Fire Shanahan/Dubas (Yay or Nay)

[sparxx87]

I think they brought Marleau in for his hockey. I mean he had 27 goals and 47 points that first year. I was never a fan of his because he's soft and was always soft, but that's a productive season. It's very hard to predict exactly when a guy will fall off a cliff. I don't see the Tavares contract aging any better, it could end up being much worse.

Yeah, I think they expected more of a 3-4M player in year 3 but it was a necessary add to get a player they thought helped their team.

Add Muzzin to ‘could be bad’ - turns 33 next year and injured two straight years. Signed for 5.5+ for 3 more years until 36.

 

[sparxx87]

You don't pay 18 million dollars for intangibles when you can add guys like Spezza for a fraction of that.

I think the Dallas Stars might have taken issue with the Leafs signing Spezza at that time.

No other comparable players were available that free agency.

 

[Menzinger]

I think the Dallas Stars might have taken issue with the Leafs signing Spezza at that time.

No other comparable players were available that free agency.

Hence 'like Spezza".

The idea that free agency was voio if veteran leadership doesn't see like it would hold up to scrutiny. They could have also opted to make a trade instead of paying out that retirement contract to Marleau

 

[socko]

I don't think Marleau was leaving San Jose for much less money. It sounds like it was a really close decision. When you compare that to Tavares, I think the Islanders offered him 8 x $11 which was better than our offer. I'm not sure I believe the San Jose offer but there was a rumor of more. Would he have taken less to play with the Leafs? We'll never know for sure but probably not. I'll give Lou credit for not raising his offer as I think it was really too high for Tavares already. We bailed him out big time.

 

[Dreakmur]

Johnsson was a waste of time but keeping Kapanen was the right call. We got a good return for him in the end as well.

We got a late first, Philip Hollander, and Joey Anderson.... minus the late first we gave up to move Marleau. I think we would have easily beat that return by moving them before signing them for over 3 million each.

 

[Stephen]

We got a late first, Philip Hollander, and Joey Anderson.... minus the late first we gave up to move Marleau. I think we would have easily beat that return by moving them before signing them for over 3 million each.

Well, the pick that went out was the 13th and the pick we recouped was the 15th, so we basically dropped 2 spots and got some loose change to have a Kapanen evaluation season...

 

[ToneDog]

The problem with Lou is his version of hockey is boring. If you don't care about that, there is no comparison between him and Dubas. Dubas can't hold his hockey bag.

Boring ? Are u watching their game currently in OT?

 

[socko]

Hence 'like Spezza".

The idea that free agency was void if veteran leadership doesn't see m like it would hold up to scrutiny. They could have also opted to make a trade instead of paying out that retirement contract to Marleau

There is no reason to wonder in this day of the internet. Chris Kunitz was available or Justin Williams for significantly less money. Babcock really liked Marleau for whatever reason.

https://thehockeywriters.com/2017-nhl-free-agent-signing-live-tracker/

 

[socko]

Boring ? Are u watching their game currently in OT?

Nope. Watching the other game. I don't like Boston or NYI.

 

[Boxscore]

But the Marleau contract was signed without the Tavares deal.

Exactly this.

 

[All Mod Cons]

Looking back, I'm going to have to give Lou a bit of a pass on the Marleau contract in isolation. Without knowing what his medium term plan for the organization and the post ELC futures of our Big 3, the third year was going to be a nuisance but not a franchise crippling one. What made it a bigger problem was we decided to go big game hunting in Tavares, which compounded the problem and used up the cap a little bit quicker than we could have imagined. The $11 million high bar also dragged up the value of everyone else. But even then, the Big 3 contracts were each a screw up in and of themselves. Maybe Dubas should have signed Nylander to the $6.9 million right away knowing he was a franchise piece anyway. And then lock up Mitch for similar money before tackling Matthews. Hindsight is 20/20.

Leafs Hour asked a good question. To what extent are the Leafs locked into the Big 4 and they can't get out of it?

I've said that time and time again. The Marleau contract wasn't going to be a huge issue. Until we signed Tavares. Then it became a huge issue.

 

[Gallagbi]

I've said that time and time again. The Marleau contract wasn't going to be a huge issue. Until we signed Tavares. Then it became a huge issue.

I'd say a $6M 4th liner for 2 years is a problem no matter what when you're trying to compete

 

[Boxscore]

I've said that time and time again. The Marleau contract wasn't going to be a huge issue. Until we signed Tavares. Then it became a huge issue.

Of course. The Leafs were up-and-comers and shocked the hockey world with a stunner against the Caps. Then they reversed course and decided to go all-in. The Tavares signing was always bitter-sweet for me, because as a human being, John Tavares is as likeable as it gets -- he's also a very good player. But bringing in an outsider for top dollar completely destroyed our cap and killed any chance of the kids giving us a hometown discount. This was supposed to be Matthews' team -- it belonged to him, Rielly, Nylander, Marner and the homegrown pups. Suddenly the whole script was flipped and it became all about Johnny -- they gave him the C and made it his team. Overnight, the entire identity of the team changed... the exact moment we were trending upward... the "right way."

Tavares is still wonderful, but looking back, I still think the Leafs maybe should have left the open market alone, be it Tavares or anyone. The Tavares signing will always be complicated to me.

