Fire Ken Holland: 2022-2023 edition

[Ol' Jase]

A championship should be expected in any sport when you have a generational talent.

End of discussion.

If Kevin Lowe can get to a Stanley Cup final as a manager it's clearly not impossible, excuses are for losers.

So, yeah, you think it should have happened already. We get it.

 

[Porkleaker]

Fire holland!

 

[Soundwave]

So, yeah, you think it should have happened already. We get it.

Nothing unreasonable about that frankly.

 

[Ol' Jase]

Nothing unreasonable about that frankly.

This is Holland's fourth season. How many cups should he have? When exactly should the Oilers have won them?

 

[Soundwave]

This is Holland's fourth season. How many cups should he have? When exactly should the Oilers have won them?

Every year from his third year here should be reasonable to expect a Finals given the talent level here. 3 years is a long time in pro sports, teams are entirely built and rebuilt in 3-4 years in some places.

GM is not someone I need to make excuses for any more than like ... the dude who does the ice at Rogers. You have a job. Do it. Do it well. I'm not going to make excuses for you if you don't do your job well or can't perform your task in a reasonable amount of time.

GM/owner are not players on the team and I draw that distinction very clearly. I'm not here to cheer them on, they're employees that have a job here like trainers or other staff as far as I'm concerned. Do your job, don't give me excuses on why you can't get it done. I don't need to like the owner or GM, frankly I didn't like Pocklington and that's fine, didn't stop my enjoyment of the team other than the fact he sold f***ing Gretzky away.

 

[Ol' Jase]

Every year from his third year here should be reasonable to expect a Finals given the talent level here. 3 years is a long time in pro sports, teams are entirely built and rebuilt in 3-4 years in some places.

GM is not someone I need to make excuses for any more than like ... the dude who does the ice at Rogers. You have a job. Do it. Do it well. I'm not going to make excuses for you if you don't do your job well or can't perform your task in a reasonable amount of time.

GM/owner are not players on the team and I draw that distinction very clearly. I'm not here to cheer them on, they're employees that have a job here like trainers or other staff as far as I'm concerned. Do your job, don't give me excuses on why you can't get it done.

But Holland has made the moves that has questionably made this team a legitimate Cup contender. You're just pissed he didn't do it on your timeline.

There is a pretty big difference between "he hasn't done f*** all" and "he didn't do it fast enough".

 

[SupremeTeam16]

Yeah sorry I just don't buy the whole "well it's haaaaaaaaaaaard and no one can do this job well without the magic of hindsight!".

It's not *that* hard when you have the two best players in the world that anyone should feel sorry for the Oilers management (Holland or even Chiarelli).

You think Calgary or Vancouver or Winnipeg probably like 10 other franchises wouldn't trade every player they've had the last 15 years to just start with McDavid alone? Every one of their fans would bend over backwards and kiss their own ass for that even if they won't admit it.

So yeah the whole "yeah but you have to understand it's sooooooo hard" shit went out the window that one April day in 2015.

You don’t have a clue.

When Holland got here the roster was full of holes, the prospect pool was pretty barren and the cap situation was a mess. We weren’t one or two pieces away at that point and if he started dumping quality picks then to clear cap and fill a hole or two that wasn’t changing our playoff fortunes in any meaningful way. All it would have done is ensured no chance of having any hope of sustainable success or being able to make moves when the time was right, like the Ekholm move.

By no means has he been perfect, he’s definitely had some misses but every gm does. Yeah he got to start with Mcdavid but he also lost his #1 and #2/3 defenders for nothing in back to back years in situations that he couldn’t control. Had to deal with 3 seasons of basically no cap increases when you’re trying to climb out of cap hell and are trying to project future salary structure.

The team has for the most part improved results every year since he took over, they’re looking positioned to have 2-3 good cracks at a cup starting this year. The cap situation is clearing up, he’s got the core locked up, and he’s managed to build a decent farm and kept his high end prospects and they’ve done a good job of bringing along our more mature and blue chip prospects some of who will be valuable, cheap options over the next few seasons.

