Fire Shanahan/Dubas (Yay or Nay)

[phillipmike]

I'd fire Shanny he has had enough time and get someone who can guide Dubas better.

I think Shanny is too hands off and Dubas has too much autonomy.

I was in the pro Shanny camp until a few days ago. Nothing wrong with being hands off if your subordinates are doing a good job, if not then you deserve blame as well. If the President doesnt hold the GM accountable then how can the GM hold his coach and players accountable. Same goes for the coach and his players. If there is no accountability from the top, then the poison runs down into your subordinates until it gets to the players, something we have seen over the last 2.5 years.

 

[centipede2233]

Shanahan said dubas and keefe did excellent jobs. Like at least give us a generic “we will do a full autopsy of the organization top to bottom and assess moving forward”. At least give us the impression that there could be some accountability coming.....

 

[Stinger8]

Brodie was his best addition. Liked Bogosian as well. Muzzin was good but it might turn bad very soon. Turning 33 signed 3 more years almost $6M and injured the last two playoffs/play-in.

Campbell is good 1B. Like him a lot but also cost futures to fix a problem Dubas foolishly created.

Don’t agree about Galchenyuk. He offers some flash but he’s bad at a lot of little things without the puck and he hurt them a lot because of it.

Galchenyuk is really really good at looking like he is doing something but he is actually accomplishing very little. Poor hockey IQ, does not finish checks at playoff time, he is a 4th liner maybe. Mikhaylev is right there with him.

 

[Stephen]

I was in the pro Shanny camp until a few days ago. Nothing wrong with being hands off if you subordinates are doing a good job, if not then you deserve blame as well. If the President doesnt hold the GM accountable then how can the GM hold his coach and players accountable. Same goes for the coach and his players. If there is no accountability from the top, then the poison runs down into your subordinates until it gets to the players, something we have seen over the last 2.5 years.

Shanny’s gotta be the multiple Stanley Cup and Olympic champion and Hall of Famer who is looking at everyone with scrutiny and keeping the underlings to a high standard and not another positive reinforcement dad figure offering unconditional support for underachieving key members of the organization.

The whole culture of Toronto Suburban Dad’s is just baffling to me. Everyone loves each other and the boys are buzzing. I don’t get it.

 

[The Legend]

So Dubie listens to fans and Shanny. OK. And get more great players ?? Sure, maybe in a non-cap world and even so where to get these great players because we are still waiting for his picks to arrive to the big team.

Hall over Foligno.

 

[The Legend]

Oh dear there's actually people still posting their sour grapes about Lou being way more successful than Dubas (both on the Leafs and with the Islanders)..

Yikes.

Lou has been as responsible for the Islanders success as their janitor.

Actually check that, the janitor didn't sign Uncle Leo to 4/12.

 

[egd27]

All emotion and hyperbole aside, I think Shanny and Dubas deserve a little more leash -- on one condition -- Dubas replaces Keefe. I am not a fan of Keefe, and until he proves me wrong, don't believe he has what it takes to lead the Leafs to a championship.

Totally agree.
We talk about get out goalied, but Keefe has been out coached 2 series in a row. And neither opposing coach had to do much to accomplish it.

 

[hotpaws]

So Dubie listens to fans and Shanny. OK. And get more great players ?? Sure, maybe in a non-cap world and even so where to get these great players because we are still waiting for his picks to arrive to the big team.

yup it's everybody's fault but the GM , lol

but since we're making the decisions i'm wondering where my slice of Dubie's paycheck is

 

[hamzarocks]

Lou has been as responsible for the Islanders success as their janitor.

Actually check that, the janitor didn't sign Uncle Leo to 4/12.

Lou >>> Dubas don't insult the sport by comparing the two. Come on man, stop being such a homer

Lou's excellent moves include

Acquiring and Signing Pageau to a long-term deal. If you think Philip Danult was a Selke level player taking Matthews and Marner's lunch money, you'd call the cops with what Pageau an incredible playoff performer would do to the pair

Signing Robin Lehner, helping rehabilitate him into a Vezina level goalie before deciding to move on and not sign him long-term. Lehner had a strong 2020 but sucks this year. Instead, Lou got Varlamov signed 4 years at a 5M contract, with Varlamov having a Vezina level season this year posting a .929 helping the islanders make the playoffs.

