You need to keep up, his entire argument is that LA didn't slow-cooking players in those years (they did) and that they do it more during Blake (they dont)
There are literal facts that he ignores to make that argument
Speculation: Fire Rob Blake Blow it Up Offseason Thread (update: Robitaille, Blake and Hiller stay)
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You need to keep up, his entire argument is that LA didn't slow-cooking players in those years (they did) and that they do it more during Blake (they dont)
There are literal facts that he ignores to make that argument
Raccoon Jesus
We were right there
yup, i've spent time on Kings message boards for 25+ years so can't accuse me of not trying but
there are exactly three people on my ignore list and I'm not convinced it's not all the same person
also, same person on twitter
I wouldn't presume to tell other people how to Internet but it's transparent as hell what the schtick has become
Herby
How could Blake have known?
You are making the same judgements that GBH is. Nobody is saying that the Kings moved everybody quickly through without AHL time, that is not the point of dispute. The facts are that when the Kings had players good enough to play on the NHL roster, they put them there, which is not the case with this team under Rob Blake, in fact it's not even close, and this with a Kings team that has been anywhere from garbage to middling in every season Blake has been GM, which wasn't the case with the previous teams. If a player was good enough for the NHL roster they made the team, whether they were a teenager or not, whether they had "paid their dues" and "learned the system" or not. There was no "Only the McDavid's of the world make the league without AHL time" which is now the belief of the organization. A couple of years ago GBH claimed that the Kings didn't use their AHL affiliate more than other teams for 1/2 round picks, so I went through and just researched it, and guess what the numbers showed? GBH then tilted to his usual predictable, "There are plenty of ways to develop prospects" (as he defends a management team that only develops prospects one way). Of course never acknowledging that he was wrong or apologizing for saying I was making things up.
Nobody is saying every prospect should play in the NHL without AHL time, just that AHL usage should not be a requirement for every high end prospect that a team drafts and develops. It doesn't happen that way around the league, and the rest of the league has done a better job developing youth than Rob Blake has done in LA.
Do you think the Kings under DL put Clarke and Byfield in the AHL? I don't, I think they do what other teams have consistently done with similar players. Byfield would have been in the league at 18 and Clarke either makes the team at 19, or at the very least is an NHL'er at 20, no way on Earth does he spend a full season in the minors, these are examples of why it's dishonest to say the teams developed similarly. Could you imagine a Clifford, Moller, Simmonds or Johnson happening with the Kings now? Come on.
As RJ said, do you think it's normal for 1/2 round picks to reach waiver age without either being moved or integrated into the lineup? How often did that happen under "slow-cook" Lombardi. Thomas Hickey? How often has it happened under Blake? How can you possibly sit here and say it's comparable. Bjornfot lost to waivers, JAD lost to waivers. Kaiyev, Thomas, Turcotte all without defined roles up against waivers after D+5 or D+6. These are 1/2 round picks, including a Top 5 pick that have been slowcooked so long the smoker ran out of wood. This is not a normal way to develop youth, it isn't in the 2020's and it wasn't in the 2000's and 2010's.
Part of the reason why the Kings stopped putting players into the NHL so quickly was because they just stopped drafting good players, and yes also because they became contenders. But even as a contender, Tyler Toffoli (2nd round pick) was in the lineup for the Kings in the 2013 playoffs in his age 20 season when the Kings had the 2nd best team in the NHL, that is more than can be said for Brandt Clarke who despite being a Top 10 pick and playing at a much higher level in the AHL was not in the lineup for the a middling cannon fodder Kings playoff team. You think if others were in charge in this organization that Clarke would have been handled the same?
Just out of curiosity, in your opinion how many of the players who played 0 AHL games under DL would have also played 0 AHL games under Blake? Sure, if you want to debate Doughty and Kopitar sure, but really think Rob Blake, Nelson Emerson and Surf Nutz would have been ok with Simmonds, Johnson, Moller, Schenn in the NHL at 19 or 20? Come on, and that point alone is why his comments are dishonest.