The whole “Oilers are wasting Mcdavid” narrative is so stupid too. It’s really hard to win in this league, and it takes a long time for plenty of great players and sometimes it doesn’t happen for great players or teams at all. Which is why it’s so important to be patient, be smart and understand when it’s the best time to push your chips in.

 

[Soundwave]

But Holland has made the moves that has questionably made this team a legitimate Cup contender. You're just pissed he didn't do it on your timeline.

There is a pretty big difference between "he hasn't done f*** all" and "he didn't do it fast enough".

I never said he hasn't done f*** all. I don't give trophies and accolades for doing half a job though. Or 2/3 of a job. Or even 3/4 of a job. You do it all and then I give you credit. In between that shit? Nope.

He's done the bare minimum to get them to Cup contention status. This is the bare minimum I would expect (finally one good defenceman added and a couple of good forwards for Leon and Connor to play with ... that is not a big ask). Like it's not like he's built a juggernaut roster, last year's Avs ... that was a juggernaut team, the Penguins with the 3 headed Crosby/Malkin/Kessel trio, that's a juggernaut. Tampa that's a juggernaut.

We're not on that level, McDavid and Draisaitl still have to go supernova to a ridiculous degree to get us where we need to be, but they are so good that we might be able to do it.

No GM here will get flowers from me until it's deserved, and it's only deserved when the Cup is won. Nothing less than that. And I don't think that's unfair. You wanna cry about it being unfair, fine, I don't think Ken Holland needs you to take a bullet for him on this one, he gets paid 6 million dollars for one specific job (give McDavid a team that's capable of winning a Cup). That's more than enough compensation for the job he has to do.

 

[JustNapalmIt]

I never said he hasn't done f*** all. I don't give trophies and accolades for doing half a job though. Or 2/3 of a job. Or even 3/4 of a job. You do it all and then I give you credit. In between that shit? Nope.

He's done the bare minimum to get them to Cup contention status. This is the bare minimum I would expect (finally one good defenceman added and a couple of good forwards for Leon and Connor to play with ... that is not a big ask). Like it's not like he's built a juggernaut roster, last year's Avs ... that was a juggernaut team, the Penguins with the 3 headed Crosby/Malkin/Kessel trio, that's a juggernaut.

We're not on that level, but if McDavid and Draisaitl go supernova again, we might be able to get where we need to go.

Yet you were the guy who also liked the Reinhart trade.
My lord. That coupled with the Ekman Larsson/Strome for Nurse/Drai wannabe trade would have singlehandedly, in the pantheon of ALL NHL Gm's Ever, would have been the worst GM'ing in the HISTORY of all NHL GMs.
Yes, lets listen to the guy who has the crystal ball. In hindsight.

 

[JustNapalmIt]

Nothing unreasonable about that frankly.

Well, somewhat uninformed & naive, but yeah, lets go with that.

 

[Soundwave]

Yet you were the guy who liked the Reinhart trade.
My lord. That coupled with the Ekman Larsson/Strome for Nurse/Drai would have singlehandedly, in the pantheon of ALL NHL Gm's ever, would have been the worst GM'ing in the HISTORY of all NHL GMs.
Yes, lets listen to the guy who has the crystal ball. In hindsight.

Do you have some kind of archive of every post I've made? Like I'm not even mad, that would be kind of amazing, lol.

And sorry no, you're not gonna change my mind on "win a Cup or f*** off" is my expecation of any GM here. Sorry if you badly need the GM to be some kind of huggable lovable mascot type that everyone loves. Do. Your. Job. Suit. Or. Get. f***ed. End of story for me on that. GMs and coaches are hired to be fired I don't form much of an attachment to any of them. Get the results or get lost and next guy up.

I'm on here enough that people know my position on things, if you want to take one or two posts wildly out of context, lol, have at it. I've been right on plenty of things including giving Chiarelli a lot shit when a lot of people gave me grief about not wanting to hear it or "c'mon he's not that bad".

 

[Ol' Jase]

"A year or two" specifically 2 years is a long time in pro sports, 2 years ago the Kraken didn't even exist now they're in the playoffs.

I think looking at the difference trading a 1st can make, it's a card the Oilers should've played a lot sooner.

