Fire Ken Holland: 2022-2023 edition

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Maybe he took long, but at the same time should've he went out and got Chychryn a year and half ago when he was first available?

The guy waited and found the right piece.

I mean he ideally should've upgraded the defense from the get-go. Once again, better late than never.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

This very much remains to be seen. The team is playing well and looks like a legit contender. My issue is that Holland took so long to address the defense. Better late than never, hope they go far. It's easy to forget how close the team was to disaster in last year's playoffs, praying there are no dire situations this year against lesser teams.

Holland wasn't willing to overpay for a good defenseman....I can only imagine the bitching about Holland if we overpaid to get Chychrun last offseason only to see him constantly injured this season

and that "near disaster" last year wasn't because of Holland...it was because the Oiler players finally decided to elevate their game

I think they wanted the 2023 1st a whole more judging by the hype this draft has frankly. Everyone and their grandma always say "we wanted this exact prospect!!!!" when they finalize a deal, lol, it's not some big deal.

LADISLAV SMID!!!!! was the exact prospect the Oilers apparently wanted from the Ducks in the Pronger deal, lol, like who cares. Had to have Smid!!!! They all say that shit afterwards.

The Preds knew Forsberg was done for the year and Josi was hurting too so they shut the season down and wanted as many 1st round picks or 1st round pick + equivalents they could get for Ekholm, and they got offered it by the Oilers, so they took it and ran. I doubt very much they'd have killed the deal if the Oilers insisted on the pick being Xavier Bourgault instead of Schaefer or even making the pick the 2024 1st instead of Schaefer.

why do you doubt this? from your years of experience in NHL management?

Bob Stauffer literally said this on Oilers Now but I'm supposed to believe some speculation by a poster on a message board

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Holland wasn't willing to overpay for a good defenseman....I can only imagine the bitching about Holland if we overpaid to get Chychrun last offseason only to see him constantly injured this season

and that "near disaster" last year wasn't because of Holland...it was because the Oiler player finally decided to elevate their game

If that happened, then sure. Again, I'm glad he got Ekholm. Campbell is still a bit of a bitter pill to swallow.

The team defense/goaltending was still suspect in last year's playoffs. Perhaps the Oilers underestimated the Kings a bit, McDavid pulled their fat out of the fire.

Let me alter my initial question slightly: If the Oilers lose in round one, someone needs to take the fall. Who should it be? Obviously it's dependent on what happens, but an early exit requires some accountability.

 

[Soundwave]

Holland wasn't willing to overpay for a good defenseman....I can only imagine the bitching about Holland if we overpaid to get Chychrun last offseason only to see him constantly injured this season

and that "near disaster" last year wasn't because of Holland...it was because the Oiler players finally decided to elevate their game


why do you doubt this? from your years of experience in NHL management?

Bob Stauffer literally said this on Oilers Now but I'm supposed to believe some speculation by a poster on a message board

I doubt it because every GM says the same shit, we say the same shit in every deal too. We wanted this exact prospect!!!! We said the same thing we traded for Pronger at all that jazz.

These management groups honestly don't know who is going to be a star. They have hopes, but they're all guessing and rolling the dice, no one in the league is that smart that they know exactly which prospect is going to hit with any super high degree of certainty, especially when you're talking about guys past the top 5-6 players in a draft class. There is a lot of luck involved.

Nashville wanted a 1st + 1st equivalent for Ekholm ... they got what they wanted. It didn't have to be ONLY SCHAEFER otherwise Ekholm is available to no one! lol. C'mon. Nashville set a price range and the Oilers matched it, and probably had some good fortune in Chychrun sucking the oxygen out of the room so much leaving us with out much competition to have to bid against.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

If that happened, then sure. Again, I'm glad he got Ekholm. Campbell is still a bit of a bitter pill to swallow.

The team defense/goaltending was still suspect in last year's playoffs. Perhaps the Oilers underestimated the Kings a bit, McDavid pulled their fat out of the fire.

then why did McDavid wait until Game 6 to pull that series out? so it's management fault they went down 3-2 in that series but not the players?