Re-signing Brock Nelson and Jordan Eberle, two 50-60 point players on the Islanders to fair UFA deals with both being strong for them in the playoffs. Lou is very strong in contract negotiations and is able to keep the guys he values as RFA or UFAs

Trading a 1st+ trash for Palmeiri and Zajac, giving the islanders incredible depth across the board. Pamleri has 5 pts in 8 games in the playoffs with 4 goals and has won the islanders games, while zajac has been a smart veteran forward who has been a solid depth option for the isles.

Matt Barzal and Ryan Pulock both signed to bridge deals to allow them to compete for this and next year giving them the ability to retain and add talent as the season moved along. Got his young key players to take fair deals, putting the team first despite everyone saying that no star RFA signs a bridge deal

Drafted two big impact players for the future and current good contributors in Wahlstrom and Dobson. Both are really talented and huge future pieces on the Islanders which were both brought in under Lou

He was also the one who convinced Trotz to come in and coach there, made sure to retain players which fit Trotz style and system and quickly did what he did on the leafs in establishing and correcting the cultural problem the islanders had.

He isn't perfect as evident by the Komorov contract and Toews deal (though he got 2 seconds and had to make moves to fit the cap issues left by having Ladd signed under the previous regime) yet he is still one of the best in the NHL and has had his team win 5 series since joining the Islanders with a potential 6th one possible if they beat the bruins

Dubas tenure has been a failure results-wise, though he has made solid moves and isn't as bad as some belief. However, Lou is a top 5 GM in the league right now and that is something Dubas is not. Leaf fans can continue to stay salty and mock Lou, but his teams will continue to perform and win games in Spring.

 

[egd27]

Lou has been as responsible for the Islanders success as their janitor.

Actually check that, the janitor didn't sign Uncle Leo to 4/12.

That cute how you try and make fun of the contracts signed by GM's that manage teams that can actually achieve some playoff success.

 

[tp71]

And depending how Seth Jarvis turns out, perhaps the Marleau trade as well. JFJ made a similar trade, picks for Toskala that helped San Jose land Logan Couture.

History will tell if Rask and Couture looks as bad as Kadri and Jarvis. Not to mention letting assets go for free like Gardiner, Barrie, McBackup etc. No GM is perfect but guys like Marchment and Barbanov were moved for nothing and they found success on other teams.

The Marleau trade has more to do with Lou signing a dumb contract than it does Dubas trading him away.

That contract was always going to get in the way of signing the others due to the 3rd year being tacked on for whatever reason and it either needed to be bought out or pay someone else to make it go away. Lou would have had to do the same thing. He just left the unpinned grenade behind for someone else (Dubas) to fall on. That move is the unfortunate fall out of having to fix someone else's stupidity.

 

[sparxx87]

Lou has been as responsible for the Islanders success as their janitor.

Actually check that, the janitor didn't sign Uncle Leo to 4/12.

You mean the guy whose spent a large part of the past two months on the top line when their captain went down for the year?

Leafs fans love to hammer on that contract but the Islanders seem to be quite happy with Komorov and they’ve been successful with him.

 

[Stephen]

Looking back, I'm going to have to give Lou a bit of a pass on the Marleau contract in isolation. Without knowing what his medium term plan for the organization and the post ELC futures of our Big 3, the third year was going to be a nuisance but not a franchise crippling one. What made it a bigger problem was we decided to go big game hunting in Tavares, which compounded the problem and used up the cap a little bit quicker than we could have imagined. The $11 million high bar also dragged up the value of everyone else. But even then, the Big 3 contracts were each a screw up in and of themselves. Maybe Dubas should have signed Nylander to the $6.9 million right away knowing he was a franchise piece anyway. And then lock up Mitch for similar money before tackling Matthews. Hindsight is 20/20.

Leafs Hour asked a good question. To what extent are the Leafs locked into the Big 4 and they can't get out of it?

 

[egd27]

The Marleau trade has more to do with Lou signing a dumb contract than it does Dubas trading him away.

That contract was always going to get in the way of signing the others due to the 3rd year being tacked on for whatever reason and it either needed to be bought out or pay someone else to make it go away. Lou would have had to do the same thing. He just left the unpinned grenade behind for someone else (Dubas) to fall on. That move is the unfortunate fall out of having to fix someone else's stupidity.

