversy, Jack Campbell's playoff, Zach Hyman's future & more | Maple Leafs Hotstove

Read like something from the Ballard era.

It is never nobody's fault in Leaf land.

The tradition continues.

 

[Boxscore]

I can't believe how much people are complaining about Tavares. There was almost universal jubilation when he chose, it was a no brainer of a signing.

It's not complaining about Tavares, it's looking at the big picture. As someone else said, the Leafs became obsessed with "making a splash" and were interested in Stamkos before Tavares. I don't think they thought it all through, and they openly stated -- "When you have a chance to get John Tavares, you do it and figure the rest out later." That sounds perfect until it's time to do the figuring out and ice a team with championship-caliber depth.

The blueprint was there -- the Pens, Caps, Hawks, Kings, Bolts, Avs all built from the ground up with drafted, homegrown talent. But the Leafs had a vision. We won't know if it was the right decision for another 5 years -- or maybe never -- but it seemed like an emotional purchase at the time.

To your point -- yes, mostly everyone was thrilled with the signing. That is certainly true. But some analyzed it through a hard-cap lens and had questions. I think mostly everyone, including Leafs management, believed the kids would be so thrilled with the signing that they would all give the Leafs hometown discounts. Everyone was wrong, including Shanny who said live on TV, "We brought John Tavares in so the other guys will need to take a little less to play for the Toronto Maple Leafs." Then all three of the kids took Dubas to the shed lol.

I think it's fair to suggest that they Leafs made an emotional, impulse buy. They wanted to buy a Stamkos and when they couldn't they bought a Tavares instead. I just wish they locked up the kids to lengthy extensions before they played the market, that's all.

 

[HellasLEAF]

All 3 should be fired.

I was worried this would happen.

Rookie President, GM and coach. The Leafs are the last place to be learning on the job.

The results are in they have built a dud. They have delivered to the Leaf fans the ultimate disgrace and kick in the nuts with this latest loss to the Habs which is inexcusable. Allowing them to carry on is more complacent loser mentality by Leafs ownership.

The fact they thought the team was good and could win come playoff time shows their inexperience and foolishness. As a poster mentioned above we are now on the clock with Matthews on this team. Time to put someone at the controls who understands the NHL game and how to win (it's not them).

 

[Gabriel426]

Yeah that'll happen.

Seriously though, I can't believe how much people are complaining about Tavares. There was almost universal jubilation when he chose, it was a no brainer of a signing.

Exactly.

 

[Boxscore]

Rookie President, GM and coach. The Leafs are the last place to be learning on the job.

I think this is valid.

I will say, listening to Shanahan yesterday, I feel he truly believes in his vision and plan. I also think Dubas proved that he is versatile to learn from some mistakes and address needs. I thought Dubas did a good job with player acquisitions so I can't rip him now. However, I haven't been impressed with Keefe since day 1 on the job, and I have less confidence after watching him coach last series.

At this point, I trust Dubas to work his hardest to acquire good players, but I think the organization backed themselves into a corner with the Keefe hire. If they fire him now, they "gave up too early on a young coach." If they continue to let him learn on the job for another 2 years without any net results, they've wasted the rest of Tavares' prime and the core is closer to leaving, or looking to once again break the bank. It's a no-win situation unless the Leafs win a Cup during Keefe's tenure.

 

[centipede2233]

One thing is clear, no matter what happens, firings, trades etc, the fan base is going to be split on almost anything that is done or not done, and the opinions will be strong. And that’s supported by this poll which is almost split. For the foreseeable future, this leafs board will be divided with a lot of debates, and heated discussion, that I know.

 

[TheDoldrums]

The fact they thought the team was good and could win come playoff time shows their inexperience and foolishness.

Yeah who thought the Leafs were good, aside from the gambling market, basically every analyst in the sport, every model, etc.

Who thought the Leafs were bad? Aside from some people here who would think that regardless of any move they made.

I've criticized management plenty but blaming them for thinking this team was good after that regular season is not a rational critique.

 

[hotpaws]

Yeah that'll happen.

Seriously though, I can't believe how much people are complaining about Tavares. There was almost universal jubilation when he chose, it was a no brainer of a signing.

what has JT ever accomplished to be above having his play and his value to the team discussed and evaluated ?

 

[Gabriel426]

Yeah who thought the Leafs were good, aside from the gambling market, basically every analyst in the sport, every model, etc.

Who thought the Leafs were bad? Aside from some people here who would think that regardless of any move they made.

I've criticized management plenty but blaming them for thinking this team was good after that regular season is not a rational critique.

I don’t think Dubas or Shanny misjudged the team.
Nobody expected Marner and AM to disappear in the playoffs.

 

[sparxx87]

Hence 'like Spezza".