Let me alter my initial question slightly: If the Oilers lose in round one, someone needs to take the fall. Who should it be? Obviously it's dependent on what happens, but an early exit requires some accountability.

the players....they didn't execute

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

I doubt it because every GM says the same shit, we say the same shit in every deal too. We wanted this exact prospect!!!! We said the same thing we traded for Pronger at all that jazz.

These management groups honestly don't know who is going to be a star. They have hopes, but they're all guessing and rolling the dice, no one in the league is that smart that they know exactly which prospect is going to hit with any super high degree of certainty, especially when you're talking about guys past the top 5-6 players in a draft class. There is a lot of luck involved.

Nashville wanted a 1st + 1st equivalent for Ekholm ... they got what they wanted. It didn't have to be ONLY SCHAEFER otherwise Ekholm is available to no one! lol. C'mon.

lol, you have absolutely no clue...quit speculating what Poile wanted or didn't want in moving Ekholm

embarrassing

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

then why did McDavid wait until Game 6 to pull that series out? so it's management fault they went down 3-2 in that series but not the players?


the players....they didn't execute

McDavid was the leading playoff scorer at that point in the series. If you're relying on one player (one that the GM has nothing to do with, I might add) to save your bacon then you've got problems. If they lost that series there's no doubt in my mind Holland would be gone.

But just following this line of logic... It's the players' fault they lost the Hawks and Jets series too, right? You should already know who I blame for those series losses (Tippett), but it's the players' fault that they consistently had the second best goalie on the ice in those series, right?

Goaltending remains the biggest question mark of this team going into the playoffs. If goaltending costs them a series, do you think the players should be held accountable? Or do we send Stuart Skinner up the river?

 

[Soundwave]

lol, you have absolutely no clue...quit speculating what Poile wanted or didn't want in moving Ekholm

embarrassing

Whatever, heard this same shit before on this board with people saying "you have no clue, Chiarelli is a real NHL manager with Stanley Cup winning pedigree, who are you to criticize him! How dare you question the company line" ... and two years later they didn't have shit to say, lol.

Sorry I don't buy your logic that this year and this year only is the ONLY year in the last eight years where the Oilers could've traded draft picks to make the team better immediately and give McDavid and Draisaitl real help. The logic behind that is just stupid to begin with (there's only one good player available for picks every 8 years!).

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

McDavid was the leading playoff scorer at that point in the series. If you're relying on one player (one that the GM has nothing to do with, I might add) to save your bacon then you've got problems. If they lost that series there's no doubt in my mind Holland would be gone.

But just following this line of logic... It's the players' fault they lost the Hawks and Jets series too, right? You should already know who I blame for those series losses (Tippett), but it's the players' fault that they consistently had the second best goalie on the ice in those series, right?

absolutely...Mike Smith and Mikko Koskinen are terrible....Ethan Bear was dog shit against the Hawks and Klefbom was barely an NHLer at that point

in the Jets series, McDrai were held pointless in the first 2 games...who's fault was that?

Goaltending remains the biggest question mark of this team going into the playoffs. If goaltending costs them a series, do you think the players should be held accountable? Or do we send Stuart Skinner up the river?

no, you change up the mix and hope to get better

following your logic, should we fire a GM or coach every year we don't win the Cup? I mean, someone needs to be held accountable

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Whatever, heard this same shit before on this board with people saying "you have no clue, Chiarelli is a real NHL manager with Stanley Cup winning pedigree, who are you to criticize him! How dare you question the company line" ... and two years later they didn't have shit to say, lol.

Sorry I don't buy your logic that this year and this year only is the ONLY year in the last eight years where the Oilers could've traded draft picks to make the team better immediately and give McDavid and Draisaitl real help. The logic behind that is just stupid to begin with (there's only one good player available for picks every 8 years!).