Well I generally like GBH, I know some of you lump him in with Axl and others but I generally like debating the guy. But we had this same argument somewhat recently, where GBH just can't accept the fact that the Kings use their AHL affiliate more for 1-2 round picks than any team in the NHL. I went through and listed the AHL GP for these guys in comparison to players on teams around the league, he saw this, but he is still here trying to argue that the Kings are not a slow cook team. I mean you have Yannetti saying they are a slow cook team, you have Murray saying only the elite of the elite can play in the league as very young players without AHL time and the actions of the organization back those comments up. But he is still here trying to insist that the Kings integrate young players into the lineup just as quickly as everyone else, I just have no idea how anyone can come to that conclusion, it's insanity.
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FrozenKing18
Where is my super suit?
Rosen helping out Kings Insider with some Kings history
BigKing
Blake Out of Hell III: Back in to Hell
The AHL argument has this little tidbit to it: he has dropped NCAA guys like Iafallo, Lizotte and Laferriere (four AHL games played) right into the NHL. Anderson got 53 games after two years of college. Faber had the "play right away" carrot dangled in front of him to get him to sign.
Turcotte gets one not-so-great NCAA season and immediately to the AHL.
The NCAA has been Blake's best development system. Pretty damning.
Brandt Clarke has now played more AHL games than Mikey Anderson. A thing that doesn't get mentioned on here enough with Clarke--probably because we are focusing on how he should already have been playing full-time in the NHL last year--is that Blake purposefully held him out of competitive hockey in his D+1 season.
It's f***ing criminal.
Turcotte gets one not-so-great NCAA season and immediately to the AHL.
The NCAA has been Blake's best development system. Pretty damning.
Brandt Clarke has now played more AHL games than Mikey Anderson. A thing that doesn't get mentioned on here enough with Clarke--probably because we are focusing on how he should already have been playing full-time in the NHL last year--is that Blake purposefully held him out of competitive hockey in his D+1 season.
It's f***ing criminal.
Herby
How could Blake have known?
BigKing
Blake Out of Hell III: Back in to Hell
Unserious organization.
You know it's fallen apart when the nostalgia humping organization starts getting the nostalgia wrong.
Herby
How could Blake have known?
If the Kings use their AHL affiliate more than any other team in the NHL for 1-2 round picks and top 10 picks under Rob Blake, and it's "Been this way since 2007" then shouldn't the Kings under DL have also been at or near the top for average AHL GP by Top 10 picks and all 1-2 round picks?
Bandit
Registered User
I mean just the simple f***ing fact that you can’t win in OT by 2 goals…
Herby
How could Blake have known?
Yes, the NCAA has been good to the Kings. But despite the success, the Kings continue to try to get guys out of there as quickly as possible, because in their eyes, they are better off in the AHL and working with Muzz, despite all the evidence to the contrary.
That was what I was saying when everyone on this forum collectively lost their mind and cheered on the Turcotte signing after his freshman year when he had zero chance of playing in the NHL and was going to gain nothing from the AHL. I firmly believe that no team in the league (save *maybe* Winnipeg) would have made that pull. The NCAA, especially a factory program like Wisconsin, with top-notch facilities, good coaching, and good competition level, is a pretty damn good place for young players to develop. The Habs and Rangers saw that and have reaped the benefits of their UW 1st rounders, while the Kings saw things differently.
Faber and his representation team made a very good decision by choosing to return to the Gophers rather than sign with the Kings and spending a year in the AHL. Bob Motzko > Surfin Muzz & Marco Sturm
This is another reason why I am hoping that if the Kings don't trade their 1st for a goalie, that they draft a CHL player. As you know, I am usually pretty pro-NCAA because I think the 2-3 years and right to the NHL development path is ideal for NCAA 1st rounders, but that is just unlikely to happen in LA. The CHL agreement prevents the mistakes that Blake has made time and time again with European and NCAA prospects from happening. Going the CHL route is like putting a cone on Rob Blake so he doesn't bite his balls again like he did with Turcotte, Bjornfot, and Kupari and Helenius, who all played in the AHL before they should have.