Draft picks in all honesty unless they are a top 5 pick are more of a crap shoot and there's more luck involved than people want to admit. And even really past the top 3 it becomes very dicey.

I think we as an organization fell into the trap of believing in 1st round picks way too much. After you have like 4-5 1st round picks playing on your roster, really ... that's good enough. Like what realistically is the plan past that ... to have 7, 8, 9, 10 guys that are 1st round picks on your roster? Not even the top teams do that. It's a ridiculously slow way to build a roster.

Pittsburgh's traded like half the 1st round picks they had since getting Crosby and it was fine, I'm sure they'd rather have the 3 Cups.

Pittsburgh went seven years between cups. The “3 headed juggernaut” didn’t happen until Crosby’s 10th season.

Sakic was Colorado’s GM for eight years before they won. They were positively shit for a few of those seasons.

Tampa built their entire core around drafting and it took them years to do it. What massive trades or free agent signing did they need to do the build their team? How long did it take?

Again, the Oilers are 100% a legitimate cup contender and you’re pissed that it didn’t happen when you wanted it to.

 

[JustNapalmIt]

Do you have some kind of archive of every post I've made? Like I'm not even mad, that would be kind of amazing, lol.

And sorry no, you're not gonna change my mind on "win a Cup or f*** off" is my expecation of any GM here. Sorry if you badly need the GM to be some kind of huggable lovable mascot type that everyone loves. Do. Your. Job. Suit. Or. Get. f***ed. End of story for me on that. GMs and coaches are hired to be fired I don't form much of an attachment to any of them. Get the results or get lost and next guy up.

I'm on here enough that people know my position on things, if you want to take one or two posts wildly out of context, lol, have at it. I've been right on plenty of things including giving Chiarelli a lot shit when a lot of people gave me grief about not wanting to hear it or "c'mon he's not that bad".

No.
If you are going to be so certain in your opinion about a GM, I think its useful to be informed as to what the very judgmental poster thought about certain trades , possible trades and signings.
Such as you loving the Puju signing, really liking the Reinhart trade and thinking an Ekman Larsson/Strome for Nurse/Drai would be the cats meow. And the hypocrisy in retrospect.
There's plenty more.
Just kinda helps with ones perspective in knowing where a certain poster is coming from and their history

 

[Soundwave]

No.
If you are going to be so certain in your opinion about a GM, I think its useful to be informed as to what the very judgmental poster thought about certain trades , possible trades and signings.
Such as you loving the Puju signing, really liking the Reinhart trade and thinking an Ekman Larsson/Strome for Nurse/Drai would be the cats meow. And the hypocrisy in retrospect.
There's plenty more.
Just kinda helps with ones perspective in evaluating ones posting

You're taking posts from 8 years ago out of context like a whiny teenager who yells at their parents and uses one "aha!" moment like catching a parent saying something and then using it over and over and over again out of context.

Do you also remember me bringing up the Oilers should go after Evander Kane and lots of people saying that was a terrible idea? Or trading for Bjugstad? Or that they had to trade their 1st this year for a defensive upgrade? Or that Strome is probably better than Puljujarvi or Yamamoto?

Or that I was 100% right on Chiarelli when many, many, many posters on this board said I should tone it down.

Just because I don't suck the GM's dong all the time doesn't mean my POV is always wrong, it quite frankly is correct a lot. That bugs some people, fine, I mean I heard the same shit when I would go hard at Chiarelli. A no nonsense approach to management is more than fine, y'all that need to be best friends with the GM ... lol, get over it. This is what GMing a generational player is like. You have a lot of pressure and you don't get a lot of credit. And that's fine. That's how it should be. Lots of people took shots at Jerry Krause in Chicago because he had Jordan and Pippen even with SIX championships. Penguins management took shit every year until Lemieux finally won a Cup. The Penguins in the Crosby era only escaped this because they won almost right away.

 

[JustNapalmIt]

You're taking posts from 8 years ago out of context like a whiny teenager who yells at their parents and uses one "aha!" moment like catching a parent saying something and then using it over and over and over again out of context.

