Fire Ken Holland: 2022-2023 edition

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Fire Ken Holland?


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I remember reading a lot of posters on these forums wanting us to move on from rnh and to either let him go or to trade him. Glad we are keeping him for life
TBF, the talk in that thread was signing him long term, 6-8 years & giving him a raise to the 7.5M AAV range.

Some of us were saying they just can't give him both. Pretty sure everyone was happy with the outcome & even happier now.
 
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Wrong thread.

Edit: the only time I've ever posted in this dumb thread
 
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This team was left in a disaster state after the Chiarelli strip mining final days were Ol' Yellered mercy euthanized. It's taken three+ years and epic loss of 2 top 4 defenders (Klefbom, Larsson) to stage out building depth at all positions, forward, defense and goaltending. The trade deadline finally added that top end veteran d-man and pterodactyl sized utility bottom right shooting centreman/winger.

We now see the big, rangy d-corp that Holland prefers. High quality forwards depth that extends scoring options well beyond McDavid and Draisaitl along with a bigger, more versatile skilled bottom six who are not leaky and vulnerable to outscoring by opposition. Found gold with rookie Skinner in net while the big money veteran tender struggles massively. And a savvy early extension to Skinner to lock in a value battery mate tandem goaltender price for the next 3 window years. Not every GM move will be good, it's simply not realistic and impossible, but Holland has navigated this franchise to be a legitimate, deep team from the mess left him. The Oil were in big trouble and in the wrong hands could have seriously gone pear shape.

Some posters speculated Holland would have an intrusive management approach with a rookie coach. That some of Woodcroft's personnel decisions would be driven from above with a meddling Holland. The quotes below and article link reinforce Holland's management philosophy which have steered him well through a long career. I think his relationship skills, trust, communication and respect (including boundaries) are among the best attributes that have enabled a long, successful career.

It's great to finally come out the other end of an epic decade of incompetence. Holland's steady, respected approach is a massive part in finally putting the pieces together for sustaining success.

“I told Woody (coach Jay Woodcroft) when I hired him his mandate as a coach is to win and I would manage around whatever decisions he made,” said Holland. “He doesn’t have to play a certain player because he’s a draft pick. He doesn’t have to play a certain player because I signed him (as a free agent). He doesn’t have to play anybody because I traded for him.”

“Most nights, Philip is playing closer to 10 minutes if we’re dressing seven defencemen. Jay likes the 11-7 and sometimes in a game maybe somebody (defencemen) isn’t playing so good or somebody gets hurt, then he’s got that defenceman (Broberg) there,” said Holland.

“I guess my response is we’re trying to win. If the coaches, (Dave) Manson and Jay feel we’re better served if it’s Broberg or somebody else who only plays four minutes, so be it.”

Holland is the ultimate, extremely patient GM, especially with blueliners.

“It’s a tough job especially for kids, whether you’re a defenceman or a first-round pick (and not playing much). Broberg’s got aspirations to pitch in and provide some offence. But what’s happening with Philip … it’s like (Evan) Bouchard two years ago.”

“He (Broberg) wants a bigger role and I’m sure he would like to be playing 15 minutes and I think we’d be fine with that. But practising every day with us, we think he’ll be ready to get in the games. If we get an injury to a defenceman, he’s going in (top six). We’re trying to keep his feet wet.”

 
That's right.

Another bottom 6 forward group that can't piss a drop offensively
Another d-core that can't defend
Another starting goaltender that can't make a save.
Another season wasting the careers of two of the best players in the world.

Year after year the exact same weaknesses and the same inability to properly address them.







p.jpg
 
Trade for Ekholm cements him as the man for the job. Legendary Patience.
Winning a cup will cement him as the man for the job.

Let’s wait to see how the team performs in the patience before we dub him a hero.

The Ekholm trade was good though. I’ll give him that.
 
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Winning a cup will cement him as the man for the job.

Let’s wait to see how the team performs in the patience before we dub him a hero.

The Ekholm trade was good though. I’ll give him that.
This is beyond comical. Only winning a Cup means hes been a good GM. And Woody a good coach.
Well, I guess with those thresholds you are virtually never wrong . Which of course has been proven oh so many times you almost always are.
 
This is beyond comical. Only winning a Cup means hes been a good GM. And Woody a good coach.
Well, I guess with those thresholds you are virtually never wrong . Which of course has been proven oh so many times you almost always are.
With the best player since Lemieux, yes, only winning a cup is good enough.

I’ve never said anything about Woodcroft though. He seems like a good coach.
 
The funny thing is , if the knee jerkers had their way we would be bereft of prospects and draft picks. And traded Draisaitl and a #1 for Subban some time ago.

With the best player since Lemieux, yes, only winning a cup is good enough.