 

[Gallagbi]

Of course. The Leafs were up-and-comers and shocked the hockey world with a stunner against the Caps. Then they reversed course and decided to go all-in. The Tavares signing was always bitter-sweet for me, because as a human being, John Tavares is as likeable as it gets -- he's also a very good player. But bringing in an outsider for top dollar completely destroyed our cap and killed any chance of the kids giving us a hometown discount. This was supposed to be Matthews' team -- it belonged to him, Rielly, Nylander, Marner and the homegrown pups. Suddenly the whole script was flipped and it became all about Johnny -- they gave him the C and made it his team. Overnight, the entire identity of the team changed... the exact moment we were trending upward... the "right way."

Tavares is still wonderful, but looking back, I still think the Leafs maybe should have left the open market alone, be it Tavares or anyone. The Tavares signing will always be complicated to me.

They were always looking to add a star. They went after Stamkos the week before drafting Matthews

 

[Dreakmur]

Well, the pick that went out was the 13th and the pick we recouped was the 15th, so we basically dropped 2 spots and got some loose change to have a Kapanen evaluation season...

We got loose change when we could have got a lot more.

 

[Dreakmur]

I'd say a $6M 4th liner for 2 years is a problem no matter what when you're trying to compete

Marleau was never a 4th liner here.

 

[Brown Dog]

As I recall, the Leafs were flush with cap space the off season they signed Marleau and I think it was burning a hole in their pockets. They saw Marleau as a guy who checked a lot of boxes and they wanted to spend what they had to add an impact UFA.

My sense was always that they saw the third year as just the cost of doing business and they'd figure that out down the road. Obviously that third year became a huge problem.

 

[Gallagbi]

Marleau was never a 4th liner here.

By usage? You're correct. By play? I stand by my statement.

I put Nylander, AM, Marner, Tavares, Kadri, Brown, Hyman, Kap, AJ all ahead of him. That was year 2 of 3.

First year he was fine, but the bottom fell out after.

 

[CelticDruid]

If you have the time, you should read this article as well as the comments.


https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2021/06/04/10-postmortem-thoughts-toronto-maple-leafs/

 

[Dreakmur]

By usage? You're correct. By play? I stand by my statement.

I put Nylander, AM, Marner, Tavares, Kadri, Brown, Hyman, Kap, AJ all ahead of him. That was year 2 of 3.

First year he was fine, but the bottom fell out after.

He was not significantly worse than any of Brown, Johnsson, or Kapanen. I don’t necessarily disagree that they were all better, but it was close... and the team had ridiculous depth that season, so a ranking wouldn’t be a true representation of where a lot of those guys should land in a lineup.

 

[Gabriel426]

Of course. The Leafs were up-and-comers and shocked the hockey world with a stunner against the Caps. Then they reversed course and decided to go all-in. The Tavares signing was always bitter-sweet for me, because as a human being, John Tavares is as likeable as it gets -- he's also a very good player. But bringing in an outsider for top dollar completely destroyed our cap and killed any chance of the kids giving us a hometown discount. This was supposed to be Matthews' team -- it belonged to him, Rielly, Nylander, Marner and the homegrown pups. Suddenly the whole script was flipped and it became all about Johnny -- they gave him the C and made it his team. Overnight, the entire identity of the team changed... the exact moment we were trending upward... the "right way."

Tavares is still wonderful, but looking back, I still think the Leafs maybe should have left the open market alone, be it Tavares or anyone. The Tavares signing will always be complicated to me.

You are looking at it with hindsight. If the Leafs win a few rounds, your views will change.
Looking back, signing JT was the perfect storm. Bozak, JVR and Leo all expired that year and Leafs need to replace them. JT is certainly an upgrade to Bozak.

 

[Gary Nylund]

If you have the time, you should read this article as well as the comments.

10 Postmortem Thoughts: Sober reflections on the Maple Leafs' early playoff exit, the Mitch Marner controversy, Jack Campbell's playoff, Zach Hyman's future & more | Maple Leafs Hotstove

Not sure about the comments, not going to spend much time on that but good article.

The end is good for those looking for something positive - if there's one bright spot this season (and there is) it's Campbell. I am so impressed with him and we're so lucky to have him. Signing him long term now would be be my first priority, the sample size is still small so the cost should be reasonable.

 

[Gary Nylund]

You are looking at it with hindsight. If the Leafs win a few rounds, your views will change.
Looking back, signing JT was the perfect storm. Bozak, JVR and Leo all expired that year and Leafs need to replace them. JT is certainly an upgrade to Bozak.

Yeah that'll happen.

Seriously though, I can't believe how much people are complaining about Tavares. There was almost universal jubilation when he chose, it was a no brainer of a signing.

 

[The Masters]

Boring ? Are u watching their game currently in OT?

Lol right

u wana know what was boring? The leafs vs habs was a snooze fest. Every other series was highly intense , back and forth.

Dont see how u can critisize Lou. We wnt downhill and he created a contender.

Sick of dubas and shanny keep saying next year next year. Washington tookvthem 10 seasons. Give me a break. What a loser mentality

 

[Polaris1010]

When are they going to fire the management people?

Babcock coached the team in two intense playoff series against Boston, a cup contender.

Since his departure, the team limped out of the playoffs against lesser opposition.

Something is wrong here.