I never said that at all but carry on pretending to know the ins and outs of NHL GMs and knowing that David Poile definitely would have taken a couple a draft picks instead of a 1st and Reid Schaeffer

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

absolutely...Mike Smith and Mikko Koskinen are terrible....Ethan Bear was dog shit against the Hawks and Klefbom was barely and NHLer

in the Jets series, McDrai were held pointless in the first 2 games...who's fault was that?


no, you change up the mix and hope to get better

following your logic, should we fire a GM or coach every year we don't win the Cup? I mean, someone needs to be held accountable

So who decided that a tandem of Mike Smith and Mikko Koskinen was good enough 3 years in a row? It didn't work in year 1, it didn't work in year 2 and I would also say that, despite making it to the WCF it didn't really work in year 3 either as Mike Smith melted into a puddle by the time we faced the Avs. In the Jets series, three of the four games were decided by one goal. On one hand you could say, yeah, McDavid and Draisatl didn't score. On the other, you could also say that nobody else did either (except the much maligned former winger).

As for the mix, we're in year 4 of Holland's mix. If Holland's mix fails again, then... well, I think you get the idea. And I've never once said to fire Holland if the team doesn't win the Cup. What I have said is that if the team fails to win a playoff series this year then he should be canned. You're not canning the coach (nor should you), you're not getting rid of any of the core players (again, nor should you), and shuffling the depth players hasn't worked in the last... well, basically since McDavid was drafted.

We didn't win the cup last year. Was it McDrai's fault? Because it seems to me those are the culprits in your eyes. Hopefully that's not the case.

 

[Soundwave]

I never said that at all but carry on pretending to know the ins and outs of NHL GMs and knowing that David Poile definitely would have taken a couple a draft picks instead of a 1st and Reid Schaeffer

Fine, but look the crux of the actual debate here is this

Was it smarter to use up 6/8 of Leon Draisiatl's contract years never moving a 1st round pick or looking at it now, was it probably smarter to move some of the picks we've had since 2015's McDavid selection and all the time in between then to get actual, proven NHL players to help McDavid and Draisaitl sooner?

What's more valuable? A Kailer Yamamoto or using up years of McDavid/Drai's prime to see if Yamamoto might be more than dime a dozen Klim Kostin tier player? Well you got your answer, was it worth the 5 years it took to get it?

Our team building M.O. was that we were going to keep every 1st round pick and play the 10% odds that the pick turns out to be a significant player, but I think that strategy ultimately was not the correct one. We should have been aggressively pursuing difference making players and spending our 1st round picks (or at least some of them) post 2015 to get the deals done much sooner than waiting until 2023 to finally pull the trigger on one.

 

[CupofOil]

Fine, but look the crux of the actual debate here is this

Was it smarter to use up 6/8 of Leon Draisiatl's contract years never moving a 1st round pick or looking at it now, was it probably smarter to move some of the picks we've had since 2015's McDavid selection and all the time in between then to get actual, proven NHL players to help McDavid and Draisaitl sooner?

What's more valuable? A Kailer Yamamoto or using up years of McDavid/Drai's prime to see if Yamamoto might be more than dime a dozen Klim Kostin tier player?

Our team building M.O. was that we were going to keep every 1st round pick and play the 10% odds that the pick turns out to be a stud player, but I think that strategy ultimately was not the correct one.

Or maybe the strategy was not to burn the 1st on a rental and wait for the right trade to come along when the team was closer to truly contending. It's not often that you see players like Ekholm, with term, become available so he struck when the opportunity presented itself which is what he stated from Day 1.

Holland inherited a mess, it was going to take more than a year or two to dig out of it. Before you say "He had McDavid and Draisaitl so he had everything he needed", it was a capped out team that finish bottom 10 two years in a row before he arrived so no simply having McDrai is not enough to build a contender.

It doesn't mean he didn't make mistakes but there's a reason why he didn't pull the trigger on trading the 1st before this season.