I’ve never said anything about Woodcroft though. He seems like a good coach.

Yes, its not on the players. Good point. Great insight.
 
With the best player since Lemieux, yes, only winning a cup is good enough.

I’ve never said anything about Woodcroft though. He seems like a good coach.
Yes, its logic like this that gets you Chiarelli as Oiler GM.
 
I'll give him credit, the Ekholm move looks like a real deal big dick move from a good GM.

The only thing that sorta pisses me off about it, is we really should've been moving draft picks out before now (McDavid's 8th season!) to get impact players like this instead we had management group after management group sitting there with a thumb up their ass. We could've done moves like this 3-4 years ago but were too chicken shit to do it.

Also I really, really wish we had dumped Yamamoto for Jakub Vrana at 50%, that would've made the trade deadline a home run. Hopefully Yamo actually does something in the playoffs this time.
 
I'll give him credit, the Ekholm move looks like a real deal big dick move from a good GM.

The only thing that sorta pisses me off about it, is we really should've been moving draft picks out before now (McDavid's 8th season!) to get impact players like this instead we had management group after management group sitting there with a thumb up their ass. We could've done moves like this 3-4 years ago but were too chicken shit to do it.

Also I really, really wish we had dumped Yamamoto for Jakub Vrana at 50%, that would've made the trade deadline a home run. Hopefully Yamo actually does something in the playoffs this time.
Man, I hope you apply to the Flames & get their GM job.

I never realized just how easy this GMing gig was until I started reading your posts.

A GM walks into a building that has 1 playoff appearance in 13 years but is also somehow tight against the cap, with a lot of players nobody really wants, but you'd have fixed it overnight.

Yeah, let's trade all our draft picks & take on more salary when we're already against the cap. Just comical. Of course, this is under the assumption that the players we would bring in would also need to be paid.

Then you add a made up scenario so you can get mad at Holland again. Did Holland turn down that Yamo proposal or something? How do you know Holland didn't make that exact proposal, or even a little more for Vrana, & the other GM turned it down? Serious question.
 
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Man, I hope you apply to the Flames & get their GM job.

I never realized just how easy this GMing gig was until I started reading your posts.

A GM walks into a building that has 1 playoff appearance in 13 years but is also somehow tight against the cap, with a lot of players nobody really wants, but you'd have fixed it overnight.

Yeah, let's trade all our draft picks & take on more salary when we're already against the cap. Just comical. Of course, this is under the assumption that the players we would bring in would also need to be paid.

Then you add a made up scenario so you can get mad at Holland again. Did Holland turn down that Yamo proposal or something? How do you know Holland didn't make that exact proposal, or even a little more for Vrana, & the other GM turned it down? Serious question.
Hey, this is HF Boards. Where the smart guys know all the right moves. Which are easy of course. Because Oilers are the only team in the league. Its even easier cause the smart guys are all insiders and know whose offering what, who will come here, so of course Holland should be able to get those guys.
They live in fantasyland and fabricate these trades that Holland should have made and the players he could have got..
 
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Man, I hope you apply to the Flames & get their GM job.

I never realized just how easy this GMing gig was until I started reading your posts.

A GM walks into a building that has 1 playoff appearance in 13 years but is also somehow tight against the cap, with a lot of players nobody really wants, but you'd have fixed it overnight.

Yeah, let's trade all our draft picks & take on more salary when we're already against the cap. Just comical. Of course, this is under the assumption that the players we would bring in would also need to be paid.

Then you add a made up scenario so you can get mad at Holland again. Did Holland turn down that Yamo proposal or something? How do you know Holland didn't make that exact proposal, or even a little more for Vrana, & the other GM turned it down? Serious question.

He walked into a job with the best player in 30 years and on top of that the 2nd best player in the world, comparing that to what the Oilers did with in the Hall era or whatever is irrelevant.

And yes, we should have helped McDavid earlier instead of sitting around waiting 5-6 years to find out players like Puljujarvi and Yamamoto aren't actually any good.

We definitely wasted a window with McDavid earlier in his career to compete because we worship 1st round picks as if every one of them is going to turn out to be a star player when the reality is outside of top 3 picks, a lot of 1st round picks don't ever really work out to be anything that special.

The Wings got basically nothing for Vrana ... a 7th round pick and an AHL prospect who I believe is an undrafted player. That's literally peanuts.

Who here would be upset if we made a Ekholm type deal 2 or 3 years ago? Traded our 1st for a d-man or established impact forward that could make a huge difference without doing it in a stupid way (like giving away Hall, who was an established player on the team, for Larsson). Who here right now is still devastated we traded a 1st + Schaefer for Ekholm as is? Nobody.