The idea that free agency was voio if veteran leadership doesn't see like it would hold up to scrutiny. They could have also opted to make a trade instead of paying out that retirement contract to Marleau

What other players are like him and were available? A good two-way top 9 forward that can play all 3 fwd positions up and down the lineup before we consider intangibles is a pretty rare combination.

I don’t even like Marleau but there was sound logic in the signing, even if you didn’t like it. Third year was always going to be a stretch but still very manageable for 1 year with a player they like.

You can’t possibly be this ignorant.

 

[All Mod Cons]

I'd say a $6M 4th liner for 2 years is a problem no matter what when you're trying to compete

Are we trying to compete? Marleau could've played on the 4th line. We rushed the rebuild, which was probably our only shot at a real rebuild, and added an 11mil 2nd line centre. Think about that for a minute. We have an 11mil 2nd line centre. WTAF

 

[sparxx87]

There is no reason to wonder in this day of the internet. Chris Kunitz was available or Justin Williams for significantly less money. Babcock really liked Marleau for whatever reason.

https://thehockeywriters.com/2017-nhl-free-agent-signing-live-tracker/

Wasn’t Justin Williams Carolina or bust? I know Kunitz was on fumes at that point and a fraction of the player Marleau was, and neither can play centre which was important with Marleau and Bozak’s back problems being unpredictable.

Again, nobody loved the Marleau deal but @Menzinger has a habit of twisting what was a questionable decision with some logic to both sides into ‘everything Lamoriello did was bad’. The Islanders keep proving he has no idea what he’s talking about much less how to evaluate intangibles in a player or a team without good stats/appeal on paper yet he’s still here talking foolish.

 

[Gary Nylund]

It's not complaining about Tavares, it's looking at the big picture. As someone else said, the Leafs became obsessed with "making a splash" and were interested in Stamkos before Tavares. I don't think they thought it all through, and they openly stated -- "When you have a chance to get John Tavares, you do it and figure the rest out later." That sounds perfect until it's time to do the figuring out and ice a team with championship-caliber depth.

The blueprint was there -- the Pens, Caps, Hawks, Kings, Bolts, Avs all built from the ground up with drafted, homegrown talent. But the Leafs had a vision. We won't know if it was the right decision for another 5 years -- or maybe never -- but it seemed like an emotional purchase at the time.

To your point -- yes, mostly everyone was thrilled with the signing. That is certainly true. But some analyzed it through a hard-cap lens and had questions. I think mostly everyone, including Leafs management, believed the kids would be so thrilled with the signing that they would all give the Leafs hometown discounts. Everyone was wrong, including Shanny who said live on TV, "We brought John Tavares in so the other guys will need to take a little less to play for the Toronto Maple Leafs." Then all three of the kids took Dubas to the shed lol.

I think it's fair to suggest that they Leafs made an emotional, impulse buy. They wanted to buy a Stamkos and when they couldn't they bought a Tavares instead. I just wish they locked up the kids to lengthy extensions before they played the market, that's all.

I don't think it's at all accurate to call the Tavares signing an impulse buy. Free agents of that calibre almost never become available and when they do, almost everyone that can afford them wants them so unless every team acts out of emotion ...

The signing would also look a lot better today if not for covid. Let's be fair here, nobody saw that coming and it may have hurt us more than it hurt any other team considering it came right after we signed our guys to big contracts.

Anyhow that was a long time ago, what's done is done, what you're saying has some merit and I get your point but I just can't criticize this signing. Cheers!

 

[Trapper]

I don't think it's at all accurate to call the Tavares signing an impulse buy. Free agents of that calibre almost never become available and when they do, almost everyone that can afford them wants them so unless every team acts out of emotion ...

The signing would also look a lot better today if not for covid. Let's be fair here, nobody saw that coming and it may have hurt us more than it hurt any other team considering it came right after we signed our guys to big contracts.

Anyhow that was a long time ago, what's done is done, what you're saying has some merit and I get your point but I just can't criticize this signing. Cheers!

I have to hold Tavares a little accountable for the situation.
I have no problem trying to get all the money you can.
But he knew we had 3 core members that needed to get larger contracts and he wanted to win. It takes cap to win.
He could have accepted his number 9.1 mil a year. That would have helped the bar.

If he wanted the payday, he should have gone elsewhere. But what’s done is done.

 

[Gallagbi]

Are we trying to compete? Marleau could've played on the 4th line. We rushed the rebuild, which was probably our only shot at a real rebuild, and added an 11mil 2nd line centre. Think about that for a minute. We have an 11mil 2nd line centre. WTAF

Yes, we were trying to compete

 

[Garthinater]

Yes, we were trying to compete

Fooled me.