 

[bobbythebrain]

QUOTE="KeithIsActuallyBad, post: 189650321, member: 101534"]
Simple Q: if the Oilers fail to win a playoff round what would be the feeling about Holland? He had a great TDL, he did exactly what I wanted him to. But there’s still a long road ahead and nothing is guaranteed.
[/QUOTE]

Nothing. Not Hollands fault if the players decide to mail it in.

We've seen enough presidents teams play the complete opposite in the playoffs.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

We didn't win the cup last year. Was it McDrai's fault? Because it seems to me those are the culprits in your eyes. Hopefully that's not the case.

it was everyone's fault is my point and injuries didn't help either

you seem to want to pin it on one person for some reason

but there's no denying this is the best assembled team in Decades

 

[Soundwave]

Or maybe the strategy was not to burn the 1st on a rental and wait for the right trade to come along when the team was closer to truly contending. It's not often that you see players like Ekholm, with term, become available so he struck when the opportunity presented itself which is what he stated from Day 1.

Holland inherited a mess, it was going to take more than a year or two to dig out of it. Before you say "He had McDavid and Draisaitl so he had everything he needed", it was a capped out team that finish bottom 10 two years in a row before he arrived so no simply having McDrai is not enough to build a contender.

It doesn't mean he didn't make mistakes but there's a reason why he didn't pull the trigger on trading the 1st before this season.

"A year or two" specifically 2 years is a long time in pro sports, 2 years ago the Kraken didn't even exist now they're in the playoffs.

I think looking at the difference trading a 1st can make, it's a card the Oilers should've played a lot sooner.

Draft picks in all honesty unless they are a top 5 pick are more of a crap shoot and there's more luck involved than people want to admit. And even really past the top 3 it becomes very dicey.

I think we as an organization fell into the trap of believing in 1st round picks way too much. After you have like 4-5 1st round picks playing on your roster, really ... that's good enough. Like what realistically is the plan past that ... to have 7, 8, 9, 10 guys that are 1st round picks on your roster? Not even the top teams do that. It's a ridiculously slow way to build a roster.

Pittsburgh's traded like half the 1st round picks they had since getting Crosby and it was fine, I'm sure they'd rather have the 3 Cups.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

it was everyone's fault is my point and injuries didn't help either

you seem to want to pin it on one person for some reason

but there's no denying this is the best assembled team in Decades

But you seemed to blame McDrai for the Jets series for some reason.

In reality if anyone should lose their job it's Bob Nicholson but we know that won't happen.

It's also a lot easier to change the GM than change the roster especially given the lack of cap space. Thank God Duncan Keith retired or Ekholm never happens.

 

[CupofOil]

"A year or two" specifically 2 years is a long time in pro sports, 2 years ago the Kraken didn't even exist now they're in the playoffs.

I think looking at the difference trading a 1st can make, it's a card the Oilers should've played a lot sooner.

Draft picks in all honesty unless they are a top 5 pick are more of a crap shoot and there's more luck involved than people want to admit. And even really past the top 3 it becomes very dicey.

I think we as an organization fell into the trap of believing in 1st round picks way too much. After you have like 4-5 1st round picks playing on your roster, really ... that's good enough. Like what realistically is the plan past that ... to have 7, 8, 9, 10 guys that are 1st round picks on your roster? Not even the top teams do that. It's a ridiculously slow way to build a roster.

But why should they have pulled the trigger sooner? Did you think that the team was one player away the last few years? Did you see a player with term that was available that was worth giving up the pick for?

It's a cap system, 1st rounders/ELC's are valuable trade chips or potential cheap solutions, it's not a trade chip that should just be traded for the sake of making a trade. Dubas essentially traded 1sts for rentals and has nothing to show for it now, not even a 1st round win. Most deadline trades turn out poorly for the buyer especially because most are rentals. This deadline was a unique circumstance with good players with term being available and Holland finally struck.

 

[Soundwave]

But why should they have pulled the trigger sooner? Did you think that the team was one player away the last few years? Did you see a player with term that was available that was worth giving up the pick for?