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Is he? I don't know where to find league wide numbers, but if you look at 2007 to 2016 picks 1 and 2 just for LA this is what it breaks down to going into their D+2 season right?
2007 - 1st and 2nd round picks - 280 NHL Games - 164 AHL games
2008 - 1st and 2nd round picks - 249 NHL Games - 293 AHL/ECHL games
2009 - 1st and 2nd round picks - 164 NHL Games - 14 AHL games
2010 - 1st and 2nd round picks - 72 NHL Games - 223 AHL Games
2011 - 1st and 2nd round picks - 0 NHL Games - 112 AHL Games
2012 - 1st and 2nd round picks - 25 NHL Games - 105 AHL Games
2013 - 1st and 2nd round picks - 0 NHL Games - 111 AHL Games
2014 - 1st and 2nd round picks - 10 NHL Games - 327 AHL Games
2015 - 1st and 2nd round picks - NA
So total under DL is 800 NHL games into D+2 and 1,349 AHL games....
Raccoon Jesus
We were right there
I can't believe the Clarke thing didn't get more attention outside LA
Just absolutely bat shit crazy prospect handling
THAT was the 'we're smarter than anyone else' moment more than anything else that came before, I doubt there's been anything even remotely like it anywhere
Best player on NHL ice for at least 5 of his 7 games, then held out, then sent to the AHL to NOT PLAY FOR AN ENTIRE MONTH< then back to the WJC
Piston
Fire Luc and Blake
I just saw Bjornfot being interviewed on the Panther's Board. He looked ecstatic to be going to the Finals (and to be out of LA). I'm willing to bet he could become another Forsling and make Bluc look like the idiots they are.
Chazz Reinhold
Registered User
kovacro
Uvijek Vjerni
Hope he does find success. I liked the pick at the time and still believe he can turn into a reliable NHL defenseman. best of luck to him, he's in a good spot with the Panthers.
KINGS17
Smartest in the Room
- Apr 6, 2006
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I think we should slow cook the posters here.
Anyone not here prior to 2010 should be sent down to the minors (LGK) until their logic and performance makes them worthy of a call up to the show.
Anyone not here prior to 2010 should be sent down to the minors (LGK) until their logic and performance makes them worthy of a call up to the show.
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I like TB and like everyone else I think he was mishandled and it was also terrible asset management. I hope he has a great NHL career BUT he has only played 4 games in Florida (hockeydb is wrong and says 1), all in the regular season. Even if Florida wins he may not get a ring and he has a long way to go before he cements himself as a regular, which I think (and hope) he will do. So it’s a way to go for him to make anybody look like idiots…. more than they already do, that is.
I assume you are getting waived then
funky
Build around Byfield, not the vets
- Mar 9, 2002
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Yannetti had some interesting things to say about Bjornfot and how the Kings failed him. He also said Bjornfot needed to do a few things that he didn’t seem willing to do to push himself to the next level. Saw Vlasic like qualities in him.
So either he is too high on his own picks or our development staff is not getting our young guys to the level they should.
Herby
How could Blake have known?
Top 15 picks
3OA Johnson - 0 AHL games
11OA Kopitar - 0 AHL games
2OA Doughty - 0 AHL games
4OA Hickey - 212 AHL games
5OA Schenn - 7 AHL games
15OA Forbort - 194 AHL games
13OA Teubert - 39 AHL games + 18 ECHL games before trade
---------------
2OA Byfield - 59 AHL games
5OA Turcotte - 126 AHL game
8OA Clarke - 55 AHL games
11OA Vilardi - 75 AHL games
This looks like a slow cook to you, GBH? When analyzing high-end picks it's not even a comparison. The Kings under DL put high-end players into the NHL much quicker than similarly drafted players under Blake. Look at the players who had major AHL time for DL, you see something similar about all those guys? D-man who ended up just not being good at all.