 

[ShaneFalco]

As posted in another thread. I'm on the fire them camp now

Dubas and Shanny have built a culture of losing. Where losing is ok because "the talent is there". Where heart and grit and effort can be instilled over time. Where filling out the rest of the roster with bargain players who will be the leaders and crashers and bangers to teach the core, is a good strategy. We'll get 'em next year!

 

[Thissiteisgarbage]

Listening to what they were saying, sounds like they intend to keep the core intact and just swap in new spare parts.
I'm anticipating another 1st round loss to one of Tampa or Boston in 2022.

 

[ShaneFalco]

7) On the Mitch Marner power-play report, I think Elliotte Friedman made a good point on the MLHS podcast about there maybe being quite a bit of nuance to the situation (was it more about comfort/preference than an outright refusal, was there an element of tip-toeing around strong-willed and highly-paid/respected players? etc.).
But I will say this, and I thought this before this Marner controversy: Either some form of internal politics was playing a role with the stubbornness around the roles (Thornton’s and Marner’s, in particular) that led to the incessant predictability, or someone associated with the power play on the coaching staff genuinely thought there was no issue, it would work itself out in time, and in the process, allowed the man advantage to play a major part in derailing the team’s Cup chances — in a season that represented the organization’s best shot at a Cup since the Mats Sundin era (given the team’s overall play and path through the playoffs). One of these has to be true, and the latter is a borderline fireable offense.
8) The buck stops with Sheldon Keefe there, too. Even if Manny Malhotra was willing to die on the “the Marner glued to the half-wall, Thornton in the bumper” hill, I won’t accept throwing an assistant under the bus for this level of ineptitude. A head coach has to step in and sort it out once it reaches a clear crisis point, as it did from March 3 onward — and I’d imagine Keefe did step in but ultimately failed to rectify the situation. If it’s that he couldn’t muster up the courage to sit Marner down or move him into an entirely different role, he can’t be afraid of his best players or his most respected veterans (in Joe’s case).

I am also not sure how you go a full 56 games without playing Nylander with Matthews and Hyman for a game or two at any point — in a division the Leafs more or less ran away with, no less — which left Keefe feeling as though he had to ride the horse that got him there even when the duo was out of ideas in Game 6 & 7. When Marner was given the night off in the final game of the season, it was Adam Brooks who went up next to Matthews in his place.

https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2021/06/04/10-postmortem-thoughts-toronto-maple-leafs/

 

[sxvnert]

Are we trying to compete? Marleau could've played on the 4th line. We rushed the rebuild, which was probably our only shot at a real rebuild, and added an 11mil 2nd line centre. Think about that for a minute. We have an 11mil 2nd line centre. WTAF

The flat cap destroyed Kyles plan. The cap last season should have been 83-83.5 and 85-86+ entering this season. Problem is Kyle pretending that it hasn't changed.

 

[ottomaddox]

The flat cap destroyed Kyles plan. The cap last season should have been 83-83.5 and 85-86+ entering this season. Problem is Kyle pretending that it hasn't changed.

Isn't their another lesson here?

Perhaps being prudent is a good idea. Other GMs do it all the time. Not every team has money to burn like TOR does, but that doesn't matter. There's a freaking salary cap! No team can afford mismanage player salaries.

 

[ToneDog]

They should seriously consider axing the whole coaching staff.

Hire Gallant, Boudreau and the coach who was fired by the Rangers.

 

[Trapper]

what has JT ever accomplished to be above having his play and his value to the team discussed and evaluated ?

JT follows the same trajectory as the core here.
9 years in NY only out of the 1st round once.
Left UFA.
What’s our record? Now he is a good player and it certainly not all on him because it takes a balanced team.

So NY had to readjust the core and have had more success because team.

Sometimes you need readjust the core when it’s stagnant. When the sum of the parts isn’t the best for playoffs or 4 rounds of success.

 

[ShaneFalco]

JT follows the same trajectory as the core here.
9 years in NY only out of the 1st round once.
Left UFA.
What’s our record? Now he is a good player and it certainly not all on him because it takes a balanced team.

So NY had to readjust the core and have had more success because team.

Sometimes you need readjust the core when it’s stagnant. When the sum of the parts isn’t the best for playoffs or 4 rounds of success.

Or in the Leafs case, you stick with the same core and lose in the first round year after year where your top line generates next to nothing and hope the team learns.

 

[ShaneFalco]

They should seriously consider axing the whole coaching staff.

Hire Gallant, Boudreau and the coach who was fired by the Rangers.

There was just something weird about absolutely refusing to take Marner off the PP, or trying WN with Matthews. The whole Thornton thing was questionable too. Is the coach afraid off his top players and old vets? Are we too worried about offending people?