It's a cap system, 1st rounders/ELC's are valuable trade chips or potential cheap solutions, it's not a trade chip that should just be traded for the sake of making a trade. Dubas essentially traded 1sts for rentals and has nothing to show for it now, not even a 1st round win. Most deadline trades turn out poorly for the buyer especially because most are rentals. This deadline was a unique circumstance with good players with term being available and Holland finally struck.

I think we should have followed a model more like the Penguins where they traded away plenty of 1st round picks, and you know what they don't give a flying f*** about it today.

People also underestimate how much just adding even "1 good player" can do to a team like McDavid/Draisaitl. They don't need much help. Last year basically they got Evander Kane (thank you Anna Kane for being nuts) and said "alright, well guess we'll just drag this team to a conference final".

So yeah I think there is a fair case to be made "well why weren't some better players like that added before?".

Nothing unreasonable about that at all.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

Lowetide caught me off guard the other day saying he doesn't think Holloway will be a top 6.

LT once went to the mat on Marc Anton Pouliot as a late bloom Jean Ratelle type career projection... right up until Pouliot basically began yodeling The Sound of Music in the Swiss league. I'd take the hot take with a heap of salt.

Holloway's production history shows a player who struggles in new high competition leagues and figures it out in his second year in these leagues. He lost a critical year as a first year pro with the wrist injury. He pushed through to a top six start out of training camp this year but again has his eyes opened as a rookie in this apex league. Finally getting consistent playing time in Bako and the production has come.

Now, I will say at this stage of mature organization development where the Oilers personnel is aligned to chase Cup runs, it is hard to project Holloway taking a top six wing job from Hyman, Nugent Hopkins, and Kane. Easy to see also the Oilers chasing another veteran top six RW to displace an inconsistent Yamamoto. But if Holloway percolates on this team as a big, fast puck hunting 3W with some ability to move at times to C, then that's a big Win for the organization to have cheap support skill to help tilt the ice deep in its forward deployment. Now, three years down the track, I don't think it's unrealistic to project a peak years Holloway moving up to a top six role.

Too early to put a ceiling on a player who's shown the processor ability and skills to figure things out at each level of play.

 

[AddyTheWrath]

I think we should have followed a model more like the Penguins where they traded away plenty of 1st round picks, and you know what they don't give a flying f*** about it today.

People also underestimate how much just adding even "1 good player" can do to a team like McDavid/Draisaitl. They don't need much help. Last year basically they got Evander Kane (thank you Anna Kane for being nuts) and said "alright, well guess we'll just drag this team to a conference final".

So yeah I think there is a fair case to be made "well why weren't some better players like that added before?".

Nothing unreasonable about that at all.

They didn’t just get Evander Kane. They got Zach Hyman, Ryan McLeod, Jay Woodcroft, Evan Bouchard, and a bunch of other players that made an impact. You can’t add all of those pieces in just 1 year unless you have a pipeline to draw from.

Also, it’s pretty easy to say “just throw all your first rounders out to improve the team now”, but what happens if we don’t win anyway in the next 3 years? We have no one to call up for cheap depth in the playoffs (Holloway, Broberg, etc), no one to fill in once some of our older players move on or get reduced roles, and our team is completely devoid of talent if McDavid and/or Draisaitl choose to leave, god forbid.

What is convincing the big guys to stay if they don’t win in the next 3 years and our cupboards are all but ravaged and destroyed?

 

[Soundwave]

But why should they have pulled the trigger sooner? Did you think that the team was one player away the last few years? Did you see a player with term that was available that was worth giving up the pick for?

It's a cap system, 1st rounders/ELC's are valuable trade chips or potential cheap solutions, it's not a trade chip that should just be traded for the sake of making a trade. Dubas essentially traded 1sts for rentals and has nothing to show for it now, not even a 1st round win. Most deadline trades turn out poorly for the buyer especially because most are rentals. This deadline was a unique circumstance with good players with term being available and Holland finally struck.