Truth be told I think you're better off just picking up reclaimation 1st round pick projects like Klim Kostin (how much better really are Yamamoto or Puljujarvi than this player?) or Jakub Vrana available for peanuts (likely better than Yamamoto) and letting some other team gamble on those picks and take your chances with an established player. The Oilers in the 90s basically did this ... they didn't draft great, but were able to pick up guys like Doug Weight, Bill Guerin, Mike Grier, later Raffi Torres, etc. who were better than what their 1st round picks were.
 
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He walked into a job with the best player in 30 years and on top of that the 2nd best player in the world, comparing that to what the Oilers did with in the Hall era or whatever is irrelevant.

And yes, we should have helped McDavid earlier instead of sitting around waiting 5-6 years to find out players like Puljujarvi and Yamamoto aren't actually any good.

We definitely wasted a window with McDavid earlier in his career to compete because we worship 1st round picks as if every one of them is going to turn out to be a star player when the reality is outside of top 3 picks, a lot of 1st round picks don't ever really work out to be anything that special.

The Wings got basically nothing for Vrana ... a 7th round pick and an AHL prospect who I believe is an undrafted player. That's literally peanuts.

Who here would be upset if we made a Ekholm type deal 2 or 3 years ago? Traded our 1st for a d-man or established impact forward that could make a huge difference without doing it in a stupid way (like giving away Hall, who was an established player on the team, for Larsson). Who here right now is still devastated we traded a 1st + Schaefer for Ekholm as is? Nobody.

Truth be told I think you're better off just picking up reclaimation 1st round pick projects like Klim Kostin (how much better really are Yamamoto or Puljujarvi than this player?) or Jakub Vrana available for peanuts (likely better than Yamamoto) and letting some other team gamble on those picks and take your chances with an established player. The Oilers in the 90s basically did this ... they didn't draft great, but were able to pick up guys like Doug Weight, Bill Guerin, Mike Grier, later Raffi Torres, etc. who were better than what their 1st round picks were.
Everyone, this what PTSD from the DOD looks like.
 
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Everyone, this what PTSD from the DOD looks like.

Ok, lol don't debate any of the points because I think you know you can't.

What do the Oilers have to show for Puljujarvi? Nothing likely.

Yamamoto? Likely nothing after this summer when they probably have to dump him to clear cap that he's not worth.

Even players like Holloway, I like this player, but really ... how much better is this player likely to be over a Vrana type reclaimation project? Is this a star in the making player or another Yamamoto tier guy?

If that is the reason you held off on giving McDavid real help for 7 years (the maybe 10% chance that a Yamamoto or Holloway will break out to be a star player) ... that logic is just stupid IMO.

We can see here and now how much an impact a player like Ekholm makes ... were the two 1st round picks the Oilers trading out (Reid Schaefer + this year's 1st) likely to ever be as impactful? I doubt it.
 
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He walked into a job with the best player in 30 years and on top of that the 2nd best player in the world, comparing that to what the Oilers did with in the Hall era or whatever is irrelevant.

And yes, we should have helped McDavid earlier instead of sitting around waiting 5-6 years to find out players like Puljujarvi and Yamamoto aren't actually any good.

We definitely wasted a window with McDavid earlier in his career to compete because we worship 1st round picks as if every one of them is going to turn out to be a star player when the reality is outside of top 3 picks, a lot of 1st round picks don't ever really work out to be anything that special.

The Wings got basically nothing for Vrana ... a 7th round pick and an AHL prospect who I believe is an undrafted player. That's literally peanuts.

Who here would be upset if we made a Ekholm type deal 2 or 3 years ago? Traded our 1st for a d-man or established impact forward that could make a huge difference without doing it in a stupid way (like giving away Hall, who was an established player on the team, for Larsson). Who here right now is still devastated we traded a 1st + Schaefer for Ekholm as is? Nobody.

Truth be told I think you're better off just picking up reclaimation 1st round pick projects like Klim Kostin (how much better really are Yamamoto or Puljujarvi than this player?) or Jakub Vrana available for peanuts (likely better than Yamamoto) and letting some other team gamble on those picks and take your chances with an established player. The Oilers in the 90s basically did this ... they didn't draft great, but were able to pick up guys like Doug Weight, Bill Guerin, Mike Grier, later Raffi Torres, etc. who were better than what their 1st round picks were.
Its comical again you go on about Vrana. Coming up with a fantasyland trade as to what we could have got him for. Clearly having zero idea about the value of cap space.
It just goes on & on. Of course, you're the guy who:
1) really thought we should bridge Drai. Yeah, that would have been a good plan.
2) was pumped that we signed Puju for 3 Mil
3)Thought we should give up picks to get rid of Foegle
4).......etc

Theres a million of them.
I really like this one though:

If his agent is being really unreasonable, this is the type of type I'd think long and hard about.