Do you also remember me bringing up the Oilers should go after Evander Kane and lots of people saying that was a terrible idea? Or trading for Bjugstad? Or that they had to trade their 1st this year for a defensive upgrade? Or that Strome is probably better than Puljujarvi or Yamamoto?

Or that I was 100% right on Chiarelli when many, many, many posters on this board said I should tone it down.

Just because I don't suck the GM's dong all the time doesn't mean my POV is always wrong, it quite frankly is correct a lot. That bugs some people, fine, I mean I heard the same shit when I would go hard at Chiarelli. A no nonsense approach to management is more than fine, y'all that need to be best friends with the GM ... lol, get over it. This is what GMing a generational player is like. You have a lot of pressure and you don't get a lot of credit. And that's fine. That's how it should be. Lots of people took shots at Jerry Krause in Chicago because he had Jordan and Pippen even with SIX championships. Penguins management took shit every year until Lemieux finally won a Cup. And that's fine and normal.

Almost everything you have said is a retrospective look.
Based on your posting (and this is grounded in facts/posts) with your evaluation of trades, signings & wannabe trades (with the benefit of hindsight and at the time, shockingly as unfair as that is), you would have made Chiarelli look like Sam Pollock in comparison.
Which makes your retrospective crystal ball opinions imo valueless. Because they are fantasy. Yet you post (of course in a retrospective view) as to you knew everything at the time and Holland is clueless. Which is clearly, certainly & manifestly bs.
In any event, Im out. Ive made my point (thankfully we still have Drai & Nurse, god forbid if we had Ekman Larsson & Strome instead, which you of course thought would be a good idea).
Have a great night.

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

Including Barrie before he was moved, the Oilers, this year, feature 3 40 pts defenseman. Wow

 

[Ol' Jase]

Every Oiler forward going into the playoffs has 10+ goals.

Fire this son of a bitch.

You're taking posts from 8 years ago out of context like a whiny teenager who yells at their parents and uses one "aha!" moment like catching a parent saying something and then using it over and over and over again out of context.

Do you also remember me bringing up the Oilers should go after Evander Kane and lots of people saying that was a terrible idea? Or trading for Bjugstad? Or that they had to trade their 1st this year for a defensive upgrade? Or that Strome is probably better than Puljujarvi or Yamamoto?

Or that I was 100% right on Chiarelli when many, many, many posters on this board said I should tone it down.

Just because I don't suck the GM's dong all the time doesn't mean my POV is always wrong, it quite frankly is correct a lot. That bugs some people, fine, I mean I heard the same shit when I would go hard at Chiarelli. A no nonsense approach to management is more than fine, y'all that need to be best friends with the GM ... lol, get over it. This is what GMing a generational player is like. You have a lot of pressure and you don't get a lot of credit. And that's fine. That's how it should be. Lots of people took shots at Jerry Krause in Chicago because he had Jordan and Pippen even with SIX championships. Penguins management took shit every year until Lemieux finally won a Cup. The Penguins in the Crosby era only escaped this because they won almost right away.

Nothing makes a stronger objective argument than “look how right I am sometimes”…

You know who else though going after Kane was a good idea?

Or who else thought trading for Bjugstad was a good idea?

Or who went out and grabbed a huge defensive upgrade, with term, while getting rid of a contract necessary to make it work, and the 2022 1st round pick?

The “I knew Strome was better than Pulju or Yamo” is just weird. Of course, he is better. Who doesn’t know that?

 

[JustNapalmIt]

Every Oiler forward going into the playoffs has 10+ goals.

Fire this son of a bitch.

Remember the rage over Janmark?
God knows Ive thought certain moves. Bad to be so certain over x, y or z move. And to cherry pick time and time again?

 

[Soundwave]

Almost everything you have said is a retrospective look.
Based on your posting (and this is grounded in facts/posts) with your evaluation of trades, signings & wannabe trades (with the benefit of hindsight and at the time, shockingly as unfair as that is), you would have made Chiarelli look like Sam Pollock in comparison.
Which makes your retrospective crystal ball opinions imo valueless. Because they are fantasy. Yet you post (of course in a retrospective view) as to you knew everything at the time and Holland is clueless. Which is clearly, certainly & manifestly bs.
In any event, Im out. Ive made my point (thankfully we still have Drai & Nurse, god forbid if we had Ekman Larsson & Strome instead, which you of course thought would be a good idea).
Have a great night.