Not without Dubas signing Tavares

Not if Dubas had signed Marner for 8 or even better gave him a bridge deal like Point got

 

[Menzinger]

Looking back, I'm going to have to give Lou a bit of a pass on the Marleau contract in isolation. Without knowing what his medium term plan for the organization and the post ELC futures of our Big 3, the third year was going to be a nuisance but not a franchise crippling one. What made it a bigger problem was we decided to go big game hunting in Tavares, which compounded the problem and used up the cap a little bit quicker than we could have imagined. The $11 million high bar also dragged up the value of everyone else. But even then, the Big 3 contracts were each a screw up in and of themselves. Maybe Dubas should have signed Nylander to the $6.9 million right away knowing he was a franchise piece anyway. And then lock up Mitch for similar money before tackling Matthews. Hindsight is 20/20.

Leafs Hour asked a good question. To what extent are the Leafs locked into the Big 4 and they can't get out of it?

Eh even without taking into account the teams salary cap structure, 6 million for an 40ish point 37 year old is still pretty ugly no matter how you look at it.

 

[hotpaws]

The Marleau trade has more to do with Lou signing a dumb contract than it does Dubas trading him away.

That contract was always going to get in the way of signing the others due to the 3rd year being tacked on for whatever reason and it either needed to be bought out or pay someone else to make it go away. Lou would have had to do the same thing. He just left the unpinned grenade behind for someone else (Dubas) to fall on. That move is the unfortunate fall out of having to fix someone else's stupidity.

no it had everything to do with Dubas

-overpaying Tavares/Mathews/Marner
-retaining on Kessel
-choosing to keep Kap/Mango and then having to deal them the following season because of his self inflicted cap issues

and mostly because he's incompetent in trades

Lou inherited 3 much worse contracts (Lupul/Robidas/Phaneuf) than the extra year he left Dubie and made them disappear without any issues . He also left Dubie 3 quality players Rielly/Andy/Kadri on team friendly deals but hey lets shit on him to try to make Dubie look competent .

 

[Trapper]

Shanahan said dubas and keefe did excellent jobs. Like at least give us a generic “we will do a full autopsy of the organization top to bottom and assess moving forward”. At least give us the impression that there could be some accountability coming.....

There is no accountability.
If I say I am going to stick with you (with the core) no matter what, are you worried?
Accountable?
Why would you bother doing anything different from what you already do.

 

[tp71]

no it had everything to do with Dubas

-overpaying Tavares/Mathews/Marner
-retaining on Kessel
-choosing to keep Kap/Mango and then having to deal them the following season because of his self inflicted cap issues

and mostly because he's incompetent in trades

Lou inherited 3 much worse contracts (Lupul/Robidas/Phaneuf) than the extra year he left Dubie and made them disappear without any issues . He also left Dubie 3 quality players Rielly/Andy/Kadri on team friendly deals but hey lets shot on him to try to make Dubie look competent .

Im not trying to make Dubas look anything. Hes made himself look the way hes made himself look.

The Marleau contract was a bad contract the minute the pen hit the paper. It was going to get in the way of signing better, much more needed and valued players by year three no matter what Dubas did.

Lou is a good GM. One of the best. The Marleau move was a bad move. And Dubas was going to have to pay someone to get out of it, regardless of what anything else that happened.

Lou's other mistake? Not giving bonuses to the rookies. That's a move that also comes back to bite you. Don't pay me now? Fine, pay me later.

And I can't stress this enough, Lou is a great GM (even as critical of those moves as I am) and Dubas will fall on whatever mess he's created.

But the bad Marleau signing was Lou. Not giving Nylander/Matthews/Marner bonuses was Lou. Both of those things are bad moves. I realize this isnt the narrative people want right now, but neither of those are Dubas' doing.

Look, Dubas has a lot of blame on his shoulders. Overpaying Marner is one. But the Marleau issue is and always will be Lous fault, regardless of how this fanbase feels about Dubas and the job hes done thus far.

And once more, me criticizing Lou in this instance is not me saying Dubas has done well. I just dislike seeing others mistakes being blamed on the wrong party.

 

[Cleetus]

That cute how you try and make fun of the contracts signed by GM's that manage teams that can actually achieve some playoff success.

exactly lou's team is playing, what are the leafs doing.... or better yet, its all because of Trotz lmao who the f*** hired him?

 

[sparxx87]

Eh even without taking into account the teams salary cap structure, 6 million for an 40ish point 37 year old is still pretty ugly no matter how you look at it.

Selling him as a 40ish point player is pretty dishonest. He was a solid top 9 player that offered versatility and leadership that was worth more than just his on-ice contribution. Him being 37 wasn’t as big with skating still being a strength of his. Age concerns are of injury and loss of foot speed which Marleau had no concerns.

3rd year was a stretch and nobody is saying it was good but it was the Tavares signing that upset the internal cap structure and created the need to dump 6m for one more year.