You can trade 1sts for players with term every year, there's nothing that special that this year was the only year it was possible.

If you're willing to put your 1st (in this case the Oilers put basically TWO 1sts on the table), lots of teams will be willing to pick up the phone and talk any time.

The Oilers didn't want to ever do that before, the only reason it was done this year and is because they can hear the clock ticking on Draisaitl's deal and McDavid put up a generational season and they can't possibly save face by telling him and the Edmonton media they couldn't get a deal done to help him out this year.

It would not fly even in this market where the media sucks the management's balls. Even Stauffer was saying flat out they needed to do something big this year in the weeks leading up to the deadline, and he's the team media mouthpiece but even he wouldn't let them off the hook if they didn't finally make a big deal.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

But you seemed to blame McDrai for the Jets series for some reason.

In reality if anyone should lose their job it's Bob Nicholson but we know that won't happen.

It's also a lot easier to change the GM than change the roster especially given the lack of cap space. Thank God Duncan Keith retired or Ekholm never happens.

I mean they are...their job is to score and they didn't

 

[Soundwave]

They didn’t just get Evander Kane. They got Zach Hyman, Ryan McLeod, Jay Woodcroft, Evan Bouchard, and a bunch of other players that made an impact. You can’t add all of those pieces in just 1 year unless you have a pipeline to draw from.

Also, it’s pretty easy to say “just throw all your first rounders out to improve the team now”, but what happens if we don’t win anyway in the next 3 years? We have no one to call up for cheap depth in the playoffs (Holloway, Broberg, etc), no one to fill in once some of our older players move on or get reduced roles, and our team is completely devoid of talent if McDavid and/or Draisaitl choose to leave, god forbid.

What is convincing the big guys to stay if they don’t win in the next 3 years and our cupboards are all but ravaged and destroyed?

I dunno ask Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin, they've been in Pittsburgh for what 16 years? They've talent always put in around them over and over again, have they not?

Can only win 1 Cup? Why here's a THIRD guy who's a franchise star for you to play with, go get two more. MAF not good enough, here we'll just pull Matt Murray out of our ass. Would you like to play with Jarome Iginla?

I think once you get 3-4 stars out of the 1st round you're good. You don't need to keep going back to the well or collecting 1st round picks like a fat 40 year old collecting Pokemon cards. Even if it works out in the best case scenario, like what is the plan, you're going to sign all of those players to $9 million dollar contracts?

We totally fell in love too hard with the concept that picking 1st round picks would solve all the team issues, when really actually none of the 1st round picks on this team have solved even 1 issue the team had (like even Bouchard, we would've been good with Barrie too who does basically the same exact thing that we got for 0 asset cost).

The best pick the Oilers have made in the last 8 years since getting McDavid is probably picking Stuart Skinner in the 3rd round. So like he's made more of a difference on this team than all the 1st round guys. You don't need to worship at the altar of 1st round picks. Once you got a few really, really good ones (which we did) move on already sheesh, get on with the business of actual team building.

 

[HockeyGuy1964]

Ok, lol don't debate any of the points because I think you know you can't.

What do the Oilers have to show for Puljujarvi? Nothing likely.

Yamamoto? Likely nothing after this summer when they probably have to dump him to clear cap that he's not worth.

Even players like Holloway, I like this player, but really ... how much better is this player likely to be over a Vrana type reclaimation project? Is this a star in the making player or another Yamamoto tier guy?

If that is the reason you held off on giving McDavid real help for 7 years (the maybe 10% chance that a Yamamoto or Holloway will break out to be a star player) ... that logic is just stupid IMO.

We can see here and now how much an impact a player like Ekholm makes ... were the two 1st round picks the Oilers trading out (Reid Schaefer + this year's 1st) likely to ever be as impactful? I doubt it.

You're delusional.

You keep bringing up stuff that happened 2-5 years before Holland even got here in a thread about firing Holland like that was his fault.

JFC dude.