Leon Draisaitl
Darnell Nurse

for

Oliver Ekman Larsson
Dylan Strome
 
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Its comical again you go on about Vrana. Coming up with a fantasyland trade as to what we could have got him for. Clearly having zero idea about the value of cap space.
It just goes on & on. Of course, you're the guy who:
1) really thought we should bridge Drai. Yeah, that would have been a good plan.
2) was pumped that we signed Puju for 3 Mil
3)Thought we should give up picks to get rid of Foegle
4).......etc

Theres a million of them.

When did I say we should bridge Draisaitl? When was that even an option? Unless you are talking signing him after 15-16? But in that case the Oilers probably would've gotten him signed for like $6 million per (same as RNH, same as Hall) ... are you gonna argue against that? That would've been an unbelievable move if the Oilers had been smart enough to sign him at that point.

Since you clearly remember every proposal I make do you remember I suggested Bjugstad here before anyone? lol.

I'm fine that we have a borderline Cup contending team finally. But it shouldn't have taken EIGHT f***ING YEARS to get here either. That's not unfair to say, anyone defending that is just boot licking shit management.

And since you also remember everything I say, I was on Chiarelli's ass well before most of this board, now everyone does "dur hur, of course Chiarelli was bad" when half of y'all were sniffing his butt crack and not realizing how much damage was being done and saying I should tone down my criticism of him. Until of course it became blatantly obvious that I wasn't exaggerating at all. The fact is Chiarelli had a lot of support here, I took a lot of shit from people here blasting him years before the rest of the board sobered up and realized "yeah ... actually he is that bad" (finally). I was his no.1 critic here.

And yes, I will stand my ground on saying we f***ed up by sitting around waiting to see if middling players like Puljujarvi, Yamamoto, etc. would pan out instead of being aggressive and moving picks for established impact making players to give McDavid and Draisaitl help sooner. The proof is in the pudding right now ... Ekholm makes more of an impact (way more) on this team than Puljujarvi, Yamamoto, Holloway, even Bouchard etc. combined, but we needed to wait years and years before finally figuring this out?

We should have been on the ball and doing stuff like that years ago.
 
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When did I say we should bridge Draisaitl? When was that even an option? Unless you are talking signing him after 15-16? But in that case the Oilers probably would've gotten him signed for like $6 million per (same as RNH, same as Hall) ... are you gonna argue against that? That would've been an unbelievable move if the Oilers had been smart enough to sign him at that point.

Since you clearly remember every proposal I make do you remember I suggested Bjugstad here before anyone? lol.

I'm fine that we have a borderline Cup contending team finally. But it shouldn't have taken EIGHT f***ING YEARS to get here either. That's not unfair to say, anyone defending that is just boot licking shit management.

And since you also remember everything I say, I was on Chiarelli's ass well before most of this board, now everyone does "dur hur, of course Chiarelli was bad" when half of y'all were sniffing his butt crack and not realizing how much damage was being done and saying I should tone down my criticism of him. Until of course it became blatantly obvious that I wasn't exaggerating at all. The fact is Chiarelli had a lot of support here, I took a lot of shit from people here blasting him years before the rest of the board sobered up and realized "yeah ... actually he is that bad" (finally). I was his no.1 critic here.

And yes, I will stand my ground on saying we f***ed up by sitting around waiting to see if middling players like Puljujarvi, Yamamoto, etc. would pan out instead of being aggressive and moving picks for established impact making players to give McDavid and Draisaitl help sooner. The proof is in the pudding right now ... Ekholm makes more of an impact (way more) on this team than Puljujarvi, Yamamoto, Holloway, even Bouchard etc. combined, but we needed to wait years and years before finally figuring this out?

We should have been on the ball and doing stuff like that years ago.
Pumped about Puju. Wanted to pay to get rid of Foegle.
 
Ok, lol don't debate any of the points because I think you know you can't.

What do the Oilers have to show for Puljujarvi? Nothing likely.

Yamamoto? Likely nothing after this summer when they probably have to dump him to clear cap that he's not worth.

Even players like Holloway, I like this player, but really ... how much better is this player likely to be over a Vrana type reclaimation project? Is this a star in the making player or another Yamamoto tier guy?

If that is the reason you held off on giving McDavid real help for 7 years (the maybe 10% chance that a Yamamoto or Holloway will break out to be a star player) ... that logic is just stupid IMO.

We can see here and now how much an impact a player like Ekholm makes ... were the two 1st round picks the Oilers trading out (Reid Schaefer + this year's 1st) likely to ever be as impactful? I doubt it.
Debate what points? You just regurgitate the same arguments over and over while trying to sound like the smartest in the room.

I’d be surprised if more than a handful of posters even read your novels
 
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