More twisting from you.

Edit: Lamoriello future cap forecast included Kadri @4.5M as 2c + 3RFAs. He didn’t project 11m for his 2c.

 

[Dreakmur]

The Marleau contract was a bad contract the minute the pen hit the paper. It was going to get in the way of signing better, much more needed and valued players by year three no matter what Dubas did.

Lou is a good GM. One of the best. The Marleau move was a bad move. And Dubas was going to have to pay someone to get out of it, regardless of what anything else that happened.

Marleau served a very valuable purpose. The contract was a year longer than ideal, but if that's what was needed to get him signed, then that had to be done.

Lou's other mistake? Not giving bonuses to the rookies. That's a move that also comes back to bite you. Don't pay me now? Fine, pay me later.

Just because the players ask for more money doesn't mean you have to give it to them.

 

[egd27]

no it had everything to do with Dubas

-overpaying Tavares/Mathews/Marner
-retaining on Kessel
-choosing to keep Kap/Mango and then having to deal them the following season because of his self inflicted cap issues

and mostly because he's incompetent in trades

Lou inherited 3 much worse contracts (Lupul/Robidas/Phaneuf) than the extra year he left Dubie and made them disappear without any issues . He also left Dubie 3 quality players Rielly/Andy/Kadri on team friendly deals but hey lets shot on him to try to make Dubie look competent .

exactly

 

[sparxx87]

exactly lou's team is playing, what are the leafs doing.... or better yet, its all because of Trotz lmao who the f*** hired him?

Someone posted a link on the main boards that Trotz said he only went to NY because he had faith in Lamoriello.

 

[Gallagbi]

Looking back, I'm going to have to give Lou a bit of a pass on the Marleau contract in isolation. Without knowing what his medium term plan for the organization and the post ELC futures of our Big 3, the third year was going to be a nuisance but not a franchise crippling one. What made it a bigger problem was we decided to go big game hunting in Tavares, which compounded the problem and used up the cap a little bit quicker than we could have imagined. The $11 million high bar also dragged up the value of everyone else. But even then, the Big 3 contracts were each a screw up in and of themselves. Maybe Dubas should have signed Nylander to the $6.9 million right away knowing he was a franchise piece anyway. And then lock up Mitch for similar money before tackling Matthews. Hindsight is 20/20.

Leafs Hour asked a good question. To what extent are the Leafs locked into the Big 4 and they can't get out of it?

$6.9 was our reported offer, so Nylander was the one not signing.

I do find it a little odd there was no talk of a Nylander extension earlier, like the season prior, which was the regular cycle at the time.

Dubas's big mistake was not signing Marner early for the 8.5x8 rumour, even if it pissed of Nylander. It was the message and tiering that made sense and needed to be done IMO. Nylander wasn't on Marners level.

 

[tp71]

Marleau served a very valuable purpose. The contract was a year longer than ideal, but if that's what was needed to get him signed, then that had to be done.



Just because the players ask for more money doesn't mean you have to give it to them.

No it didn't need to be done. You don't sign a 37 year old player to a 3 year/18M dollar deal when all your ELCs come up in two. And if he wants three, go find it elsewhere. It was a bad contract day one. There are other players with solid leadership qualities who will always be out there for far far less. Look what the Leafs got in Spezza...did he need three years? Would you sign Jason Spezza to a three year deal? He's 37.

In most cases, I would agree with you, this one I don't.

You don't think that if you were a player, just got drafted #1 overall, and #2-4 all get signing bonuses and you don't ("Three high selections from the 2016 draft class have already signed entry-level contracts – Winnipeg’s Patrik Laine (the No. 2 pick got $2.65M in potential bonuses), Columbus’ Pierre-Luc Dubois (the No. 3 pick got $2.5M in bonuses) and Montreal’s Mikhail Sergachev (the No. 9 pick got $850,000 in bonuses) – but Lamoriello was correct when he said there was no rush with Matthews.") ...are you going to turn around and give that team a friendly deal when your contract comes up? Like hell I would.

The only high end rookies that don't get signing bonuses are Lous. He's old school that way. But when you see stars like McDavid/Kane/Toews/Laine/Eichel, the list goes one get bonuses, you are a player are going to get yours back. It's just a matter of time.

Do I think Dubas overpaid. Oh heck yes, but that issue starts at the beginning of the whole story.

Lamoriello bonus policy makes Matthews deal worth watching - Sportsnet.ca