15-30 picks
29OA Kempe - 104 AHL games
30OA Pearson - 105 AHL games
17OA Lewis - 182 AHL games
----------------------
Bjornfot - 59 AHL games (played 1 NHL game before any AHL games)
Harder to draw on for this selection. The Kings have had very very few picks in the back half of round 1 in the last 18 years.
2nd round picks (only including players who had NHL careers or still project to)
52OA Moller - 102 AHL games (46 game NHL debut after 2)
61OA Simmonds - 0 AHL games
34OA Voynov - 266 AHL games
35OA Clifford - 7 AHL playoff games
47OA Toffoli - 76 AHL games (10 game NHL debut after 58)
------------------------------
41OA JAD - 115 AHL games (9 game NHL debut before AHL)
51OA Thomas - 157 AHL games
33OA Kaliyev - 40 AHL games
50OA Fagemo - 201 AHL games (4 game NHL debut after 90)
Don't know how to group Faber into this, he was very likely to be put on the JAD path, where he plays a few NHL games but then spends a season in the AHL. Grans, I don't know either, maybe its even tough to project him as likely to have an NHL career. But another player who was rushed over from Europe to early to be put in the AHL with terrible results.
Still don't see how you look at this and say they are the same, the Kings under DL consistently put the high end guys into the NHL at a much younger age, and with much fewer AHL games than under Rob Blake. The Kings did not even put a #2 OA pick into the NHL (when that has been the norm for decades) and wouldn't give Clarke an NHL spot despite a historically great junior career and pretty close to dominant play in the AHL. There is no way Clarke and QB would have been handled the same 15 years ago, no way.
I think TB peaked early, and I think the Kings contributed to him peaking early because the Kings denied another year of growth in the Swedish Elite League, in favor of putting him in the AHL as an 18 year old, and under the watch of the King of the plateau Glen Murray. Another member of this organization that won't get a comparable job whenever this is all blown up.
Helge Grans and Kupari were the same way. Just let NCAA and European players develop in their own leagues, it works for everyone else, but Rob Blake is always trying to re-invent the wheel.
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Herby
How could Blake have known?
Clarke's handing has been as ridiculous as any prospect in the NHL that I can remember.
The age 19 season where he is jerked around (worrying about a f***ing ELC), ends up playing for 3 different teams (4 if you count WJC). He is finally sent back to the OHL, he proceeds to completely destroy the OHL at levels we have not seen in by a defenseman decades. And he is rewarded with spending the majority of his age 20 season dominating the AHL while making peanuts, meanwhile comparable defenders (Hughes, Faber, Power etc.) are making almost a million dollars in the NHL. Even more ridiculous when you factor in the Kings lack of skill in the entire lineup and especially on the blueline, the Kings had 30 goals total from d-man not named Clarke, 15 of those by one player.
The development decision in his age 19 season was bad, but you could argue the age 20 one was just as bad.
I didn't group Faber or Grans, or anyone else that got traded etc
You keep saying there is no way Clarke would be handled the same way...yet you literally have Hickey being handled that way....you say Byfield wouldn't be handled that way but you had Schenn going down the same path before he was traded...
You completely ignore Kaliyev, Bjornfoot, Laferriere, Spence, Clarke etc all players who played NHL games BEFORE they were in the AHL.....
You bring up Thomas and Turcotte, like their injuries are just normal career arcs, instead of delaying everything, the one case you have, Fagemo and he couldn't handle it on another NHL and got waived again.....
tny760
Registered User
- Mar 12, 2017
- 20,382
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There is talk about signing Roy so dont be surprised if Clarke is in the AHL again next season.
Anyone hear the interview between Yanetti and Hoven? Pretty good.
fivehole32
Kicking rebounds to the slot
- Jan 11, 2015
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