You’ve made your point that you’re able to cherry pick 1 random post from 7 years ago and take it way out of context … doesn’t get much more “retrospective” than that.

Other than that just a bunch of whining. GMing a generational player is hard. Boo boo no one cares. The expectations are rightfully high. You think the Penguins didn’t take a ton of shit in the Lemieux era before they won?

And frankly a lot of that criticism was fair.

 

[JustNapalmIt]

You’ve made your point that you’re able to cherry pick 1 random post from 7 years ago and take it way out of context … doesn’t get much more “retrospective” than that.

Other than that just a bunch of whining. GMing a generational player is hard. Boo boo no one cares. The expectations are rightfully high. You think the Penguins didn’t take a ton of shit in the Lemieux era before they won?

And frankly a lot of that criticism was fair.

No no no. Youve done it time and time again. Trust me, you'd be the worst GM in Hockey history. Just your Reinhart trade and thinking an Ekman Larsson/Strome for Nurse/Drai would be good would do it (like you loved, absolutLy loved, the Puju signing. As did I. But then you railed about it after the fact.). But there are so many more.
Its all good. We all gotta history.
Just dont try to GM the Oilers.
Please.
Again Im out.

Btw, try to nut up and dont deny you said something beyond stupid such as the Nurse/Drai trade for Ekman Larsson/Strome. Just acknowledge that "yeah, that was an error". You said a poster fabricated it and dont have the cajones to acknowledge it was not. Bad form.

 

[Soundwave]

No no no. Youve done it time and time again. Trust me, you'd be the worst GM in Hockey history. Just your Reinhart trade and thinking an Ekman Larsson/Strome for Nurse/Drai would be good would do it (like you loved, absolutLy loved, the Puju signing. As did I. But then you railed about it after the fact.). But there are so many more.
Its all good. We all gotta history.
Just dont try to GM the Oilers.
Please.
Again Im out.

Btw, try to nut up and dont deny you said something beyond stupid such as the Nurse/Drai trade for Ekman Larsson/Strome. Just acknowledge that "yeah, that was an error". You said a poster fabricated it and dont have the cajones to acknowledge it was not. Bad form.

Show the Reinhart post genuniely interested in seeing that.

The Leon post is bullshit, I'm all for tough negotiation with anyone (even McDavid) ... the rumor at that time was Draisaitl wanted a contract very close to Connor and I made that to say f*** you, we'll ship anyone out if they think they can blackmail the team basically to get paid out the ass.

I've said the same thing about Bouchard, I'm fine with the player and have said he would be able to replace Barrie on the PP just fine this year when people were killing me on that. But does that mean we should bend over and pay Bouchard whatever he wants in the summer? f*** no. Hardball that mother f***er all day long. Noah Dobson signed 4mill x 3 ... I'd say you don't get any more than that, he has more points.

Generally though your whole of "U can'T taLK abOuT the Gm becUZ onE PoST I Founded Eight YeARS aGO that PrE DatES my AcCounT evEN" is pretty lame.

If you want to be upset about the argument that hoarding non-top 3 1st round picks is better than trading for help, then make it, personally I stand by that point. Ekholm helps the Oilers more than all the 1st round picks the Oilers have made post McDavid (8 years worth of picks). It's fair to ask maybe the whole strategy of never trading 1st round picks to get more immediate help wasn't the brightest strategy in the world. Patience is not always a virtue.

 

[JustNapalmIt]

Show the Reinhart post genuniely interested in seeing that.

Do your own homework. I'm not interested in being called a liar about the stupidest trade proposal ever, proving it, and having no mea culpa, but doubling down with disingenuous bs.
You said it. Together with some other beyond crazy hockey shit.
Im sure theres a logic to the bs. Like you say enough dumb shit, some is eventually going to be right. And then its like a little kid "see see see". Hoping (and knowing ) everybody has no idea about the bs.
Edgy, edgy stuff

 

[Ol' Jase]

Show the Reinhart post genuniely interested in seeing that.

The Leon post is bullshit, I'm all for tough negotiation with anyone (even McDavid) ... the rumor at that time was Draisaitl wanted a contract very close to Connor and I made that to say f*** you, we'll ship anyone out if they think they can blackmail the team basically to get paid out the ass.

I've said the same thing about Bouchard, I'm fine with the player and have said he would be able to replace Barrie on the PP just fine this year when people were killing me on that. But does that mean we should bend over and pay Bouchard whatever he wants in the summer? f*** no. Hardball that mother f***er all day long. Noah Dobson signed 4mill x 3 ... I'd say you don't get any more than that, he has more points.

Generally though your whole of "U can'T taLK abOuT the Gm becUZ onE PoST I Founded Eight YeARS aGO that PrE DatES my AcCounT evEN" is pretty lame.

If you want to be upset about the argument that hoarding non-top 3 1st round picks is better than trading for help, then make it, personally I stand by that point. Ekholm helps the Oilers more than all the 1st round picks the Oilers have made post McDavid (8 years worth of picks). It's fair to ask maybe the whole strategy of never trading 1st round picks to get more immediate help wasn't the brightest strategy in the world. Patience is not always a virtue.

Or there was a little more of a long term outlook and management wasn’t all that concerned that they needed your validation.

It’s staggering that you’re dying on this hill. We’re literally an elite team. Compare today to the opening day roster of the 2019-20. It’s completely rebuilt, as it needed to be.

You’re just committed to the bit at this point, and nothing more.

 

[Soundwave]

Do your own homework. I'm not interested in being called a liar about the stupidest trade proposal ever, proving it, and having no mea culpa, but doubling down with disingenuous bs.
You said it. Together with some other beyond crazy hockey shit.

Acknowledge the context and you can have your mea culpa otherwise no f***ing dice on that buddy.

Everyone here knows I am one of Draisaitl's biggest supporters and I didn't even want Hall gone, let alone Draisaitl.

If threads like this bother you so much that you need to dig through 60,000 posts from 7 years ago out of context to come up with your mea culpa, then maybe this thread ain't for you chief.

The GM is not your friend or buddy, he's not even "one of the boys on the the bus" ... it's not Davo and Drai baby and Kaner and Nuge and Kenny H., lol. GMs are suits, they're paid to do a job, hired to be fired, criticism is part of that job, criticism with a generational talent (maybe two of them) is 100% fair if you're into year 8 and you haven't even made the Finals yet.

If that blows your mind, OK, maybe go visit another thread but you don't get to police what people say or who gets to argue what. This is a message board, don't like the argument made, then make a counter point, going 7 years back to dig up an ancient post out of context isn't the flex you think it is.

U CouLDn'T gM is like saying no one on the board can criticize any player ever either because no one can play at an NHL level. It's a stupid argument to make on a hockey message board.

 

[Ol' Jase]

Acknowledge the context and you can have your mea culpa otherwise no f***ing dice on that buddy.

Everyone here knows I am one of Draisaitl's biggest supporters and I didn't even want Hall gone, let alone Draisaitl.

If threads like this bother you so much that you need to dig through 60,000 posts from 7 years ago out of context to come up with your mea culpa, then maybe this thread ain't for you chief.

The GM is not your friend or buddy, he's not even "one of the boys on the the bus" ... it's not Davo and Drai baby and Kaner and Nuge and Kenny H., lol. GMs are suits, they're paid to do a job, hired to be fired, criticism is part of that job, criticism with a generational talent (maybe two of them) is 100% fair if you're into year 8 and you haven't even made the Finals yet.

If that blows your mind, OK, maybe go visit another thread but you don't get to police what people say or who gets to argue what. This is a message board, don't like the argument made, then make a counter point, going 7 years back to dig up an ancient post out of context isn't the flex you think it is.

U CouLDn'T gM is like saying no one on the board can criticize any player ever either because no one can play at an NHL level. It's a stupid argument to make on a hockey message board.

So now you’re holding Holland accountable for the four years of McDavid he wasn’t here for.

Just wild beyond words at this point.